Death Mechanics and Dark Souls

[Warachia]

The main problem with the tomb is you can't see pitfalls or platforms. Most of the time I died was when I got pushed into a whole that I didn't know was there, the bullshit part I mentioned was the hole patches knocks you down looks like it goes somewhere, it doesn't, you have to go along a skinny walkway next to the whole which you can't see because it's too dark. The mobs got down to just being tedious, the four legged giants were incredibly hard for me because they'd wreck my endurance meter, and I can't run because I can't see where I'm going! Again, having a level where you can't see is an interesting idea, but it doesn't make a good level overall.


It's very easy to miss how to do that move in the tutorial, because they tell you how to do it wrong, they say "Push this button when falling" but if you do that you fuck it up, on my second character I figured out that you have to land on him before attacking, which is why I had no idea that you could do it to the first boss on my first couple fights against him.

I don't know if you missed it or what, but somewhere within the game it basically tells you to have something to give yourself light in the Tomb of Giants. There's the skull lantern, there's spells and there's the sunlight maggot hat, all of which expand your sphere of view enough so that you're not stumbling around in the dark. If you didn't properly prepare yourself, that's not a failing of the game.

For the plunge attack, I'm not sure about waiting to land on him to attack, but it's a relatively easy attack to pull off if you have far enough to fall and good timing. I think it comes down to making sure that your feet are not still "touching" ground and then hitting the R1 attack only in mid-air. The only problems I ever had with the attack were due to me trying it off of ledges that were too low or simply mis-timing my button presses. But once you get the hang of it, it's fairly easy. You can actually roll or leap off a ledge or platform and extend the range of the attack to get enemies you might not be able to just drop on.

I think the failings in the game you are pointing out aren't failings in the game, as much as your own mistakes.

I was NEVER told about that skull lantern, those spells, or about that maggot hat (the spells and hat I never heard of until you said it right now), all the game does is hint that something can help you out without telling you what it is or where you can get it. When I got frustrated enough with it I looked it up online, found the enemy that drops the skull lantern (those bearded guys I think, it's been a while since I played, all I remember is they carried the lanterns) and tried to farm for it, giving up after several hours. That is not good design.

Again the game tells you how to do the plunge attack wrong, and only gives you one chance to do it in the tutorial, the only reason I found you have to wait till you land is because I accidentally messed up on my second character, waiting too long (or so I thought), landing on his face, and then taking off half his health. That is not good design.

 

[Zom-B]

I was NEVER told about that skull lantern, those spells, or about that maggot hat (the spells and hat I never heard of until you said it right now), all the game does is hint that something can help you out without telling you what it is or where you can get it. When I got frustrated enough with it I looked it up online, found the enemy that drops the skull lantern (those bearded guys I think, it's been a while since I played, all I remember is they carried the lanterns) and tried to farm for it, giving up after several hours. That is not good design.

Again the game tells you how to do the plunge attack wrong, and only gives you one chance to do it in the tutorial, the only reason I found you have to wait till you land is because I accidentally messed up on my second character, waiting too long (or so I thought), landing on his face, and then taking off half his health. That is not good design.

Well, I think I was mistaken in that the game tells you that you need something, but it definitely hints at it. There is however the flavour text for the Skull Lantern:

"Skull Lantern of the Catacombs necromancer.
Droops from his long beard locks.

This lantern alights the Tomb of the Giants,
Nito's light-devouring domain of death.
Also serves as a fire damage strike weapon."

I ended up with two Skull Lanterns myself, one taken from one of the first necromancers I killed in the catacombs. As for the Sunlight Maggot hat, you can get that by killing the reddish insect like things that hop around in the passage way between Lost Izalith and the Demon Ruin. It also has informative flavour text:

"A loathsome parasite that inhabits Lost Izalith. It is completely immobile, yet still lives.
When worn on the head, it emanates blinding light, which is why its know as a Sunlight Maggot."

It's a bummer you didn't find those things, but they are out there. Also, I can understand that if you didn't play a sorcerer you wouldn't necessarily know about the light spell but I got it myself not being one. You get it from Dusk of Oocile after killing the Kraken, if you find her.

So, while I'll grant you that none of these things are especially easy to get, chances are that you should have found at least one of them if you did things in the "right order". Sure, you can get into the Tomb of Giants fairly early on, but then, obviously, you might not have something to make light for you. That's the game's way of telling you to go back and get stronger before going this way. If you didn't take the hint, you can't very well blame the game.

As for the plunge attack... again, you get one brief tutorial, but you can attempt the move anywhere you can drop on an enemy. If you're crafty, you'll use it whenever possible because on a majority of enemies it's a one hit kill. All that practice on the little guys should make it that much easier to use on the big guys. And once again, your failure to efficiently or skillfully use the attack, which I've never seen any other complaints about, isn't due to bad game design. I think you just need more practice. It's a tough game for most. It's easy for some, harder for others. It took me about 60 hours to finish one play through with a character that was SL 93 at the end. Other players have done it in a matter of a few hours with a character far lower level. Some people will never finish it.

Those people that fail to finish it aren't the victims of bad design. They are either not skilled enough or they are not playing "correctly". Dark Souls rewards a certain play style: slow, methodical and careful, with attention to detail. You have to craft a good build, matching weapons to stats and choosing the right armour, rings and weapons for different encounters. If you can't do those things, you'll probably have a tough time.

 

[Hattingston]

I started running into that mind breaking problem there at the end in some multiplayer games i play. It made me realise "Yahtzee is right," and so i've converted to Croshaw-ism and began shunning every multiplayer aspect in a game. Then guess what happened? I ACTUALLY enjoyed playing games more who would have thought?

-In seriosness games are meant to be enjoyed and any game that even allows for a moment that would make you angry at it or others is not enjoyable. It's not fun to be mad, and a game that is not fun is not worth playing clarity is nice.

It always amazes me, because all my friends get horribly pissed off playing MW3 or (multiplayer shooter here, I'm not just picking on COD). They scream profanities, call bull, and by and large seem to utterly hate the experience. But they buy every new shooter and spend months fixed on each.

And I really don't get why they punish themselves so much.

It's called Gamer Masochism. It's a psychological remnant from when you were a child and your video game library was small and generally consisted of awful or horribly difficult games. You had so few games, you had to beat them. You had nothing better to do like go outside or learn a language or faggy shit like that, no, you had to beat Battletoads, or Ninja Gaiden, or Blinx the Timecat, or whatever horrible game your misinformed parents got from a bin and gave you for Christmas.

It's the same reason that people play stuff like Dark Souls, Super Meatboy or IWBTG now when they're old enough to know better; there's that damaged part of their psyche that gets some level of satisfaction from their own self imposed suffering and humiliation. Scariest part? It's getting worse and it's the reason stuff like CoD and MW are doing so well; these young men (generally) like inflict pain and misery upon themselves and others which does not bode well for the poor women who view them affectionately.

I've got to dissagree with your assertion that people like games like these because of a damaged psyche. I play Dark Souls because it presents a challenge, in that I can't just throw my character at the game until I get lucky enough to progress to the next level. When I fail, I have to think, why? What did I do wrong here? How can I fix this? It requires you to constantly judge your strategy and consider your options, making for a more mentally stimulating experience. While the game could be just as challenging with less punishment for failure, ala the consequences of death, that creates a feeling of tension, which in turn helps supply the atmosphere of the game, and makes you value the souls and humanity which you have acquired. It makes you strategize as to how to spend your humanity and souls, rather than having them be increasingly meaningless numbers that rise as you kill enemies (looking at you, Elder Scrolls economic system). In addition, when an item is (almost) required to progress, you can generally find one by exploring the area, it isn't some scavenger hunt where you need to find a shield in the beginning of the game to get past the third boss. For example, I noticed someone mention that they had no idea about the helpfulness of a Skull Lantern in the Tomb of Giants, but I remember that a lootable corpse near the start of the area has one on it, and I remember that the item description and the loading screens hinted that it could be used as a light source. I know that alot of gamers play games exclusively to relax, and I value that too sometimes, but when I want a stimulating challenge, I opt for a game like Dark Souls.

 

[Warachia]

I was NEVER told about that skull lantern, those spells, or about that maggot hat (the spells and hat I never heard of until you said it right now), all the game does is hint that something can help you out without telling you what it is or where you can get it. When I got frustrated enough with it I looked it up online, found the enemy that drops the skull lantern (those bearded guys I think, it's been a while since I played, all I remember is they carried the lanterns) and tried to farm for it, giving up after several hours. That is not good design.

Again the game tells you how to do the plunge attack wrong, and only gives you one chance to do it in the tutorial, the only reason I found you have to wait till you land is because I accidentally messed up on my second character, waiting too long (or so I thought), landing on his face, and then taking off half his health. That is not good design.

Well, I think I was mistaken in that the game tells you that you need something, but it definitely hints at it. There is however the flavour text for the Skull Lantern:

"Skull Lantern of the Catacombs necromancer.
Droops from his long beard locks.

This lantern alights the Tomb of the Giants,
Nito's light-devouring domain of death.
Also serves as a fire damage strike weapon."

I ended up with two Skull Lanterns myself, one taken from one of the first necromancers I killed in the catacombs. As for the Sunlight Maggot hat, you can get that by killing the reddish insect like things that hop around in the passage way between Lost Izalith and the Demon Ruin. It also has informative flavour text:

"A loathsome parasite that inhabits Lost Izalith. It is completely immobile, yet still lives.
When worn on the head, it emanates blinding light, which is why its know as a Sunlight Maggot."

It's a bummer you didn't find those things, but they are out there. Also, I can understand that if you didn't play a sorcerer you wouldn't necessarily know about the light spell but I got it myself not being one. You get it from Dusk of Oocile after killing the Kraken, if you find her.

So, while I'll grant you that none of these things are especially easy to get, chances are that you should have found at least one of them if you did things in the "right order". Sure, you can get into the Tomb of Giants fairly early on, but then, obviously, you might not have something to make light for you. That's the game's way of telling you to go back and get stronger before going this way. If you didn't take the hint, you can't very well blame the game.

Yes, you get those descriptions when you get the item, but I never got the items even when I farmed for the lanterns, I also had no idea the game needed to be done in an order, I was a melee only character for most of the game, and so yes, I never knew about the spell, I did manage to kill Nito though, thankfully you don't have the darkness problem when fighting him.

Incidentally, when I went in there, I didn't find the larger giant's a problem at all (they took 3-4 hits to kill) so I had no problems until I ran into those dog creatures later on. Not to mention, the game has those light stones that at first are a little breadcrumb trail for you to follow, that's not telling me to stay away, that's saying for me to come in, there will be a semblance of a path to follow (which there was, until halfway through). If they had an NPC hint at what item you needed or a character that told you that you should get X before going to place Y or maybe hint at what place you can find X then I'd forgive the game for it.

For the most part though, I had no idea what to do in that area other than push forward, it wasn't until those dogs pushed me off ledges for the millionth time that I looked up what could help me online, and then I couldn't get them to drop it. While I can't blame the game for not helping you out enough I'd only say that's half my fault at most.

One thing I absolutely hated was I was able to look at the special addition mini guide, which doesn't help at all since it only has the very early part of the game in it.

As for the plunge attack... again, you get one brief tutorial, but you can attempt the move anywhere you can drop on an enemy. If you're crafty, you'll use it whenever possible because on a majority of enemies it's a one hit kill. All that practice on the little guys should make it that much easier to use on the big guys. And once again, your failure to efficiently or skillfully use the attack, which I've never seen any other complaints about, isn't due to bad game design. I think you just need more practice. It's a tough game for most. It's easy for some, harder for others. It took me about 60 hours to finish one play through with a character that was SL 93 at the end. Other players have done it in a matter of a few hours with a character far lower level. Some people will never finish it.

The plunge attack works differently on smaller enemies than it does on bosses (again you have to land on them, whereas small enemies just need to be hit) while it's pretty easy to learn (like I said I figured it out on my second character) you never have the opportunity to find it's a special attack if you do it like the game tells you to, I thought for a while it was only a stronger melee move, and thus wasn't worth it as I got hit when I tried to climb the ladder on the minotaur boss (of course I learned how good it was later).

Incidentally, the part where I quit was where the game forced me to die and lose the 40,000+ souls I had, I was in the old city, in a tower that kept going downward, when I finally reached the bottom of the stairs I saw a giant black hole below me, I had no idea what to do, so I ran back up the stairs, only to find I couldn't leave the tower because fog was in the way and my character wouldn't walk through it, I didn't want to lose those souls, so I ran up and down the stairs several times, before hopping into the blackness at the bottom, and dying instantly. When it came to that point I said FUCK THIS, and left.

The worst part about this is on my first character, the plunge attack didn't miss the first boss, it hit him, and did slightly higher melee damage which is why I thought it was nothing special.

Those people that fail to finish it aren't the victims of bad design. They are either not skilled enough or they are not playing "correctly". Dark Souls rewards a certain play style: slow, methodical and careful, with attention to detail. You have to craft a good build, matching weapons to stats and choosing the right armour, rings and weapons for different encounters. If you can't do those things, you'll probably have a tough time.

I actually agree here, you do need this playing style, which is why I disagree with some of the levels like tomb of the giants where if you don't get items the game never tells you about you CAN'T be slow and methodical, same with the knights.

Nito was a pretty good boss though, and for another good boss, I can look at demons souls, as the false king boss was awesome. He was pattern based, but you needed to have good timing you needed to watch and see what moves he was going to do, when he did his big blast attack, you needed to decide if it was close enough to charge and knock him out of it before he could do it, or if you should just run, and because of all of these you had a big feeling of accomplishment when you finally beat him.

 

[Zom-B]

Incidentally, the part where I quit was where the game forced me to die and lose the 40,000+ souls I had, I was in the old city, in a tower that kept going downward, when I finally reached the bottom of the stairs I saw a giant black hole below me, I had no idea what to do, so I ran back up the stairs, only to find I couldn't leave the tower because fog was in the way and my character wouldn't walk through it, I didn't want to lose those souls, so I ran up and down the stairs several times, before hopping into the blackness at the bottom, and dying instantly. When it came to that point I said FUCK THIS, and left.

At the risk of further pissing you off, please tell me you didn't have a Homeward Bone in your inventory? Those things are invaluable. I actually got my character stuck in the landscape at one point and couldn't get out. No amount of rolling, jumping, loading or anything would get me unstuck. I was actually thinking I would literally have to start the game over because of it. Then I remembered the Homeward Bones and simply teleported back to the Bonfire.

 

[Warachia]

Incidentally, the part where I quit was where the game forced me to die and lose the 40,000+ souls I had, I was in the old city, in a tower that kept going downward, when I finally reached the bottom of the stairs I saw a giant black hole below me, I had no idea what to do, so I ran back up the stairs, only to find I couldn't leave the tower because fog was in the way and my character wouldn't walk through it, I didn't want to lose those souls, so I ran up and down the stairs several times, before hopping into the blackness at the bottom, and dying instantly. When it came to that point I said FUCK THIS, and left.

At the risk of further pissing you off, please tell me you didn't have a Homeward Bone in your inventory? Those things are invaluable. I actually got my character stuck in the landscape at one point and couldn't get out. No amount of rolling, jumping, loading or anything would get me unstuck. I was actually thinking I would literally have to start the game over because of it. Then I remembered the Homeward Bones and simply teleported back to the Bonfire.

No I didn't have any more on me, they had been used previously when I was trying to get through the tomb of giants.

 

[Zom-B]

Incidentally, the part where I quit was where the game forced me to die and lose the 40,000+ souls I had, I was in the old city, in a tower that kept going downward, when I finally reached the bottom of the stairs I saw a giant black hole below me, I had no idea what to do, so I ran back up the stairs, only to find I couldn't leave the tower because fog was in the way and my character wouldn't walk through it, I didn't want to lose those souls, so I ran up and down the stairs several times, before hopping into the blackness at the bottom, and dying instantly. When it came to that point I said FUCK THIS, and left.

At the risk of further pissing you off, please tell me you didn't have a Homeward Bone in your inventory? Those things are invaluable. I actually got my character stuck in the landscape at one point and couldn't get out. No amount of rolling, jumping, loading or anything would get me unstuck. I was actually thinking I would literally have to start the game over because of it. Then I remembered the Homeward Bones and simply teleported back to the Bonfire.

No I didn't have any more on me, they had been used previously when I was trying to get through the tomb of giants.

For the record, I also died falling down there, despite having the Ring of Artorias in my inventory. I did not know that was the entrance to the Abyss until after I had died.

It's a sunova ***** game, isn't it? But it's also awesome and I was really happy that I finished it.

 

[Warachia]

Incidentally, the part where I quit was where the game forced me to die and lose the 40,000+ souls I had, I was in the old city, in a tower that kept going downward, when I finally reached the bottom of the stairs I saw a giant black hole below me, I had no idea what to do, so I ran back up the stairs, only to find I couldn't leave the tower because fog was in the way and my character wouldn't walk through it, I didn't want to lose those souls, so I ran up and down the stairs several times, before hopping into the blackness at the bottom, and dying instantly. When it came to that point I said FUCK THIS, and left.

At the risk of further pissing you off, please tell me you didn't have a Homeward Bone in your inventory? Those things are invaluable. I actually got my character stuck in the landscape at one point and couldn't get out. No amount of rolling, jumping, loading or anything would get me unstuck. I was actually thinking I would literally have to start the game over because of it. Then I remembered the Homeward Bones and simply teleported back to the Bonfire.

No I didn't have any more on me, they had been used previously when I was trying to get through the tomb of giants.

For the record, I also died falling down there, despite having the Ring of Artorias in my inventory. I did not know that was the entrance to the Abyss until after I had died.

It's a sunova ***** game, isn't it? But it's also awesome and I was really happy that I finished it.

what I find sad is all of the problems I bring up have very easy fixes, like letting you out of the entrance to the abyss, telling you only holy weapons can kill some skeletons, or telling you about the skull lantern, it's not like I'm asking for much, but a bunch of small things add up to big problems.

 

[Zom-B]

what I find sad is all of the problems I bring up have very easy fixes, like letting you out of the entrance to the abyss, telling you only holy weapons can kill some skeletons, or telling you about the skull lantern, it's not like I'm asking for much, but a bunch of small things add up to big problems.

I think the things that you see as problems, like the lack of information on where/how/what you're supposed to do, is a big draw for a lot of players. The game throws you into a game world and says "survive or die". Many of us only have patience for a certain amount of trial and error. Myself, I'll usually give a boss, a section, certain area or problem a good 8 or 10 tries on my own and if by the last time I don't feel I'm any closer to a solution or overcoming the enemy, then I'll refer to the wiki. I'm willing to give it a good go, but I'm also not willing to spend hours and hours repeating the same thing over and over.

Sometimes my problem has been lack of knowledge, sometimes just employing the wrong tactics, but rarely did I feel like the game really needed more in game information. I liked the fact that at the start, and even throughout much of the game, we all felt somewhat lost or baffled. I don't want to say it's like real life, but in some ways it is. There's no manual for real life. You don't always have someone telling you exactly what needs to be doen. Sometimes you just have to muddle through as best you can. And Dark Souls, just like life, can be frustrating, baffling, annoying.

Personally, the things you dislike about the game, I see as strengths. A return to gaming as a brain exercise, not a fast twitch experience. Not that fast twitch gaming is bad, it's just different and it's nice to have variety. I have my own preferences for gaming and I'm not a huge fan of FPSes, for example. I'm not great at the modern shooters and if I play on line, I regularly get my ass handed to me because I don't put in the time to get all the nuance down. Dark Souls is the same way. If you're not willing to sit there and endure some frustration and confusion while you figure out how the game works, you won't be satisfied. Heck, with both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls I had to start a second or third character before I figured the game out. My initial characters always seemed to run into a wall because I didn't allocate my Souls in the best way. A second start usually helped me correct those problems.

What can I say? I love the game. I think it's as good as anything out there, hands down. It doesn't work for you? Bummer, I guess. I won't lose any sleep over it, but it's too bad that you can't appreciate it in the same way I and others do.

If you keep plugging away, good luck and don't hesitate to consult the wikis out there. They can mean the difference between rage quits and a fun play through.

 

[Warachia]

what I find sad is all of the problems I bring up have very easy fixes, like letting you out of the entrance to the abyss, telling you only holy weapons can kill some skeletons, or telling you about the skull lantern, it's not like I'm asking for much, but a bunch of small things add up to big problems.

I think the things that you see as problems, like the lack of information on where/how/what you're supposed to do, is a big draw for a lot of players. The game throws you into a game world and says "survive or die". Many of us only have patience for a certain amount of trial and error. Myself, I'll usually give a boss, a section, certain area or problem a good 8 or 10 tries on my own and if by the last time I don't feel I'm any closer to a solution or overcoming the enemy, then I'll refer to the wiki. I'm willing to give it a good go, but I'm also not willing to spend hours and hours repeating the same thing over and over.

Sometimes my problem has been lack of knowledge, sometimes just employing the wrong tactics, but rarely did I feel like the game really needed more in game information. I liked the fact that at the start, and even throughout much of the game, we all felt somewhat lost or baffled. I don't want to say it's like real life, but in some ways it is. There's no manual for real life. You don't always have someone telling you exactly what needs to be doen. Sometimes you just have to muddle through as best you can. And Dark Souls, just like life, can be frustrating, baffling, annoying.

Personally, the things you dislike about the game, I see as strengths. A return to gaming as a brain exercise, not a fast twitch experience. Not that fast twitch gaming is bad, it's just different and it's nice to have variety. I have my own preferences for gaming and I'm not a huge fan of FPSes, for example. I'm not great at the modern shooters and if I play on line, I regularly get my ass handed to me because I don't put in the time to get all the nuance down. Dark Souls is the same way. If you're not willing to sit there and endure some frustration and confusion while you figure out how the game works, you won't be satisfied. Heck, with both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls I had to start a second or third character before I figured the game out. My initial characters always seemed to run into a wall because I didn't allocate my Souls in the best way. A second start usually helped me correct those problems.

What can I say? I love the game. I think it's as good as anything out there, hands down. It doesn't work for you? Bummer, I guess. I won't lose any sleep over it, but it's too bad that you can't appreciate it in the same way I and others do.

If you keep plugging away, good luck and don't hesitate to consult the wikis out there. They can mean the difference between rage quits and a fun play through.

Ok, I can see why people like the idea of being thrown in a place with next to no information, but even if life you can ask people for advice, something you can't do in dark souls, the problem for me is the same problem I had when playing nethack, I feel like I'm missing out on a massive portion of the game, and after I started checking the wiki (which happened somewhere around 20+ failed attempts on the giant's tomb) I found out that indeed I had missed a massive part of the game. Maybe if the game was more sandboxy with more emphasis on exploration, and seeing the new world they'd created I'd be able to get into the feel of it more (but then it would be an entirely different game which I realize would ruin the point), as it feels now, it gives more of a feeling I get when I miss a collectable, that I missed it and don't care any more about the stuff I missed. This just dulled the entire experience for me, tainting even the really fun parts.

Another problem is that a lot of the game is more obtuse than anything, and this can lead to a situation where my character is built in a way that makes taking on the next section a lot more frustrating than it should be, because I built a character in a way that went well with the current level and for how I liked to play, and the game was really fun in those parts, but then you run into, for example, Ornstien and Smough, and they seemed to have only one solution which is a form of ranged attacks as I could not physically run fast enough to escape the attacks of the guy I was going to kill second after I killed the first one. So I had to grind (never a good thing) to get my dexterity up, grind to buy arrows, then grind every time to buy more arrows after they killed me. When I finally did kill them it took 200+ regular arrows, and that's only one fight against the second form, not the times I died as well, I was stuck on them for far longer than the tomb of the giants. A funny thing though is they'd be okay bosses, if you could fight them one at a time, maybe fight the spear one will the fat one rarely supports by throwing stuff and mostly watches, or fight the fat one and the spear one occasionally shoots a lightning bolt at you, then when you kill one, you switch over to the other. Or better yet, have it so the survivor doesn't gain all of his HP back after you kill one of them, then you could use some tact wand whittle them both down.

Another thing I'd like is if the game stuck to it's own rules, there are skeletons outside the skeleton dungeon, but these can be killed without any holy weapon, so not knowing about holy weapons at the time, I explored it a bit, got almost to the first checkpoint (I just kicked the skeletons on the pathway down that pit) where I suddenly realized that the ones I couldn't kick down a pit weren't staying dead like the outside ones. So what did I miss to avoid dying there?

Also, I did manage to beat demons souls, and I don't hate dark souls, I just feel that, like demons souls, there were several things they could have done that would immensely improve it. Incidentally, I did mention that I tried different characters, and I got far enough to kill Nito before I called it quits.

 

[Zom-B]

Ok, I can see why people like the idea of being thrown in a place with next to no information, but even if life you can ask people for advice, something you can't do in dark souls, the problem for me is the same problem I had when playing nethack, I feel like I'm missing out on a massive portion of the game, and after I started checking the wiki (which happened somewhere around 20+ failed attempts on the giant's tomb) I found out that indeed I had missed a massive part of the game. Maybe if the game was more sandboxy with more emphasis on exploration, and seeing the new world they'd created I'd be able to get into the feel of it more (but then it would be an entirely different game which I realize would ruin the point), as it feels now, it gives more of a feeling I get when I miss a collectable, that I missed it and don't care any more about the stuff I missed. This just dulled the entire experience for me, tainting even the really fun parts.

Another problem is that a lot of the game is more obtuse than anything, and this can lead to a situation where my character is built in a way that makes taking on the next section a lot more frustrating than it should be, because I built a character in a way that went well with the current level and for how I liked to play, and the game was really fun in those parts, but then you run into, for example, Ornstien and Smough, and they seemed to have only one solution which is a form of ranged attacks as I could not physically run fast enough to escape the attacks of the guy I was going to kill second after I killed the first one. So I had to grind (never a good thing) to get my dexterity up, grind to buy arrows, then grind every time to buy more arrows after they killed me. When I finally did kill them it took 200+ regular arrows, and that's only one fight against the second form, not the times I died as well, I was stuck on them for far longer than the tomb of the giants. A funny thing though is they'd be okay bosses, if you could fight them one at a time, maybe fight the spear one will the fat one rarely supports by throwing stuff and mostly watches, or fight the fat one and the spear one occasionally shoots a lightning bolt at you, then when you kill one, you switch over to the other. Or better yet, have it so the survivor doesn't gain all of his HP back after you kill one of them, then you could use some tact wand whittle them both down.

Another thing I'd like is if the game stuck to it's own rules, there are skeletons outside the skeleton dungeon, but these can be killed without any holy weapon, so not knowing about holy weapons at the time, I explored it a bit, got almost to the first checkpoint (I just kicked the skeletons on the pathway down that pit) where I suddenly realized that the ones I couldn't kick down a pit weren't staying dead like the outside ones. So what did I miss to avoid dying there?

Also, I did manage to beat demons souls, and I don't hate dark souls, I just feel that, like demons souls, there were several things they could have done that would immensely improve it. Incidentally, I did mention that I tried different characters, and I got far enough to kill Nito before I called it quits.

Well, without getting to long-winded...

- Difference of opinion. Again, I felt the opposite as you. I thought the exploration was quite sufficient, even if it was limited by a landscape that was impassable in many areas. That was the idea. If anyone went in expecting a Skyrim type exploration game, then yeah, they'd be disppointed.

- Yup, I agree here, somewhat. The game will punish you for a build that isn't well rounded or highly focussed and specialized in some devastating way. Many problems can be alleviated by equipment though. I used Havel's armour to defeat Ornstein and Smough, when usually I wore a lighter kit for speed. It took me a few tries, but with the right combination of equipment, a little luck, a little strategy and a little skill, I beat those fuckers. But I too had to spend some time getting stronger after I first met them before I could beat them. It's the nature of the game.

- The skeletons in the catacombs are resurrected by the necromancers. Once you kill the necros, they stay dead even after you die, so the skeletons they were linked to no longer resurrect. There were no necromancers in the Tomb of Giants, so I suppose that's why the ones in there didn't resurrect. Same for the skeletons in the cemetery outside Firelink Shrine. No necro there either, so they stay dead when you kill 'em.

- I never did finish Demon's Souls, but it was only partly because I got stuck. I was having a hell of a time with Shrine of Storms and had decided to put the game away for a week or two. Then my PS3 died. I'm starting over now, right from the start and hopefully I'll be able to apply everything from my last game, plus beating Dark Souls, and finish the damn thing this time.

Cheers

 

[Warachia]

Well, without getting to long-winded...

- Difference of opinion. Again, I felt the opposite as you. I thought the exploration was quite sufficient, even if it was limited by a landscape that was impassable in many areas. That was the idea. If anyone went in expecting a Skyrim type exploration game, then yeah, they'd be disppointed.

- Yup, I agree here, somewhat. The game will punish you for a build that isn't well rounded or highly focussed and specialized in some devastating way. Many problems can be alleviated by equipment though. I used Havel's armour to defeat Ornstein and Smough, when usually I wore a lighter kit for speed. It took me a few tries, but with the right combination of equipment, a little luck, a little strategy and a little skill, I beat those fuckers. But I too had to spend some time getting stronger after I first met them before I could beat them. It's the nature of the game.

- The skeletons in the catacombs are resurrected by the necromancers. Once you kill the necros, they stay dead even after you die, so the skeletons they were linked to no longer resurrect. There were no necromancers in the Tomb of Giants, so I suppose that's why the ones in there didn't resurrect. Same for the skeletons in the cemetery outside Firelink Shrine. No necro there either, so they stay dead when you kill 'em.

- I never did finish Demon's Souls, but it was only partly because I got stuck. I was having a hell of a time with Shrine of Storms and had decided to put the game away for a week or two. Then my PS3 died. I'm starting over now, right from the start and hopefully I'll be able to apply everything from my last game, plus beating Dark Souls, and finish the damn thing this time.

Cheers

Fair enough then, guess we'll just agree to disagree, like I said I realized a skyrim like game would ruin the feel, and for the most part dark souls exceeded my expectations of what it would be, except for the latter problems. You can tell we play the games different though as I found the shrine of storms the easiest of all of them.

Incidentally, I must have a bugged copy then, because on one of the runs through when I didn't have a holy weapon, I killed some necromancers, and the skeletons still didn't die. Oh well.

 

[Rabidkitten]

The whole Dark Souls is so hard ranting totally confuses me. It's hard? Since when, it's a good bit easier then recent ball busters like Binding of Isaac. And it shys in comparison to some of the horrendous offerings of old like Ikaruga, or Jak and Daxter 2(so hard so fucking hard). And if we jump back to the early 90s and late 80s the average game would make dark souls look like a walk in the park. Go boot up an old Gold Box AD$D game and tell me how many battles it took until you died, some of them are essentially impossible with out an imported party from previous games.

Are gamers just soft around the edges, are jokishly easy games like Portal 2, Bastion, and Skyrim really the bar of challenge nowadays? I hear people tell me about struggling in Skyrim and it baffles my mind, the game has a quick save button, no game with a quick save button is hard, no matter how you slice it. Except Half-life 1 on Hard mode...

And Yahtzee, who is a critic with a wide audience can't take it? Like couldn't even beat the Taurus Demon take it? I would except critics who play games for a living and make purchasing recommendations to be some of the most decorated gamers... guess not.

On the Taurus Demon. If you read the notes they will tell you to climb the tower and kill the archers before fighting the demon. and if you remember back to the asylum demon, fall attacking is a good trick as well, and that gold pine resin in the chest just outside his lair might be useful, you never know.


(Note: If you fail to go up into the Burg at the beginning of the game try to brave the tomb of the giants or New Londo at soul level 1, then you yes they game would be hard, very hard, but, I assume the path of least resistance will eventually show up. Especially since both those paths can lead to dead ends).

 

[Portal Operater]

You know what is worse than seeing a "you died screen" and then a option to lower the difficulty? Dying to a timed puzzle that not only has infinite foes, but instant death traps if you fail the puzzle. I'm looking at you, god of war (one & two). No, lowering the difficulty will not help when an one hit KO spiked ceiling falls on me. Otherwise normal isn't too difficult. Just a couple trys here and there, and you will be set.

 

[Multiples]

I was really looking forward to seeing what Yahtzee's reaction to Dark Souls would be. It improved upon almost everything that was in Demon's Souls, and seemed to me to be a bit easier. Blocking seemed to be improved, in fact, and even a Hollow Soldier's Shield and a little endurance made even Smough and Orenstein laughable. Dying to the first boss more than a handful of times? I'm not sure how it's possible, and then I realized there is a recurring comment in every argument about Dark Soul's "fake" difficulty. People complain about the hoards of mobs that weaken you between the bonfires and the bosses. You should not be taking damage. There are several ranged weapons, shields that block 100% physical damage, and a roll with invulnerable frames. These tools are available before the first boss fight. People who do not use these tools are playing a completely different game from the people who enjoy Dark Souls for its "difficulty," and don't realize it. If anyone wants evidence, there are plenty of people's playthroughs on youtube, and observing clips from several different players will show that skill can make this game heaven or hell. I am certainly sympathetic to those who did not wear the "Covenant of Artorias" at the right time, did not know about the first fight with Seath or the path to fight him again, or did not have any idea how to get the Peculiar Doll, and I feel that those are very legitimate complaints. Unfortunately some players don't make it that far, and I am disappointed that there were no comments about this game after the first real boss.

 

[shadowyoasis]

I never really read these extra punctuations and I'm going back to read them but it also baffles me that people find dark souls hard. It is hard in the beginning but its an unusual game. It has hints which tell you what to do and where to go.

Theres an npc that tells you where to go, if you talk to him. If you don't thats a different story. He gets replaced by a giant worm and goes mad shortly after but the worm then tells you what to do.

Taurus demon, probably hard if you can't read the hints. But he's a joke for the most part.

I had a divine crossbow and went in with a divine sword into the catacombs wasn't hard at all to clear though the mess of mobs there. Skeletons just drop dead with a divine weapon and necros can easily be taken out at range with a ranged weapon. Making your life easier.

Tomb of giants is tricky but if you don't run and walk slowly with a shield out you'll make it far and safe enough into it to get the skull latern drop. I was a sorcerer on my first playthrough though so I had the light spell which made the entire place a joke. The enemies have a severely reduced aggro range and you can easily skip and ignore a majority of them. You shouldn't be in there before sen's fortress anyways and sen's fortress gives you a ring that silences your footsteps which makes the task of avoiding them all the more easier.

Shield + Spear and your pretty much on easy mode. One thing with this game is that stats however nice are not really what make the game easier its your gear. If you fail to keep your gear up then the game will become significantly harder. An unmodified longsword does a joke for damage, but upgraded down any path and it suddenly becomes a monster of a weapon.

These things are somewhat lost on a lot of people, though for some unknown reason.

 

[Jfswift]

I loved the shit out of demon's souls and dark souls and became hopelessly addicted to both for a period of time. It's the masochist in me.. and the need to feel loved...

This game hates me so much.. i just want it to care... why won't it hug me? Why won't it say it even likes me? if i keep playing with it maybe it will learn to tollerate me!!!

LMAO

But yes. It's rubbing your face in it after you die that generally does get annoying and even infuriating. Though i managed to accept it with these 2 games.

Solaire will give you a hug

 

[Gulzt]

Whoops, I'm a year late on the discussion, but I like to add my 2 cents anyway. Only now did I play Rayman Origins, so I can finally relate to what Yahtzee writes. Or can I?

Whatever Yathzee's problem is with Dark Souls, that's my problem with Rayman Origins. I'm sure he didn't play it the way I did. I managed to finish 90% of the game with 100% collectables received before I realized I was just wasting my time with a game I wasn't enjoying. And why was I not enjoying it? Because this game tells me it's too hard for me, which I find pretty damn annoying. Beating the levels is easy, no sweat, I beat most levels in one attempt, some take a few, but it's easy, no problem. I beat Super Meat Boy, so it's easy to call this a casual platformer.

What is wrong with Rayman is when you try to get 100% collectables. The levels' aren't too balanced in collecting all 350 points. In some you finish with 400 where you clearly forgot some things; in other times I barely not make it to 350 while I thought I found every secret. At this point you become a bit greedy with your hearts (because picking up a new heart represents points). Sometimes I make a tiny mistake, and lose the heart. This is fine, I just jump in a pit and try it again. Or I miss hitting a bubble; same story. This is where the frustration comes. The game tells me every 10(?) deaths that the level is too hard for me and that I should probably try something else. Well, in some parts it is a challenge to collect all points between two checkpoints; (to find out later you could have done it without those specific points) and I die repeatedly. On purpose mind you, because I want another change to collect all the points.

I instantly quit playing when that menu popped up and I accidentally agreed and was thrown out of the level. All my hard work for nothing!

Rayman is fun to play through, but a huge pain in the *ss when attempted to collect 100%.

--
About Dark Souls, I don't see how this is ever frustrating to people. Same for Demon's Souls. It's unforgiving but never really unfair. It's rare that you die from something that was not your fault. The mechanics are so super smooth and perfect that you can always blame yourself from dying.

Hard games can frustrate me, especially when I feel they are unfair. I would beat them and then find out I didn't really enjoy it. Dark Souls is the big exception. I am not irritated in the slightest when I die. That's why I love it so much. I'm eager to get past a difficult part and it's satisfying when I do. The more you die, the more satisfying getting past. I guess if you die tenfold it could get annoying; but I suppose you just suck as a gamer if you die that often.

 

[strumbore]

I really hope Croshaw ends up reviewing Dark Souls 2, if only so he can understand the nature of it's appeal, which is the same as problem gambling. Each failure teases the ego, which causes the player to become more and more convinced that triumph and grand achievement is just within his grasp.

 

[Diegolomac]

I really hope Croshaw ends up reviewing Dark Souls 2, if only so he can understand the nature of it's appeal, which is the same as problem gambling. Each failure teases the ego, which causes the player to become more and more convinced that triumph and grand achievement is just within his grasp.

He did say on the last Escapist Expo that after watching a few playthroughs online, he finally understood the appeal of the game, but he didn't have the patience to play it himself. So I guess he probably won't make a video review of it. At best, he'll make a short commentary like he did here.