Dating norms need to change

[Mad World]

How often does a girl make the first move?

After several months I finally decided to make the first move with my girlfriend, and she said she knew I had feelings for her and wanted me to make that move months ago. After I do, she practically (and literally, actually) jumps all over me.

Why couldn't she have made a move earlier? Why was this exclusively my responsibility when she so clearly had some extremely strong feelings and knew I had similar ones?

I don't understand why these rules are in place. They're crippling if the male is indecisive or simply not bold enough.

So true. I'm sick of the traditional idea that guys have to make the first move. And that they have to pay. It's just dumb.

 

[Icehearted]

Spoiler: snipped

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I actually found this to be quite helpful in answering questions like the ones you posed:
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

The title alone cracked me up. The blog itself seems to only further prove my point though :/

 

[Aprilgold]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

Erm, no, thats why the analogy up at the top of the speech said
"Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp." Because like guys, some are major pricks, and some are very nice, but many are / were mean to me for many years in increasing numbers of severity. I can probably reword the top of the phrase for it to make more sense, but, again, I see it as a rose among a rosebush sort of deal, but thats my personal view. Hell, what is my first sentence of me quoting that person.
"I can't count how many times that is wrong with me" Read that a few times, it says WITH ME, and this thread has been making sweeping generalizations the whole bloody time, why is my post anger such wrath.

Again, I could reword that better, but, once again its a personal view of mine, and I may be a ass for saying it, but a lot of my friends do so much for each of their gals and never gets a single thank you from them, and many times they lie and say their going to leave him if he doesn't do X thing, they have done some very extreme thing for each of their chicks, but don't get much thanks for any of it. Madam, I'm not insulting women, Roses are symbolic for being both pretty and bright, however, the stem is covered in thorns, this basically is symbolic for basically standing for that their pretty, bright *smart* but can be hard to grasp *fall in love with / be mean* this is not a insult, as it is very symbolic of how women have treated me throughout my life.

Sorry, but I meant no offense by it, only I should probably try and grow better at using symbolism to my advantage in writing.

Let me quote you here" Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free."
I'd say that's pretty damn negative a thing to say about women.

Its is, and I'll hone up to that, but that was one particular instance, and again, pointing it out again, I was responding to a specific thing the person I quoted said, which was "Women are Delicate Flowers." Thus I brought out several instances to try and prove the contrary.

And while we're being literary snobs, its "They're" and you're missing a conjunction. I know very well what you're trying to say here, and that meaning is part of what I have issue with.
Women are people, and if you have a problem with the social interactions you're involved in, do something about it for Christ's sake. Go find new friends, try looking elsewhere for people to go out with, actively work on your social skills. You're an American male, and from the sounds of it, an American male not of any minority that would incur discrimination and hate crimes. Take advantage of that.

No, but hearing that my sexual preference is wrong / evil and sinful is evil, lets not get sidetracked. I do not know those people anymore, and those instances were years ago, however, with friends, it is recent. I know a gal that is also dating a slimeball, if that helps.

Yeah, people can be jerks, but after a certain point, you can't go blaming everyone

Sorry to cut you off here, but I was once again, responding to the phrase "women are delicate flowers" and as such did not mean to give off that impression, please continue.

else for the way you're treated. Women don't just fall in love willy-nilly because some men were just born "right" while others were born "wrong." You need to make yourself desireable to the kind of woman who will respect who you are, as a friend and partner, and keep looking for those kind of women until you find one who is looking for a relationship.

Yeah, you're blatantly bitter, but for God's sake, at least take it out on the people who actually did something instead of all women.

Pointing out TO MY OWN STATEMENT AGAIN, THIS APPLIES TO ME, its my view on the ones that have been in my life, women have done some miraculous and impeachable things, the ones in my life have all treated people who I cared about like either a hunk of meat or like they are just better because their women, I am glad you are calling me out on this and will remain happy that you are, because I'm more then happy to explain my short comings or blatant hate when I truly mean something else. Women are people, they can be whatever the hell they want to be and I support that, and will continue to support that as long as it is not something evil or mean.

If your friends really are such good boyfriends who aren't getting any reciprocation for their kindness, then that is their fault. They need to stop being carpets and find partners who will respect them.

Just saying, "For me" doesn't alleviate your post of all that's going on in here, especially when you do not distinguish a difference between your personal experience and the issue of gender equality, which is universal.

I'll seperate it for you, but I should probably do this in my main post to be 100% clear.

On a personal basis: The woman I've met in my life have been rather rude or mean, and I am slightly bitter on that fact and will probably get over it some time.

On a universal basis: Women are people, thus meaning that they can range from very great people to utter slimeballs.

Again, I am sorry if I offended you, but that was not my goal with my post and will never be it, my post was aimed, once again, at the phrase / social agreement that "Women are Delicate Flowers" which is far from the truth, their people, and thus you can't label them as something that you can not label everyone as.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I guess I'm one of those expections.

My GF and I are like regular close friends, only with the additional bonus of snuggling and kissing and things of that nature.

I asked her out, but she was waiting for me because she was too shy to ask. She WAS planning on doing so the next week (next week was valentine's) if I didn't say anything soon.
Then SHE made the first move to hold hands, she made the first move to kiss.
I was the one to suggest an actual out-of-school kind of date.
And as for our dates...We usually pay our own way, although I'll often insist on paying for some of her stuff (usually for her movie ticket. We both buy our own food 90% of the time). This is mostly due to the fact that I live with my parents, and she doesn't, so I have more disposable income than her.
And as for moving for kisses and stuff...Hmm....I usually make the move now, although she does so quite a bit too.

There is no way I could put enough instances of the word "sad" in the statement "you are a sad human being" so I won't bother.

I've NEVER paid for sex, even in the way that you're describing. When I have a girlfriend, we do things we enjoy together. We go to movies. We go to eat. We buy and play games together. I'm not paying for sex. I'm.... doing things I love doing... with the person I love.

Even if I was dating, I'm more interested in knowing about the person I'm dating, rather then tallying up the monetary cost of our meal or whatever and then expecting repayment in sex. That's horrible, and you, and everyone else that have that viewpoint are the reason why all of these shitty relationship threads even exist.

Agreed with this guy. Unless you count my giving her a few of my homemade cookies or some snacks I brought to class as some kind of "payment", I haven't spent any money on her in over a month and a half, maybe even more. We just do things we like together. We've been going out 9 months now, and I have no intention to push for sex. I'm happy where we are now, no need to rush things.

Anyone who looks at treating your significant other kindly and stuff as if it was paying a hooker....Yeah, I'm sorry, but that overly cynical outlook will almost guarantee that you will have some serious trouble with relationships.

 

[Vault101]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I know too many people who were raped and molested, and even a couple people who were brutally raped and subsequently murdered in very traumatic ways to not have an acute fear on the matter of sexual assault.

And all of these acts were committed by men. And yes, women perpetrate such actions, too, but that's typically more towards their own opposite sex.
Considering my age, statistics, and the kind of people I catch staring at my ass, if I get sexually assaulted, its probably going to be at the hands of a man.
No, this does not mean that all men are rapists, and yes, danger can come from women, too, but it does bother me a bit when someone is insulted that I'm not going to strike up a casual conversation with some stranger on the street at night.

what is this?...actual REASON? omg whats the world coming too?

yes, I cant stand being generalised,

 

[Char-Nobyl]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Wait...I've glanced over the stuff in the rest of the post, and it doesn't seem to apply at all to online dating. Or do you mean meeting people through dating sites?

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

Hoo-boy. A disclaimer, and one that wasn't edited in after the original post. That's never a good sign.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.

That seems a bit...specific. Most people don't need to worry about "scar[ing] her off," because they don't have scary personalities. And the conversation bit applies to literally any first-encounter with another person. Initial conversation is always a bit strained, but then it gets easier.

It sounds like you're just worrying too much, mate. And if you're worrying this much during the date, it probably shows, and looking like a nervous wreck does the exact opposite of what you want to have happen.

Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.

Yikes. I'm afraid I think I know where this is going.

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

...yes. That's how it works with women who aren't prostitutes: investing money in them isn't a guarantee that they'll let you fuck them.

Sucks doesn't it?

Not really, no. It can be difficult at times, but to suggest otherwise is to assert that by doing various date-related things, you 'deserve' to bone her on the second date.

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?

More often than you'd think. Happened to me once in high school. Nothing much developed, but it was a refreshing sort of difference.

How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?

I think that's the same as the previous question.

How often does a girl pay solely for the date?

Rarely, because it relies on her having first asked the guy out and then the guy not volunteering to pay. Are you really upset that you have to pay for an event that you invited someone to?

How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

Umm...is this a trick question? Because that happens. If the guy doesn't like the girl, he's not going to kiss her. It doesn't rely on any variation of the usual norms of dating.

I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy,

...ah, so that's it. Look, man, I'll be honest: you're talking about online dating. That implies profiles, which in turn implies stuff like "waiting for Mr. Right" and whatnot. That's just an expression. No one is going to reasonably say "I'm looking for an above-average guy, but my expectations aren't unrealistic." Frankly, that's rather off-putting.

or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.

...wait, so since you're speaking in the context of your dating career, why is it that everyone you've dated will invariably fail to find a good match? This sounds like a really tame revenge fantasy where you imagine all your failed girlfriends going on to have vaguely dissatisfying marriages.

As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

Yawn. Heard this before. Look, man, if you want someone to ask you on a date, pay for your food, and ultimately make any sex that evening be your decision, I've got news for you: your most viable option is to learn to play catcher and start courting some nice gay gentlemen, because I can't think of many women that find that sort of mentality appealing.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

How? Give me specific details as to how "they seem to have the dating system down right." And don't say it's because "The girl initiates the date and pays for the food/whatever," because they're both girls. That's why they're lesbians.

 

[Still Life]

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

1. Had this happen to me and have seen happen a number of times.
2. See above
3. For me, I prefer to share costs unless it's a special occasion. Quid Pro Quo.
4. Don't know about anyone else here, but I've made those decisions for myself.

Romantic relationships are a funny thing, but I'm not happy if I'm not treated as an equal and with the level of respect/maturity that entails. I have zero interest in anything less; a good partner will complement and encourage your individual growth, not leech and stifle you.

 

[tobi the good boy]

Thats what I was trying to say. I'm not as succinct as you though

hahaha, i couldn't help but be blunt. he's not making sweeping generalizations, he's being nauseatingly misogynistic.

OP, i hope you understand that the motivation for rape crimes isn't usually a desire for the victim but a desire for control. did you happen to go as the FBI's profile for serial rapists on halloween?

You are my new favourite person on the escapist.

 

[WaReloaded]

I think it's a bit tiring having to make the first move all of the time, traditional gender roles are a harsh mistress. My partner rarely makes any sort of forward gestures of affection, if at all. However, I believe that this can be attributed to her personality and character, she's an aggressive, slightly dominating individual and I often feel as though she's "wearing the pants" in the relationship. I suppose when I look at our relationship, I'm happy apart from the fact I'm having to make the first move. I guess it just doesn't seem right? Maybe it's a male thing? I don't know.

 

[Powereaver]

it frustrates me do the social norms for dating sometimes but im starting to see slight changes in it myself.. but i think a lot of the time its not social norms that stop people asking each other out.. its just one is as shy as the other and the end result is noone asks anyone!

 

[Still Life]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

Um. Dates and relationships in general aren't about control, they're about sharing time and experiences together.

If you want to be in control buy a dog.

This is an excellent reply.

Though, I can't help but observe that the general attitudes towards romantic relationships (in Western societies) tends be one of commodity, fashion and of course status. Though, perhaps that's merely a media-based perception.

 

[Astoria]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

No, that doesn't suck at all.
So, you want to be able to dictate when you can touch and kiss a girl you hardly know and are just starting to date? Tough tits.
(Sweeping generalisation incoming).
Women are usually `in control` like that because if a dude was it'd be a hand up the shirt before he said hi.

Also, the dating model you have described usually only occurs when a guy is going out with a girl who is really hot and perhaps a bit out of his league.
I cant tell you how many arrogant (if nice-looking) guys there are waiting around for Miss.Right as well, who wont give the time of day to `nice girls`. It happens the other way around, too.
Plus, I thought the modern thing to do was split paying for dates 50/50? (Or at least every date I've ever been on has been).

Yeah I agree with this. People around my age (mid to late teens) seem to stick to the norms you've said but that's because they don't know any better. Any reasonable girl would at least offer to pay half and I think girls make the first move more often than people realise because they seem to think making a first move means you have to ask them out.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

Here's the problem with norms; they work from both ends.

Everyone does it this way because they feel that everyone else does it this way; boys and girls. Maybe some girls don't want to seem too forward or assertive because the norm dictates they shouldn't, but otherwise they would make the firs moves, plan evenings, and pay for them.

Many do. That's the other problem: not everyone actually follow norms. Most folks I know go dutch (50/50), or the planner/initiator pays.

The idea of burden of impressing or wooing one to the other is an archaic mindset, and I think that it has actually fallen out of fashion. Relationships built around one person in dominance don't work out. Most successful relationships come from mutual partners who have similar interests and values that respect and trust each other.

Also, I get what you are saying in your series of "how often..." questions, but you might want to rephrase it...

 

[TheLoneBeet]

There are exceptions. In my experience:
Some girls will make the first move. It's not common, but it happens.
I've never had a girl ask me out, but it's happened where they've come and said 'hi' and made it obvious they're interested and single and expect me to ask them out.
I've never had a girl pay for the first date. (However, I usually convince my girlfriends to get into a turn-based payment method once the relationship is steady.)
I sometimes get to decide whether the kiss happens. Some girls will go for the kiss and sometimes the guy just doesn't want it to happen.

It's really about the person. Some girls expect the guy to put himself out on a limb like that. Some girls see what they want and go for it. Some guys expect the girl to make the first move and all that. It just depends on the individual.

 

[Jacco]

How often? Never: girls (my generation) are egotistical, pompous, self-fulfilled bitches that wouldn't know the obvious unless it would hit them. With a chair. On a truck.

I love you.

OT: I agree. Its crap that women get to fuck around and completely control the situation in the early stages. It comes from the assumption that all men want is sex all the time and its just not true.

 

[scorptatious]

I guess it's because it's just the social norm for the guy to ask first. Obviously there are various exceptions to this rule, but they are rare.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

It would be nice if women would express their interest more often. Would never help me out, but maybe others could benefit.

 

[Sandernista]

Girls don't make the first move, and if they do that can, weirdly enough, scare some guys off.
Ask a guy out on a date? Well, that's often close to the same thing as making the first move.

That is completely untrue. The number of times I've had this conversation with all my different groups of friends, I have never met a guy who would be turned off by a girl making a move. In fact quite the opposite.

I'm occasionally creeped out by the advances some women make on me. Then again I'm in a relationship and generally only trying to be friendly.

 

[Johnny Impact]

I don't date. After an unbroken string of horrible experiences, I have come to understand that, whatever qualities women are looking for in their men, I possess none of them.

That having been said, here goes.

You lament your lack of control? Women are terrified, in a way you could never understand, of being controlled by a man who won't take no for an answer. Rape is the obvious example but there are many other forms of inappropriate conduct. The custom of the woman retaining control is predicated on the notion that men are bigger, stronger, and generally more aggressive than women, and should not be allowed to do whatever they want with this advantage. I could look up some rape statistics to post but I can't be bothered. The vast, vast majority of the time, women are the victims, not the perpetrators of inappropriate conduct. Giving the woman control is a sign of respect: "My bestial urges require me to throw you down right here on your doorstep and have my way with you, but *I* require my bestial urges to shut the fuck up and show you a little courtesy." It's a courtship ritual, no more involved than those practiced by many animal species. If you don't respect her, why are you with her? If you can't cope with courtship rituals, maybe you shouldn't court?

On paying: I would expect my (hypothetical) woman to go Dutch on any major expenditures. I don't mind treating her to coffee, but the weekend getaway at a ritzy hotel has to be halfsies. Maybe this isn't your experience. If all the women you meet expect you to pay for everything, all the time, you have my condolences. Maybe you should change your search parameters?

On who asks who for the date: I agree the pressure seems to be on the guy. I would love to be approached by a woman. That has never happened to me before (not in seriousness, anyway; see the following). It would be a wonderful boost to my self-esteem and possibly the beginning of a great relationship. On the other hand, every time I have been approached was for a practical joke. And just so we're clear, I don't mean the kind of practical joke your friends play, where no real harm is intended. I mean the kind of nasty, vindictive shit designed to teach the victim there is no such thing as self-esteem. I am now so jaded, if a woman *were* to approach me, I would assume it was another such joke and tell her to piss off. I assume my experience is atypical. Presumably being approached should be sublime.

On "Mr Right": Many women have unrealistic expectations. They want the superhero: endlessly strong, endlessly stable, endlessly patient. They want the guy upon whom they can dump all their emotions, frustrations, and inadequacies, with no thought whatsoever for having to be a stable, supportive human being in return. That would be great, but women don't seem to know that that man doesn't exist. Thus, they pick guys who look and talk like superheroes: the lean, muscled, egotistical jock types. Inevitably, such guys turn out to be imperfect, nothing but disappointments. The frustrating thing for me, and apparently for you too, is women don't seem to learn from the experience. I've seen them almost literally lining up to be abused by particularly heinous examples of this kind of guy. I have to wonder if the ladies are completely oblivious to the train wrecks those guys have made of their last umpteen relationships. So I'm with you on that point....at least as far as that point goes.

HOWEVER, there are two very important counterpoints.

First counterpoint: Not being the "Mr Right" described above is not the same thing as actually being the right guy. You seem to imply that if these women just got their heads on straight they'd realize the jocks aren't where it's at and some other guy (i.e. you) would in fact be the perfect choice. You are not perfect. Get that idea out of your head. Odds are you aren't any more suited to companionship and commitment than any other guy, most jocks included.

Second counterpoint: Men also suffer from unrealistic expectations. You yourself seem to want something that doesn't exist. You say the second date only "brings more problems" and whine about how much it sucks that you don't get to kiss/touch/whatever any time you want. I'm going to repress the urge to call you names. Instead, I ask you to consider that there are guys, myself among them, who would be thrilled, absolutely thrilled just to have a second date, with all its complications included. What do you think a relationship is but a huge set of difficult, time-consuming, occasionally downright nonsensical complications that happens to make you feel mostly good most of the time? If you are not ready to commit some serious time, thought, frustration, and material resources to a girl, why should she be interested in you? Yes, it's fair to expect a little commitment in return for the things you do. But that commitment is and must be mutual. You go out because you enjoy each other's company. You have a wonderful evening. Maybe something else happens and maybe it doesn't. You don't buy a kiss, or a feel, or any other such thing when you pay for a date. No such promise has been made. If you think it has, then you definitely aren't the right guy.