David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

[Irridium]

Ooh, how about this. It's all being narrated by Varric, so he's wrong.

There, hand-waved again. There's so many ways to dismiss this it's ridiculous(granted, DA3 will most likely prove this 100% wrong.)

But after Varric was done narrating, Leliana showed up in the ending scene. So that excuse doesn't work here.

And I what people seem to be demanding is story cohesion. Which is something that should be a given. Yes its really hard after multiple games/books/movies. But this is game number 2, all they would have to do is make a new NPC and just copy/paste Leliana's dialog. Hell, they did it in ME2 with Kaiden/Ashley.

Then that would be my error from having yet to progress that far into the game(which makes it weird that I'm in such a spoileriffic thread, but alas I never really gave a shit about spoilers anyway.)

So I'll stick with the "KO'd" excuse.

Oh.
Well, wish you would have said something. Sorry about dropping that spoiler on you.

 

[Samechiel]

Actually, I think it works out ok with that. If you romanced her, you get this letter at the start of Awakenings:

Ah, okay. I never played Awakenings. I kept meaning to get it, but never did for some reason.

 

[Shaoken]

Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

Why would they? They're clearly going to add new characters to ME3, and any main characters that died in 1 stay dead in 2. Not to mention that Mass Effect 1 through 3 is Sheppard's story and has a tighter cohession, whereas DA:O was Grey Warden's story and DA2 was Hawke's story. Different situations.

Garrus and Tali are more popular among the fans than Jesus. I can see them warming up the magic retcon wand again.

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today. The fact that both characters are more popular than Jesus would be a hell of a reason to keep them dead, so it'd have more of an impact on the fans if they stayed dead next game. More of an incentive to go back and launch another playthrough so they still live.

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

Again, this boils down to story and gameplay seperation. In the script for Origins, Leliana is only "killed" with no specifics attached to it. Getting decapitated is a random occurance which is entirely situational. So out of all of Lelina's deaths in origins she wouldn't be decapitated in the majority of them. So at the end of it, what he's bascially saying is "Lelina was not decapitated in Origins, and thus the Warden only thought she was dead."

I would like to point out that this example, "never checked the pulse" has been used in so many stories across all media that going after Bioware for it is slightly hypocritcal.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Ooh, how about this. It's all being narrated by Varric, so he's wrong.

There, hand-waved again. There's so many ways to dismiss this it's ridiculous(granted, DA3 will most likely prove this 100% wrong.)

But after Varric was done narrating, Leliana showed up in the ending scene. So that excuse doesn't work here.

And I what people seem to be demanding is story cohesion. Which is something that should be a given. Yes its really hard after multiple games/books/movies. But this is game number 2, all they would have to do is make a new NPC and just copy/paste Leliana's dialog. Hell, they did it in ME2 with Kaiden/Ashley.

Then that would be my error from having yet to progress that far into the game(which makes it weird that I'm in such a spoileriffic thread, but alas I never really gave a shit about spoilers anyway.)

So I'll stick with the "KO'd" excuse.

Oh.
Well, wish you would have said something. Sorry about dropping that spoiler on you.

No harm done, my man. As I said, spoilers don't really bug me much anyway. I find a quick forum post rarely does the events actually playing out justice. Unless it's meant to be a total shocker, like the twist in KotOR. Or the original Star Wars trilogy, for that matter.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

I figured the minute I caught onto the 'import'. See, when I brought my data from DA:O over to DA2 I realized that it didn't capture everything, all it did transfer was that a) my warden was a badass dual wielding mage and b) him and Lelianna got it on. Other that, apperently my Warden dissapeared and Zevran was still alive as well as someone mentioning Morrigan helping me slay the archdeamn when I refused her offer and she left. That and Allistar mentioning that my character was on some adventure. Cause you know, I totally see my corpse getting up one day, tired of being all corpsey and walks off into the sunset. . . . . missing an arm and a leg and reeking of a Denny's kitchen.

It's like they had some grand scheme for the Dragon Age franchise but don't want it to copy Mass Effect when it comes to certain choices we're allowed to make. To which my response is: Why let us choose in the first place? Just wait, some people who had Hawke help the Templars are in for a sore surprise in DA 3 when it states early on he helped the mages. Be consistant Bioware, don't take a page from Marvel and DC and go overboard with continuity and status quo changes.

There are limits. Your choices do matter. But when you have that many choices, they have to draw a line.

DA3 is going to have the Hero and the Champion working together. I highly doubt that they're going to take away the choice of Templar vs Mages. But how do you expect them to be able to continue old storylines without some errors. For example, say DA3 heavily involves Morrigan and her child. Are you going to stamp your feet because you didn't take her offer? Or do you honestly expect BioWare to change the game to incorporate your exact choices?

In stories like this, you have to grant some leeway and let BioWare have a "canon" version to work from.

But, what you choose with Alistair matters. Choosing to spare Connor has an effect on some quests. A number of things matter, and get acknowledged. But to tell them they have no wiggle room and have to develop content to fit every single possible outcome is unreasonable.

 

[IronicBeet]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Given the vast amount of choices you make in the game, can you really expect them to setup a scenario accounting for every possible decision? That requires a great deal of time and wasted effort.

Leliana was a minor supporting character that was very popular, who's death happened in a relatively small amount of playthroughs (seeing as the player had to go out of their way to kill her, both defiling the ashes and not intimidating her out of attacking). They decided to bring her forward into DA2. It takes a very small amount hand-waving to make this make sense, but would have required a good amount of time and money to cover the contingency. Because they liked the character.

Look at Anders, he's set to be a companion in DA2, but if you

Spoiler

left him to guard Vigil's Keep without all the upgrades, his epilogue says he dies.

I believe it's also possible to not recruit Justice to the player's party in Awakening, causing what would have been a huge change in DA2.


Could Gaider have been a little more diplomatic about it, sure. But we all have our bad days, and days where we break and snap at people. Just because he's an "official" BioWare person doesn't mean he's not human.

He seems to snap at people quite a bit.

 

[secretsantaone]

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

Again, this boils down to story and gameplay seperation. In the script for Origins, Leliana is only "killed" with no specifics attached to it. Getting decapitated is a random occurance which is entirely situational. So out of all of Lelina's deaths in origins she wouldn't be decapitated in the majority of them. So at the end of it, what he's bascially saying is "Lelina was not decapitated in Origins, and thus the Warden only thought she was dead."

I would like to point out that this example, "never checked the pulse" has been used in so many stories across all media that going after Bioware for it is slightly hypocritcal.

She doesn't even mention it in DA2, she's also still looking for the warden that abandoned and attempted to murder her with no sense of anger at this evident at all. I think it's safe to say it's just sloppy writing.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

The more I read from David Gaider's forum responses, the more I think he is a major asshole.

His basic attitude is "fuck you if you don't like my storytelling"

Yeah, one guy is uncomfortable with the imposing Anders gay option.
"You're just a fucking homophobe who hates my story."

While he might have been justified, he still comes off as an ass.

 

[ZiggyE]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Given the vast amount of choices you make in the game, can you really expect them to setup a scenario accounting for every possible decision? That requires a great deal of time and wasted effort.

Leliana was a minor supporting character that was very popular, who's death happened in a relatively small amount of playthroughs (seeing as the player had to go out of their way to kill her, both defiling the ashes and not intimidating her out of attacking). They decided to bring her forward into DA2. It takes a very small amount hand-waving to make this make sense, but would have required a good amount of time and money to cover the contingency. Because they liked the character.

Look at Anders, he's set to be a companion in DA2, but if you

Spoiler

left him to guard Vigil's Keep without all the upgrades, his epilogue says he dies.

I believe it's also possible to not recruit Justice to the player's party in Awakening, causing what would have been a huge change in DA2.


Could Gaider have been a little more diplomatic about it, sure. But we all have our bad days, and days where we break and snap at people. Just because he's an "official" BioWare person doesn't mean he's not human.

He seems to snap at people quite a bit.

He does have a lot of angry fanboys to deal with. Quite frankly if I was heavily involved with the Bioware fanbase on their forums constantly criticising my work I'd snap quite a bit as well.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

While she didn't play that major of a role in DA2, it's pretty clear she's going to play a major role in DA3. As for providing the option, they clearly weren't originally planning on having her come back in that capacity.

Again, there was hand-waving involved with Anders/Justice, a little handwaving in Awakening allowing you to import a dead warden.

These things come up. It is incredibly difficult to progress with a series with this many choices if you don't have the entire series planned out up front (which is very rare) without a little hand-waving.

It's very easy to play arm-chair quarterback and say they just used poor writing, etc. But you don't know what was discussed in their meetings, how they decided it would work, etc.

Plus, again, it's possible that one of the other posters is wrong about the beheading part, making it easier to say "you thought she was dead, but she wasn't".

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled better, but of all the things to nerdrage about, you pick this?

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

THIS I agree with you on. It was incredibly undiplomatic. But, David Gaider is human like the rest of us. He makes mistakes. He could have been having a bad day. That particular poster could have done something to irritate him, etc. He's also been dealing with a lot of backlash over DA2 (though I myself thoroughly enjoyed it) and dealing with people complaining about every little thing, often in conflict with each other.

Should he have handled it better? Absolutely.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

 

[secretsantaone]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

While she didn't play that major of a role in DA2, it's pretty clear she's going to play a major role in DA3. As for providing the option, they clearly weren't originally planning on having her come back in that capacity.

Again, there was hand-waving involved with Anders/Justice, a little handwaving in Awakening allowing you to import a dead warden.

These things come up. It is incredibly difficult to progress with a series with this many choices if you don't have the entire series planned out up front (which is very rare) without a little hand-waving.

It's very easy to play arm-chair quarterback and say they just used poor writing, etc. But you don't know what was discussed in their meetings, how they decided it would work, etc.

Plus, again, it's possible that one of the other posters is wrong about the beheading part, making it easier to say "you thought she was dead, but she wasn't".

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled better, but of all the things to nerdrage about, you pick this?

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

THIS I agree with you on. It was incredibly undiplomatic. But, David Gaider is human like the rest of us. He makes mistakes. He could have been having a bad day. That particular poster could have done something to irritate him, etc. He's also been dealing with a lot of backlash over DA2 (though I myself thoroughly enjoyed it) and dealing with people complaining about every little thing, often in conflict with each other.

Should he have handled it better? Absolutely.

If you look at some of the posts Gaider has posted before it's the same story. He seems genuinely unable to take criticism. Stuff like dismissing all negative criticism as a '4chan raid' and mocking anyone who dares express concern over dragon age 2 really is a quite bad.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

If I say that Dragon Age 2's story was sloppily put together, do you think Gaider will swoop in on me and yell at me? Or will a fanboy get to me first?

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Gaider. He actually gives a shit what the fans think. That is why I'm liking ME2 more than DA2.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

It feels like a major decision, but think about it... is it really?

Take away the emotional context of killing a comrade. What change did it have to the story? None. Zero. Zilch.

A little hand-waving and retconning is almost required with a game with as many choices as DA. To build scenarios for every single possible choice ever made while maintaining 100% linearity in the story requires a massive amount content to be added, and that's just going to grow exponentially with each new game.

They have to have some wiggle room, or it spirals out of control, or completely precludes characters from ever appearing again.

Why on earth would you give me the option to kill her if you were just going to bring her back? Surely you could just use a Mass Effect style system where if the save has her dead she doesn't turn up. She didn't play THAT bigger part in DA2. If you were defintely sure that you were never going to use the character again, do NOT give the option to kill them unless you have such a system in place, otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

While she didn't play that major of a role in DA2, it's pretty clear she's going to play a major role in DA3. As for providing the option, they clearly weren't originally planning on having her come back in that capacity.

Again, there was hand-waving involved with Anders/Justice, a little handwaving in Awakening allowing you to import a dead warden.

These things come up. It is incredibly difficult to progress with a series with this many choices if you don't have the entire series planned out up front (which is very rare) without a little hand-waving.

It's very easy to play arm-chair quarterback and say they just used poor writing, etc. But you don't know what was discussed in their meetings, how they decided it would work, etc.

Plus, again, it's possible that one of the other posters is wrong about the beheading part, making it easier to say "you thought she was dead, but she wasn't".

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled better, but of all the things to nerdrage about, you pick this?

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

THIS I agree with you on. It was incredibly undiplomatic. But, David Gaider is human like the rest of us. He makes mistakes. He could have been having a bad day. That particular poster could have done something to irritate him, etc. He's also been dealing with a lot of backlash over DA2 (though I myself thoroughly enjoyed it) and dealing with people complaining about every little thing, often in conflict with each other.

Should he have handled it better? Absolutely.

If you look at some of the posts Gaider has posted before it's the same story. He seems genuinely unable to take criticism. Stuff like dismissing all negative criticism as a '4chan raid' and mocking anyone who dares express concern over dragon age 2 really is a quite bad.

True, but for me, I don't care how big of a douche someone is if I like what they put out. If Gaider does something to the game that ruins it for me, I'll walk away. If he continues to put out games that I thoroughly enjoy, I'll keep playing them regardless of his personality.

 

[ZiggyE]

If I say that Dragon Age 2's story was sloppily put together, do you think Gaider will swoop in on me and yell at me? Or will a fanboy get to me first?

Well there's considerably more fanboys than there is Gaider.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Gaider. He actually gives a shit what the fans think. That is why I'm liking ME2 more than DA2.

At least he respects the branching paths in the first game. When I compare my import to the ME2 default, I feel proud and unique. I can't say the same about DA2. God I hope he doesn't cave to the Talimancers.

 

[ZiggyE]

Forgetting that ones favourite colouor is blue is an inconsistency, forgetting that one had ones head cut off & hence should be dead is just plain shoddy writing.

Sure. Unless we accept the fact that the majority of players wouldn't have killed off Leliana and that Leliana's head being 'chopped off' was completely subjective and the fact they have to consider however bloody many choices there were in Dragon Age II, I'm pretty sure it can be passed off as an inconsistency, considering it will only ever be retconned for the minority and half of them wouldn't even care.

It's not like Leliana dies in every playthrough of the game. Then it would be shoddy writing. But she doesn't.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Forgetting that ones favourite colouor is blue is an inconsistency, forgetting that one had ones head cut off & hence should be dead is just plain shoddy writing.

Sure. Unless we accept the fact that the majority of players wouldn't have killed off Leliana and that Leliana's head being 'chopped off' was completely subjective and the fact they have to consider however bloody many choices there were in Dragon Age II, I'm pretty sure it can be passed off as an inconsistency, considering it will only ever be retconned for the minority and half of them wouldn't even care.

It's not like Leliana dies in every playthrough of the game. Then it would be shoddy writing. But she doesn't.

With a developer like Bioware, the minority is the most crucial person to look at. Remember how they put out the statistics for ME2 that said the majority of people played Soldier? They didn't put that out to say that they will cater to Soldier players because they are the obvious majority.
They will look at the stats, and use them to make the alternatives more appealing. Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.