David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

[secretsantaone]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

If Bioware intends to keep creating sequels and to have all these sequels intertwine with each over with overarching story line (which seems to be the direction they are heading after DA II) then eventually we are going to get these sort of inconsistencies. It will be impossible to take every possible action in these games into account. They are doing a fine job as it is.

And ultimately, it is there intellectual property, they can decide what they want to make canon and what they don't want to make canon and the fanbase will just have to deal with it.

There really wasn't a massive amount of choice in Dragon Age 2 as it was.

This is just lazy writing, pure and simple, after ONE game there shouldn't be as bigger plothole as a dead person coming miraculously back to life.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

 

[MasterChief892039]

What nitpicky whiners. The characters from Dragon Age I play such a small role in Dragon Age II, I don't see how it matters in the slightest.

 

[Shaoken]

I think it's gameplay and story segregation here. Sure in some cases if you fought Leilana the combat ended with her decapitated, but that is not a certainty. Plenty of gamers who chose that option would have seen her just fall over, no dismemberment required. So David is simply retconing the possiblity that she was decapitated and changing it to she was injured and appeared dead.

It's not that big a deal, there are plenty of "not quite dead" examples in all games. Simply put as far as Bioware is concerned the end fight animations in Origins is not canon and since there is no "check Lelina's pulse" option they can invoke this.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

There is no

Spoiler

cutoff point for spoilers

....

...ever.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

What nitpicky whiners. The characters from Dragon Age I play such a small role in Dragon Age II, I don't see how it matters in the slightest.

Bioware outright saying your choices only matter as long as BW likes them isn't a big deal?

 

[secretsantaone]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Honestly, they could have had just a generic character who looked different with the same voice, and while many people would point out "That's weird", at least it would make sense and not completely undermine a rather large decision in the first game.

It's similar but worse than them hand waving

Spoiler

You killing Oghren in Origins

in Awakening, but I guess since it was really hard to get him to -100 disapproval anyway, most people didn't notice.

 

[Hader]

It is quite the plothole, but at the same time, how many people actually killed Leliana at this point? I doubt a majority of people let her die here. I know I didn't on any of my many playthroughs of Origins.

 

[Shaoken]

Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

Why would they? They're clearly going to add new characters to ME3, and any main characters that died in 1 stay dead in 2. Not to mention that Mass Effect 1 through 3 is Sheppard's story and has a tighter cohession, whereas DA:O was Grey Warden's story and DA2 was Hawke's story. Different situations.

 

[Samechiel]

My question is, why isn't Leliana still with the Warden? If you romanced her in Origins, she gives a cute little "the warden is very dear to me" line, but that only made me wonder what the hell happened even more. Why is she back with the Chantry? Why is she a damn holy assassin secret agent? Why isn't she travelling with the Hero of Ferelden? Did they break up? What the hell is going on?

With Zevran it's a bit easier to accept. If he ended up alive and on your side, he said he was going to go take care of the Antivan Crows once and for all, and he goes to do that. But Leliana? Unless you kill her, she basically sticks to you like crazy glue.

Oh, well. It was nice to see Alistair again. Just as big a dork as he ever was.

 

[ZiggyE]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

All Bioware has to do is say her death isn't canon. And because they are the writers they are perfectly entitled to do it. And no matter how mad it makes you and how much you complain, it isn't going to change.

If they are going to have an overarching plot over a series of games then not every little choice will be able to applied. It's down to the nature of the intricacy of Dragon Age: Origins. Not every little thing can be easily incorporated and not everything is going to be perfect.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Ooh, how about this. It's all being narrated by Varric, so he's wrong.

There, hand-waved again. There's so many ways to dismiss this it's ridiculous(granted, DA3 will most likely prove this 100% wrong.)

The fact is we're just demanding a lot from Bioware. Getting every possibility from DAO to transfer would be crazy amounts of work. Hell, I've killed Zevran and he's in DA2.

 

[ZiggyE]

My question is, why isn't Leliana still with the Warden? If you romanced her in Origins, she gives a cute little "the warden is very dear to me" line, but that only made me wonder what the hell happened even more. Why is she back with the Chantry? Why is she a damn holy assassin secret agent? Why isn't she travelling with the Hero of Ferelden? Did they break up? What the hell is going on?

I believe those are the questions we are supposed to be asking. We're supposed to be wondering where Hawke and The Warden buggered off to at the end.

 

[secretsantaone]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

All Bioware has to do is say her death isn't canon. And because they are the writers they are perfectly entitled to do it. And no matter how mad it makes you and how much you complain, it isn't going to change.

If they are going to have an overarching plot over a series of games then not every little choice will be able to applied. It's down to the nature of the intricacy of Dragon Age: Origins. Not every little thing can be easily incorporated and not everything is going to be perfect.

Sorry for expecting quality from the game I spent £40 on.

I guess I'll just shut up and enjoy my plotholes and being treated like a 5 year old by the developers.

 

[ZiggyE]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

All Bioware has to do is say her death isn't canon. And because they are the writers they are perfectly entitled to do it. And no matter how mad it makes you and how much you complain, it isn't going to change.

If they are going to have an overarching plot over a series of games then not every little choice will be able to applied. It's down to the nature of the intricacy of Dragon Age: Origins. Not every little thing can be easily incorporated and not everything is going to be perfect.

Sorry for expecting quality from the game I spent £40 on.

I guess I'll just shut up and enjoy my plotholes and being treated like a 5 year old by the developers.

It's hardly a lack of quality that there is a plothole in something where due to the amount of choices, it is impossible to cater to everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people didn't kill her anyway. If they aren't going to cater to someone because its impossible to cater to everyone due to the intricacy of DA: O, they might as well not cater to the minority rather than the majority.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

While she didn't play that major of a role in DA2, it's pretty clear she's going to play a major role in DA3. As for providing the option, they clearly weren't originally planning on having her come back in that capacity.

Again, there was hand-waving involved with Anders/Justice, a little handwaving in Awakening allowing you to import a dead warden.

These things come up. It is incredibly difficult to progress with a series with this many choices if you don't have the entire series planned out up front (which is very rare) without a little hand-waving.

It's very easy to play arm-chair quarterback and say they just used poor writing, etc. But you don't know what was discussed in their meetings, how they decided it would work, etc.

Plus, again, it's possible that one of the other posters is wrong about the beheading part, making it easier to say "you thought she was dead, but she wasn't".

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled better, but of all the things to nerdrage about, you pick this?

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

Why would they? They're clearly going to add new characters to ME3, and any main characters that died in 1 stay dead in 2. Not to mention that Mass Effect 1 through 3 is Sheppard's story and has a tighter cohession, whereas DA:O was Grey Warden's story and DA2 was Hawke's story. Different situations.

Garrus and Tali are more popular among the fans than Jesus. I can see them warming up the magic retcon wand again.