Dating norms need to change

[gallaetha_matt]

Just kill a bear in front of her, it's easy. The bear can even be in on it if he's a good enough actor.

By bear I mean the animal, not a hairy gay guy. You do not want to mix those two up, you might be exacerbating your problems if you do.

 

[McGuinty1]

OP is PROBABLY not the best person to start this thread, but from what I can figure out, hes asking why does *in a sense* does a guy do all the work, all the surprising while the women just sits there judging each attempt? I'll quote myself for a second.

" I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp."

And Men DO have rights, not all guys are horrible monsters and not everyone in the gender should be treated like their horrible monsters.

Anyways, could you answer the OPs question from what I got out of it?

Fair enough. I guess I was mainly responding to this particular quote from the OP:

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

This, combined with his caveat about sweeping generalizations drawn from his own admittedly limited experience and knowledge, made my carefully calibrated horseshit-meter spike into the red. What the OP is really asking, though I am 100% sure he doesn't know it himself, is why the traditional gender roles forced on him since birth, place such an apparent outsize financial and emotional burden on him (and by extension, most men) during courtship. However, he selfishly fails to consider that those same roles place an equal, if not much larger burden on women in the form of body image, behaviour, social acceptance, and even that same "control" that frustrates him so. Does he think that women enjoy having to fight off the unwanted advances of some horny dude who they're trying to get to know as a person?

Therein lies the big problem with the OP: he has asked some perfectly valid questions that have important implications regarding traditional gender roles and their place in modern society, but it seems like he is asking them for all the wrong reasons. Just look at the thread title: it's "Dating norms need to change", not "Girls need to start asking ME out and paying for MY dinner once in a while". Societal pressures are the culprit, and both women and men are victims of circumstance and history.

Oh, and of course men have rights, more than they know what to do with, but there is a whole group of middle class white dudes who think that feminists and minorities are out to get them and want to dominate them and infringe on all those rights. You will find many of them on Reddit at r/MensRights, and they seem to be some of the worst people on the face of the earth. I have personally witnessed some of them saying that the female victims of a multiple murder perpetrated by some other middle-class white prick, had it coming to them for oppressing the guy, if not just outright cheering on the spilling of feminist blood.

They also use the term "femi-nazi" completely unironically.

 

[khantron]

This thread is indication that nerd culture may have a bit of a misogyny problem. Especially the rapey original post. But It's good that there have been a number of people who called him out.

 

[Erana]

So, this is a lot to read through and I'm finding some of it really confusing since, well, I find dating really confusing, but I feel like saying a bit of my own here because of some things I have read others say:
As a guy who is rather shy, and utterly focused on not doing anything wrong, and not very experienced in dating or even being social, I've found that:
- Girls really need to start making the first move sometimes, or at least consider it. If you are attracted to a guy and he's shy to the point of being functionally asexual, maybe you should be the one to say something. (Hello, personal experience!)
- The norms should probably go "girls always have total control over the physical aspects of a date unless they explicitly mandate otherwise". Even as a guy who is not interested in getting physical contact with as many girls as possible, if I'm with someone I really like my mind is going to go to sex, and I think that's the case with the large majority of men. While I don't think girls are completely without lust or anything, that would be silly, the most socially, culturally, and decent thing would be, I believe, to let them have the lead. Though I do think they should have more of the lead than they tend to take, but that's partly just because of my own inabilities.

As far as money goes, I think every date should end with a possibly-cutesy fight over who gets to pay.

Please don't use the phrase, "functionally asexual." It just confuses the matter on what actual asexuality is.

Still, though, women shouldn't just have control over the physical relations on a date. Men should be given the same level of respect on the matter as women. I feel like there is this social pressure forced upon men where they have to want as much sex as possible, and this really shouldn't be. A man should have just as much a right to say no and people should respect whenever they do so out of even the slightest bit of discomfort.
Not to imply that you were saying that men shouldn't have this privilege, I just feel like when these sorts of things are being discussed, its something that should be said just to put it out there because it isn't said enough.

Still, its tough to lead with shy people in general, but with shy guys, there's not much of a social precedent for it, so I expect a lot of women would be afraid of being too pushy, with the lack of general use, subtle male signals for being uncomfortable in a romantic situation.
So to the shy guys: be clear on what you do and do not like, and try to not express it too personally. Say matter-of-factly, "I have a fear of heights," when they suggest a roller coaster, rather than, "please don't take me there."
Directing a social situation with a male is something a woman is socially discouraged from, so you have to give her the confidence to do so. And don't feel pressured to disagree or say no- if she's an emotionally healthy individual, this would come as a good sign, because she knows she isn't walking all over you.

I do feel for the shy guy- a lot of my male friends are quiet. And at the notion of dating one of them, this the biggest thing that I would want them to contribute to make me able to be my best for them on a date.
Except that I, personally, am a bit boring and would make a terrible date lead unless they liked museums.

 

[aidutcher]

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I actually found this to be quite helpful in answering questions like the ones you posed:
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

 

[spartan231490]

I disagree. The roles are known, yeah they kinda suck, but they are known. Also, no one freaks out when it happens in the other direction, so I don't really see any reason that anything needs to change. Sure it would be nice if there was a little more equality, but I don't see it as a problem as long as it's ok for it to happen the other way around, and in my experience it's fine when it does.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Women are usually `in control` like that because if a dude was it'd be a hand up the shirt before he said hi.

Spoiler: incoming sarcasm

just kidding.

OT: Meh i've seen it happen both ways to be honest, it might still lean just a tad bit more to girls waiting for guys to make the first move, but it's getting much more even than it was 10,20,30 years ago, however just be yourself (well, a semi-confident version of yourself, that shows your proud of who you are and that your perfectly happy being right there in the moment with that special someone.) and if things don't work out, then just gotta wait for the next pretty lass you have might have a connection with comes along.

oh and if you haven't noticed OP, traditions..well, they are a fickle thing sometimes, pretty hard to break in a fast and appropriate manner =\

 

[Mad World]

How often does a girl make the first move?

After several months I finally decided to make the first move with my girlfriend, and she said she knew I had feelings for her and wanted me to make that move months ago. After I do, she practically (and literally, actually) jumps all over me.

Why couldn't she have made a move earlier? Why was this exclusively my responsibility when she so clearly had some extremely strong feelings and knew I had similar ones?

I don't understand why these rules are in place. They're crippling if the male is indecisive or simply not bold enough.

So true. I'm sick of the traditional idea that guys have to make the first move. And that they have to pay. It's just dumb.

 

[Icehearted]

Spoiler: snipped

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I actually found this to be quite helpful in answering questions like the ones you posed:
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

The title alone cracked me up. The blog itself seems to only further prove my point though :/

 

[Aprilgold]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

Erm, no, thats why the analogy up at the top of the speech said
"Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp." Because like guys, some are major pricks, and some are very nice, but many are / were mean to me for many years in increasing numbers of severity. I can probably reword the top of the phrase for it to make more sense, but, again, I see it as a rose among a rosebush sort of deal, but thats my personal view. Hell, what is my first sentence of me quoting that person.
"I can't count how many times that is wrong with me" Read that a few times, it says WITH ME, and this thread has been making sweeping generalizations the whole bloody time, why is my post anger such wrath.

Again, I could reword that better, but, once again its a personal view of mine, and I may be a ass for saying it, but a lot of my friends do so much for each of their gals and never gets a single thank you from them, and many times they lie and say their going to leave him if he doesn't do X thing, they have done some very extreme thing for each of their chicks, but don't get much thanks for any of it. Madam, I'm not insulting women, Roses are symbolic for being both pretty and bright, however, the stem is covered in thorns, this basically is symbolic for basically standing for that their pretty, bright *smart* but can be hard to grasp *fall in love with / be mean* this is not a insult, as it is very symbolic of how women have treated me throughout my life.

Sorry, but I meant no offense by it, only I should probably try and grow better at using symbolism to my advantage in writing.

Let me quote you here" Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free."
I'd say that's pretty damn negative a thing to say about women.

Its is, and I'll hone up to that, but that was one particular instance, and again, pointing it out again, I was responding to a specific thing the person I quoted said, which was "Women are Delicate Flowers." Thus I brought out several instances to try and prove the contrary.

And while we're being literary snobs, its "They're" and you're missing a conjunction. I know very well what you're trying to say here, and that meaning is part of what I have issue with.
Women are people, and if you have a problem with the social interactions you're involved in, do something about it for Christ's sake. Go find new friends, try looking elsewhere for people to go out with, actively work on your social skills. You're an American male, and from the sounds of it, an American male not of any minority that would incur discrimination and hate crimes. Take advantage of that.

No, but hearing that my sexual preference is wrong / evil and sinful is evil, lets not get sidetracked. I do not know those people anymore, and those instances were years ago, however, with friends, it is recent. I know a gal that is also dating a slimeball, if that helps.

Yeah, people can be jerks, but after a certain point, you can't go blaming everyone

Sorry to cut you off here, but I was once again, responding to the phrase "women are delicate flowers" and as such did not mean to give off that impression, please continue.

else for the way you're treated. Women don't just fall in love willy-nilly because some men were just born "right" while others were born "wrong." You need to make yourself desireable to the kind of woman who will respect who you are, as a friend and partner, and keep looking for those kind of women until you find one who is looking for a relationship.

Yeah, you're blatantly bitter, but for God's sake, at least take it out on the people who actually did something instead of all women.

Pointing out TO MY OWN STATEMENT AGAIN, THIS APPLIES TO ME, its my view on the ones that have been in my life, women have done some miraculous and impeachable things, the ones in my life have all treated people who I cared about like either a hunk of meat or like they are just better because their women, I am glad you are calling me out on this and will remain happy that you are, because I'm more then happy to explain my short comings or blatant hate when I truly mean something else. Women are people, they can be whatever the hell they want to be and I support that, and will continue to support that as long as it is not something evil or mean.

If your friends really are such good boyfriends who aren't getting any reciprocation for their kindness, then that is their fault. They need to stop being carpets and find partners who will respect them.

Just saying, "For me" doesn't alleviate your post of all that's going on in here, especially when you do not distinguish a difference between your personal experience and the issue of gender equality, which is universal.

I'll seperate it for you, but I should probably do this in my main post to be 100% clear.

On a personal basis: The woman I've met in my life have been rather rude or mean, and I am slightly bitter on that fact and will probably get over it some time.

On a universal basis: Women are people, thus meaning that they can range from very great people to utter slimeballs.

Again, I am sorry if I offended you, but that was not my goal with my post and will never be it, my post was aimed, once again, at the phrase / social agreement that "Women are Delicate Flowers" which is far from the truth, their people, and thus you can't label them as something that you can not label everyone as.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I guess I'm one of those expections.

My GF and I are like regular close friends, only with the additional bonus of snuggling and kissing and things of that nature.

I asked her out, but she was waiting for me because she was too shy to ask. She WAS planning on doing so the next week (next week was valentine's) if I didn't say anything soon.
Then SHE made the first move to hold hands, she made the first move to kiss.
I was the one to suggest an actual out-of-school kind of date.
And as for our dates...We usually pay our own way, although I'll often insist on paying for some of her stuff (usually for her movie ticket. We both buy our own food 90% of the time). This is mostly due to the fact that I live with my parents, and she doesn't, so I have more disposable income than her.
And as for moving for kisses and stuff...Hmm....I usually make the move now, although she does so quite a bit too.

There is no way I could put enough instances of the word "sad" in the statement "you are a sad human being" so I won't bother.

I've NEVER paid for sex, even in the way that you're describing. When I have a girlfriend, we do things we enjoy together. We go to movies. We go to eat. We buy and play games together. I'm not paying for sex. I'm.... doing things I love doing... with the person I love.

Even if I was dating, I'm more interested in knowing about the person I'm dating, rather then tallying up the monetary cost of our meal or whatever and then expecting repayment in sex. That's horrible, and you, and everyone else that have that viewpoint are the reason why all of these shitty relationship threads even exist.

Agreed with this guy. Unless you count my giving her a few of my homemade cookies or some snacks I brought to class as some kind of "payment", I haven't spent any money on her in over a month and a half, maybe even more. We just do things we like together. We've been going out 9 months now, and I have no intention to push for sex. I'm happy where we are now, no need to rush things.

Anyone who looks at treating your significant other kindly and stuff as if it was paying a hooker....Yeah, I'm sorry, but that overly cynical outlook will almost guarantee that you will have some serious trouble with relationships.

 

[Vault101]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I know too many people who were raped and molested, and even a couple people who were brutally raped and subsequently murdered in very traumatic ways to not have an acute fear on the matter of sexual assault.

And all of these acts were committed by men. And yes, women perpetrate such actions, too, but that's typically more towards their own opposite sex.
Considering my age, statistics, and the kind of people I catch staring at my ass, if I get sexually assaulted, its probably going to be at the hands of a man.
No, this does not mean that all men are rapists, and yes, danger can come from women, too, but it does bother me a bit when someone is insulted that I'm not going to strike up a casual conversation with some stranger on the street at night.

what is this?...actual REASON? omg whats the world coming too?

yes, I cant stand being generalised,

 

[Char-Nobyl]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Wait...I've glanced over the stuff in the rest of the post, and it doesn't seem to apply at all to online dating. Or do you mean meeting people through dating sites?

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

Hoo-boy. A disclaimer, and one that wasn't edited in after the original post. That's never a good sign.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.

That seems a bit...specific. Most people don't need to worry about "scar[ing] her off," because they don't have scary personalities. And the conversation bit applies to literally any first-encounter with another person. Initial conversation is always a bit strained, but then it gets easier.

It sounds like you're just worrying too much, mate. And if you're worrying this much during the date, it probably shows, and looking like a nervous wreck does the exact opposite of what you want to have happen.

Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.

Yikes. I'm afraid I think I know where this is going.

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

...yes. That's how it works with women who aren't prostitutes: investing money in them isn't a guarantee that they'll let you fuck them.

Sucks doesn't it?

Not really, no. It can be difficult at times, but to suggest otherwise is to assert that by doing various date-related things, you 'deserve' to bone her on the second date.

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?

More often than you'd think. Happened to me once in high school. Nothing much developed, but it was a refreshing sort of difference.

How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?

I think that's the same as the previous question.

How often does a girl pay solely for the date?

Rarely, because it relies on her having first asked the guy out and then the guy not volunteering to pay. Are you really upset that you have to pay for an event that you invited someone to?

How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

Umm...is this a trick question? Because that happens. If the guy doesn't like the girl, he's not going to kiss her. It doesn't rely on any variation of the usual norms of dating.

I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy,

...ah, so that's it. Look, man, I'll be honest: you're talking about online dating. That implies profiles, which in turn implies stuff like "waiting for Mr. Right" and whatnot. That's just an expression. No one is going to reasonably say "I'm looking for an above-average guy, but my expectations aren't unrealistic." Frankly, that's rather off-putting.

or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.

...wait, so since you're speaking in the context of your dating career, why is it that everyone you've dated will invariably fail to find a good match? This sounds like a really tame revenge fantasy where you imagine all your failed girlfriends going on to have vaguely dissatisfying marriages.

As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

Yawn. Heard this before. Look, man, if you want someone to ask you on a date, pay for your food, and ultimately make any sex that evening be your decision, I've got news for you: your most viable option is to learn to play catcher and start courting some nice gay gentlemen, because I can't think of many women that find that sort of mentality appealing.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

How? Give me specific details as to how "they seem to have the dating system down right." And don't say it's because "The girl initiates the date and pays for the food/whatever," because they're both girls. That's why they're lesbians.

 

[Still Life]

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

1. Had this happen to me and have seen happen a number of times.
2. See above
3. For me, I prefer to share costs unless it's a special occasion. Quid Pro Quo.
4. Don't know about anyone else here, but I've made those decisions for myself.

Romantic relationships are a funny thing, but I'm not happy if I'm not treated as an equal and with the level of respect/maturity that entails. I have zero interest in anything less; a good partner will complement and encourage your individual growth, not leech and stifle you.

 

[tobi the good boy]

Thats what I was trying to say. I'm not as succinct as you though

hahaha, i couldn't help but be blunt. he's not making sweeping generalizations, he's being nauseatingly misogynistic.

OP, i hope you understand that the motivation for rape crimes isn't usually a desire for the victim but a desire for control. did you happen to go as the FBI's profile for serial rapists on halloween?

You are my new favourite person on the escapist.

 

[WaReloaded]

I think it's a bit tiring having to make the first move all of the time, traditional gender roles are a harsh mistress. My partner rarely makes any sort of forward gestures of affection, if at all. However, I believe that this can be attributed to her personality and character, she's an aggressive, slightly dominating individual and I often feel as though she's "wearing the pants" in the relationship. I suppose when I look at our relationship, I'm happy apart from the fact I'm having to make the first move. I guess it just doesn't seem right? Maybe it's a male thing? I don't know.

 

[Powereaver]

it frustrates me do the social norms for dating sometimes but im starting to see slight changes in it myself.. but i think a lot of the time its not social norms that stop people asking each other out.. its just one is as shy as the other and the end result is noone asks anyone!

 

[Still Life]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

Um. Dates and relationships in general aren't about control, they're about sharing time and experiences together.

If you want to be in control buy a dog.

This is an excellent reply.

Though, I can't help but observe that the general attitudes towards romantic relationships (in Western societies) tends be one of commodity, fashion and of course status. Though, perhaps that's merely a media-based perception.

 

[Astoria]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

No, that doesn't suck at all.
So, you want to be able to dictate when you can touch and kiss a girl you hardly know and are just starting to date? Tough tits.
(Sweeping generalisation incoming).
Women are usually `in control` like that because if a dude was it'd be a hand up the shirt before he said hi.

Also, the dating model you have described usually only occurs when a guy is going out with a girl who is really hot and perhaps a bit out of his league.
I cant tell you how many arrogant (if nice-looking) guys there are waiting around for Miss.Right as well, who wont give the time of day to `nice girls`. It happens the other way around, too.
Plus, I thought the modern thing to do was split paying for dates 50/50? (Or at least every date I've ever been on has been).

Yeah I agree with this. People around my age (mid to late teens) seem to stick to the norms you've said but that's because they don't know any better. Any reasonable girl would at least offer to pay half and I think girls make the first move more often than people realise because they seem to think making a first move means you have to ask them out.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

Here's the problem with norms; they work from both ends.

Everyone does it this way because they feel that everyone else does it this way; boys and girls. Maybe some girls don't want to seem too forward or assertive because the norm dictates they shouldn't, but otherwise they would make the firs moves, plan evenings, and pay for them.

Many do. That's the other problem: not everyone actually follow norms. Most folks I know go dutch (50/50), or the planner/initiator pays.

The idea of burden of impressing or wooing one to the other is an archaic mindset, and I think that it has actually fallen out of fashion. Relationships built around one person in dominance don't work out. Most successful relationships come from mutual partners who have similar interests and values that respect and trust each other.

Also, I get what you are saying in your series of "how often..." questions, but you might want to rephrase it...