Ahem:Saelune said:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/691300/Street_Fighter_V__2016_Summer_Costume_Bundle/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Yzi0h4e1M&t=3s
Dead or Alive 6 Creator Director Shimbori Asks "Why does DoA get so much flak vs. other games?"
- Thread starter Paragon Fury
- Start date
https://store.steampowered.com/app/691300/Street_Fighter_V__2016_Summer_Costume_Bundle/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Yzi0h4e1M&t=3s
'We'?Dreiko said:
Ok, lets back track here a moment. I am not going around saying we need to boycott anything here. Hell, the origin of this topic is because DOA was kicked out of a fighting game tornament and a bunch of horny men being upset by that. You want to make this about letting people do what they want, well the organizers of EVO want to keep DOA out of their tornament. I do not advocate for porn itself being illegal.
My points are:
DOA is more porn than fighting game
Women are over sexualized and objectified and we need to acknowledge that
You can strip down a lot of stuff from video games and argue that none of it was "essential." Doesn't change the fact that the end product is still noticeably inferior, lesser, and charging more for less.Samtemdo8 said:
Your "gamers have a monthly income" kind of has the same tone and reasoning as "Do you guys not have phones?" I mean I totally COULD afford a hundred dollar season pass. It's just. You know. Fuck that.
Because not everyone has the same idea what is worth it and what is not.erttheking said:
I don't find costumes worth it because I learned my lesson with Saints Row 3 buying so many costumes and other fluff DLC only for them to release a complete edition of the game.
But I think the Season Pass for Smash Bros Ultimate is worth it, and I have bought every DLC for Warhammer Total War as they came out.
DOA 6's Season Pass is not worth it. And since you said its all costumes and fighters, I will only buy the fighters individually and perhaps a certain amount of costumes if they look completely interesting.
I mean I play Overwatch and I only spent a reasonable price of 2 dollars to get 1 costume. I don't feel the need to unlock all the costumes because not all of them are worth it. So I don't feel like my experience with Overwatch is is incomplete because I am missing out on a lot of costumes.
Congratulations on not being effected. Not everyone is you. A lot of people have their experiences lessened by having countless things dangled just out of reach and being told that they can't have it unless they pay up. Honestly I see this whole thing as being divided into two camps. The people who are about gated off content and those who don't. The way I see it, gating off content pisses off half the people, where as not gating it off pisses off no one.Samtemdo8 said:
But your points are wrong.Saelune said:
Dead or Alive the FIGHTING game is about fighting, and if you watch any let's play of DoA6 you'll see it is a gutter trash story that has very little to do with (if any) sexualization of the characters. They might be "attractive" characters, but they aren't hitting each other with strap-on dildos. Nor are they objectified.
Which also bothers me with the use of the term objectified. Surely everything in a game can be considered objectified at some point right? Kratos is often nothing more than a weapon (an object), lacking any substance to him other than growls and violence. Mario is an oject who literally serves no other purpose than to be a literal tool for the player to progress through the game. So I really don't understand why objectification is used as an arbitrary label specifically for women in media. It's an abstract label that one cannot clearly define because the argument is too blurry, and frankly one-sided.
The characters in DoA don't even come across as objects in the fighting game, they are all strong capable fighters just as powerful as any of the men in the series. If you wanna argue that the DLC outfits are too sexy then maybe you have a case, but those sexy outfits are not the default and they are 100% player driven choice so I would argue against calling them sexualized or objectified as the default.
At least in DoA proper.
The only obtuse sexualization is of those shitty Xtreme Volleyball games, and yes those games are nothing but fan service. Calling them porn is a stretch as well since no nudity or sexual acts occur. Tantalizing maybe, but porn no.
No, not really. Fuck things being gated off in general. Even people who don't give a shit about it fail to benefit from it.Samtemdo8 said:
Uh, haven't people been pointing out in this very thread that the fighting in DoA is sub par compared to the other games and the ladies are the main draw? I meant, I think Saelune is painting with far too broad a brush, there's room for chesecake in this world (I just think a more balanced diet would be grand) but let's be honest on what the main draw of the game is.CritialGaming said:
I'd disagree with you on that Err. Because yes, the GOOD fighting game players might not think DoA is anything special as a fighting game. But I do know that plenty of people play DoA because it is fairly easy to get into and perform flashy looking moves with having a wikipedia list of moves and skill sets memorized.erttheking said:
So sure it might not be an elite fighting game, but the casual fighting game fans like it just fine. And that is perfectly valid.
So does that mean you refuse to get any game because of this? Even if its a season pass for what amounts to sheer fluff? Nothing juicy and meaty that affects gameplay?erttheking said:
Because if you do I find that a very narrow minded.
Well don't worry about it, because I have the mind shattering ability to have opinions other than "I love this and will never say anything about it ever" and "ugh, I hate this, I refuse to have anything to do with it never and will never say anything nice about it."Samtemdo8 said:
Let me say something that will might blow your mind. You can like something, buy it, and still have problems with it if the positives outweigh the negatives. I bought and enjoyed the first Total War Warhammer despite the fact I think charging for gore is horseshit, as is cutting out the Chaos Warriors (though that was apparently balanced out by them being shit. So yay?)
Even then, there's no real getting around the fact that accessibility isn't exactly what they're putting front and center to fight the game, so the average person looking for fighting games isn't going to see this and think "accessible." Dragon Ball Fighter Z was pretty darn accessible, but it wasn't selling itself on that, it was selling itself on being Dragon Ball.CritialGaming said:
And it's Ert, not Err.
So what exactly is it marketing itself with then?erttheking said:
Here is the launch trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEXX7k1O4Qs and when watching this I see super moves, stage transitions, environmental attacks, and then rapid clips of the cast of characters within the game. Aside from arguably 1-shot in the trailer do we see the woman portrayed in a sexual manner. No special sexy costumes are shown, and no female characters are damselized nor treated unequally from the men.
Hell the MEN show more skin than any of the women in the trailer. But that is besides the point. The point is, where in this trailer is the sexualization? Where is the part where they are actively trying to appeal to teenage boys as masturbation material? I don't see it, and outside of the couple of news stories (which the vast majority of the gaming audience doesn't even know exists), where are the "problems"?
Also here is the reveal trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecYRKkc6GGI again same thing, no sexualization. Lot's of topless guys, but nothing remarkable in terms of the super sexy women in the game.
I think it really does depend on what type of content is being gated off. If it's something like the true ending of Asura's Wrath, I was all over that. Yes it sucked horribly how they walled off the ending and it should have been part of the main game. At the same time, the content itself was so amazing that I have nothing but positive thoughts of it.erttheking said:
Same with actual characters in fighting games such as DBFZ which has a ton of added dlc chars that were created post-release (Videl is hype). I'll always bite the bullet cause you have to know the matchup with every char otherwise you'll go to a tournament and get blown up without knowing what hit you.
When you go to cosmetic stuff though, I don't care at all since it's not tied to mechanics or story. The one time I bought cosmetic DLC was in Guilty Gear Xrd and it was a system voice (the voice that says things like "round 1!" and "perfect!" and so on) that was of Ramlethal whose voice is like melting butter. But no, I don't think that the content merely being there is in itself some sort of temptation or an indication of me missing out on something independently of what content it is.
You know, I really wish I could get an argument as to why gated off content isn't a problem that goes a bit deeper than "well "I" don't care." I addressed that earlier in the thread already.Dreiko said:
That's not to say that there's no places for cosmetic DLC, but one word comes to mind when this kind of stuff comes up. Saturation. I enjoyed DB Fighter Z, but I stayed the fuck away from paying for the DLC because saturation is very much the word that comes to mind. I mean, how many fighters did it start with? 21ish? A decent sized roster, but now it;s got 12 DLC characters (14 if you count the Super Sayian God Super Sayians, which I kind of do) with a reported two more on the way, and this is all if they don't have a season pass #3. This is without getting into the ultimate edition doesn't have the characters from the second season pass, making it, what, a semi-ultimate edition?erttheking said:
Compare this to Super Smash Bros Ultimate, which has over 70 characters at launch and only 5 (6 if you count Piranha Plant, which is fair if you do) planned for a DLC.
I admit that there are games that I have a higher tolerance for than some, but those tend to be games that are supported over an extended period of time, and I'm talking like years and years, like Stellaris. DB Fighter Z is barely a year old and it already has around a hundred dollars in DLC, even though it still asks for $60 dollars up front. Stellaris, a game that is three times as old, has $130 dollars in DLC and asks for $40 up front, so if you want a complete edition it's only slightly more expensive for a game that has had triple the time to have built itself up. And yes, I'm counting things like music and profile pictures, but the point I'm trying to make is that the degree to which modern games try to nickle and dime us is getting fucking absurd. It's being saturated. That's what I see in Doa, DB Fighter Z, and I'd be hard pressed to get too offended if Stellaris was accused of this. Saturation. I look at games nowadays and half the times I feel like I have to go through a flow chart to see what parts I need to get a complete experience.
This term comes to mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confusopoly
I fully admit that it looks like they've been toning down the sexulization lately but it does seem to be a recent development, judging by how I'm looking through the thread and seeing all the talk about boob physics and sliders.CritialGaming said:
Besides, I still feel like those trailers play up cute girls more than accessibility.
But no, I explained that I did care about some dlc stuff and not others. The stuff like Asura's Wrath true end is fine being dlc cause it's really amazing content worth the higher price (if you were to add it to the game's price) that I fully believe ought to be experienced by everyone. It's the concept of paying premium for something that's really worth it. You don't do it every single time but a couple of instances of it are definitely worth it.erttheking said:
Same for the characters of a fighting game that you're into or even competitive at. When you add a character that adds literally hundred of hours of playtime, thousands if you plan on maining them and it keeps the game feeling fresh and the community alive which enhances your play experience and your local scene and so on by giving you more different people to fight.
Basically, the value you get is disproportionately high for some of this dlc, which makes it an overall good thing.
Cosmetic stuff really isn't in either of the two categories though. It's more for people who like to play dressup with their chars or who like to spend an hour trying to recreate Sailor Moon in soul calibur rather than spend 2 weeks worth of playtime just in training mode learning combos lol. It's reasonable to not care at all about this stuff if you're into the mechanics and not in the gallery mode stuff.
I know. But you then when on to say that you don't care about the cosmetic stuff. That's what I was responding to.Dreiko said:
Also, hundreds of hours, potentially thousands, of gameplay from "a" character? In games that release multiple new ones? I mean, I guess? If you're the type of person who obsessively plays one game and no others during every free hour you have...wait what?
Gonna tell you something that may blow you mind. You can care about the mechanics AND cosmetic DLC. I do. Some people like to play a fun game while looking kickass. There's a reason Metal Gear Solid games gave Snake a tuxedo before Konami decided to be a bag of dicks and make it paid DLC. There's a reason there's so much effort dedicated to cosplaying in Dark Souls, particularly when there's so many pieces of armor that resemble iconic Berserk designs. Games are more than just mechanics, there's a reason there's so many iconic designs in Pokemon and it's not just a bunch of numbers.
No offense, that last paragraph had a bit of a edge of "people who care about this don't play games for games" to it. I find that...distasteful.
Thousands of hours is only if you plan on maining that character AND are competitive. Fighting games are really time intensive like that, yeah (part of why it's hard for beginners to get a footing, when there's a 10000 hour gulf between you and an experienced player, no matter how much tutorials you go through you won't stand a chance). I've been playing the same series (blazblue) and been maining the same character for about a decade now as well as trying various other fighters like DBFZ and UNIEL and so on so I have literally no idea how many thousands of hours I've put in. It's not obsessive as much as just what it's like to be into competitive tourneys and the fighting game community and so on. You go to a tourney or to a local gathering and hang out all day and play for a good 8-12 hours straight and then go to dennys at 4am, it's fun like that. Doing that every week for years on top of playing at home and so on on top of going to special events and majors adds up.erttheking said:
I think DS makes sense to care about cosmetics in cause that game oozes atmosphere and lends itself to customization. It's not really the same as DoA where you're just picking if Marie will be a french maid or a schoolgirl or a nurse or what have you lol. (also apparently you can customize their type of underwear too, not 100% sure about that one though, someone else will have to confirm)
And yeah I can see why that can come off as dismissive but I meant it to be descriptive with no value judgements attached. In Blazblue you have a visual novel style storymode that's substantial enough to have people play the games purely for the storymode and not touch the complex mechanics and I'm used to seeing a lot of "story only" types of fans in my community but we don't treat them as inferior just because they don't practice competitively. So I kinda extended that sort of consideration to other people. I don't think someone who mainly likes playing dressup in soul calibur is any less of a gamer or doesn't play the game for what it's meant to be like or anything like that since I recognize that just playing for cosmetics is just another valid way of enjoying the game. And yeah that of course includes people who like both.
If anything, this is what a lot of not-me people have been trying to imply about DoA here, how people don't play it cause they like fighting games.
As for Berserk homage, Dragon's Dogma had actual berserk cosplay (and one could say took a few ques in it's plot from it too) so I did definitely enjoy that, though again that's another game without an established protagonist that lends itself to player-generated customization hence benefits more from a lot of cosmetic stuff than something like a fighter would imo.
That's quite a few ifs there. And even then, that justifies the purchase of one character, not so much the others. Also, this metric only can really apply for a few games, as most people only play that number of games for extensive periods of time over a decade.Dreiko said:
The presentation is a part of every game, there's a reason we wouldn't find it acceptable if the characters were all T-posing or floating red blocks that said "model not found." It not being as much as a central pillar doesn't mean it has no relevance.
People can be non-competative and still care about the way a game looks. Particularly considering the world outside of fighting games.
Again, presentation is a part of every game. Publishers wouldn't be putting out this cosmetic DLC if there wasn't some demand for alternate outfits.