Death Mechanics and Dark Souls

[Warachia]

what I find sad is all of the problems I bring up have very easy fixes, like letting you out of the entrance to the abyss, telling you only holy weapons can kill some skeletons, or telling you about the skull lantern, it's not like I'm asking for much, but a bunch of small things add up to big problems.

I think the things that you see as problems, like the lack of information on where/how/what you're supposed to do, is a big draw for a lot of players. The game throws you into a game world and says "survive or die". Many of us only have patience for a certain amount of trial and error. Myself, I'll usually give a boss, a section, certain area or problem a good 8 or 10 tries on my own and if by the last time I don't feel I'm any closer to a solution or overcoming the enemy, then I'll refer to the wiki. I'm willing to give it a good go, but I'm also not willing to spend hours and hours repeating the same thing over and over.

Sometimes my problem has been lack of knowledge, sometimes just employing the wrong tactics, but rarely did I feel like the game really needed more in game information. I liked the fact that at the start, and even throughout much of the game, we all felt somewhat lost or baffled. I don't want to say it's like real life, but in some ways it is. There's no manual for real life. You don't always have someone telling you exactly what needs to be doen. Sometimes you just have to muddle through as best you can. And Dark Souls, just like life, can be frustrating, baffling, annoying.

Personally, the things you dislike about the game, I see as strengths. A return to gaming as a brain exercise, not a fast twitch experience. Not that fast twitch gaming is bad, it's just different and it's nice to have variety. I have my own preferences for gaming and I'm not a huge fan of FPSes, for example. I'm not great at the modern shooters and if I play on line, I regularly get my ass handed to me because I don't put in the time to get all the nuance down. Dark Souls is the same way. If you're not willing to sit there and endure some frustration and confusion while you figure out how the game works, you won't be satisfied. Heck, with both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls I had to start a second or third character before I figured the game out. My initial characters always seemed to run into a wall because I didn't allocate my Souls in the best way. A second start usually helped me correct those problems.

What can I say? I love the game. I think it's as good as anything out there, hands down. It doesn't work for you? Bummer, I guess. I won't lose any sleep over it, but it's too bad that you can't appreciate it in the same way I and others do.

If you keep plugging away, good luck and don't hesitate to consult the wikis out there. They can mean the difference between rage quits and a fun play through.

Ok, I can see why people like the idea of being thrown in a place with next to no information, but even if life you can ask people for advice, something you can't do in dark souls, the problem for me is the same problem I had when playing nethack, I feel like I'm missing out on a massive portion of the game, and after I started checking the wiki (which happened somewhere around 20+ failed attempts on the giant's tomb) I found out that indeed I had missed a massive part of the game. Maybe if the game was more sandboxy with more emphasis on exploration, and seeing the new world they'd created I'd be able to get into the feel of it more (but then it would be an entirely different game which I realize would ruin the point), as it feels now, it gives more of a feeling I get when I miss a collectable, that I missed it and don't care any more about the stuff I missed. This just dulled the entire experience for me, tainting even the really fun parts.

Another problem is that a lot of the game is more obtuse than anything, and this can lead to a situation where my character is built in a way that makes taking on the next section a lot more frustrating than it should be, because I built a character in a way that went well with the current level and for how I liked to play, and the game was really fun in those parts, but then you run into, for example, Ornstien and Smough, and they seemed to have only one solution which is a form of ranged attacks as I could not physically run fast enough to escape the attacks of the guy I was going to kill second after I killed the first one. So I had to grind (never a good thing) to get my dexterity up, grind to buy arrows, then grind every time to buy more arrows after they killed me. When I finally did kill them it took 200+ regular arrows, and that's only one fight against the second form, not the times I died as well, I was stuck on them for far longer than the tomb of the giants. A funny thing though is they'd be okay bosses, if you could fight them one at a time, maybe fight the spear one will the fat one rarely supports by throwing stuff and mostly watches, or fight the fat one and the spear one occasionally shoots a lightning bolt at you, then when you kill one, you switch over to the other. Or better yet, have it so the survivor doesn't gain all of his HP back after you kill one of them, then you could use some tact wand whittle them both down.

Another thing I'd like is if the game stuck to it's own rules, there are skeletons outside the skeleton dungeon, but these can be killed without any holy weapon, so not knowing about holy weapons at the time, I explored it a bit, got almost to the first checkpoint (I just kicked the skeletons on the pathway down that pit) where I suddenly realized that the ones I couldn't kick down a pit weren't staying dead like the outside ones. So what did I miss to avoid dying there?

Also, I did manage to beat demons souls, and I don't hate dark souls, I just feel that, like demons souls, there were several things they could have done that would immensely improve it. Incidentally, I did mention that I tried different characters, and I got far enough to kill Nito before I called it quits.

 

[Zom-B]

Ok, I can see why people like the idea of being thrown in a place with next to no information, but even if life you can ask people for advice, something you can't do in dark souls, the problem for me is the same problem I had when playing nethack, I feel like I'm missing out on a massive portion of the game, and after I started checking the wiki (which happened somewhere around 20+ failed attempts on the giant's tomb) I found out that indeed I had missed a massive part of the game. Maybe if the game was more sandboxy with more emphasis on exploration, and seeing the new world they'd created I'd be able to get into the feel of it more (but then it would be an entirely different game which I realize would ruin the point), as it feels now, it gives more of a feeling I get when I miss a collectable, that I missed it and don't care any more about the stuff I missed. This just dulled the entire experience for me, tainting even the really fun parts.

Another problem is that a lot of the game is more obtuse than anything, and this can lead to a situation where my character is built in a way that makes taking on the next section a lot more frustrating than it should be, because I built a character in a way that went well with the current level and for how I liked to play, and the game was really fun in those parts, but then you run into, for example, Ornstien and Smough, and they seemed to have only one solution which is a form of ranged attacks as I could not physically run fast enough to escape the attacks of the guy I was going to kill second after I killed the first one. So I had to grind (never a good thing) to get my dexterity up, grind to buy arrows, then grind every time to buy more arrows after they killed me. When I finally did kill them it took 200+ regular arrows, and that's only one fight against the second form, not the times I died as well, I was stuck on them for far longer than the tomb of the giants. A funny thing though is they'd be okay bosses, if you could fight them one at a time, maybe fight the spear one will the fat one rarely supports by throwing stuff and mostly watches, or fight the fat one and the spear one occasionally shoots a lightning bolt at you, then when you kill one, you switch over to the other. Or better yet, have it so the survivor doesn't gain all of his HP back after you kill one of them, then you could use some tact wand whittle them both down.

Another thing I'd like is if the game stuck to it's own rules, there are skeletons outside the skeleton dungeon, but these can be killed without any holy weapon, so not knowing about holy weapons at the time, I explored it a bit, got almost to the first checkpoint (I just kicked the skeletons on the pathway down that pit) where I suddenly realized that the ones I couldn't kick down a pit weren't staying dead like the outside ones. So what did I miss to avoid dying there?

Also, I did manage to beat demons souls, and I don't hate dark souls, I just feel that, like demons souls, there were several things they could have done that would immensely improve it. Incidentally, I did mention that I tried different characters, and I got far enough to kill Nito before I called it quits.

Well, without getting to long-winded...

- Difference of opinion. Again, I felt the opposite as you. I thought the exploration was quite sufficient, even if it was limited by a landscape that was impassable in many areas. That was the idea. If anyone went in expecting a Skyrim type exploration game, then yeah, they'd be disppointed.

- Yup, I agree here, somewhat. The game will punish you for a build that isn't well rounded or highly focussed and specialized in some devastating way. Many problems can be alleviated by equipment though. I used Havel's armour to defeat Ornstein and Smough, when usually I wore a lighter kit for speed. It took me a few tries, but with the right combination of equipment, a little luck, a little strategy and a little skill, I beat those fuckers. But I too had to spend some time getting stronger after I first met them before I could beat them. It's the nature of the game.

- The skeletons in the catacombs are resurrected by the necromancers. Once you kill the necros, they stay dead even after you die, so the skeletons they were linked to no longer resurrect. There were no necromancers in the Tomb of Giants, so I suppose that's why the ones in there didn't resurrect. Same for the skeletons in the cemetery outside Firelink Shrine. No necro there either, so they stay dead when you kill 'em.

- I never did finish Demon's Souls, but it was only partly because I got stuck. I was having a hell of a time with Shrine of Storms and had decided to put the game away for a week or two. Then my PS3 died. I'm starting over now, right from the start and hopefully I'll be able to apply everything from my last game, plus beating Dark Souls, and finish the damn thing this time.

Cheers

 

[Warachia]

Well, without getting to long-winded...

- Difference of opinion. Again, I felt the opposite as you. I thought the exploration was quite sufficient, even if it was limited by a landscape that was impassable in many areas. That was the idea. If anyone went in expecting a Skyrim type exploration game, then yeah, they'd be disppointed.

- Yup, I agree here, somewhat. The game will punish you for a build that isn't well rounded or highly focussed and specialized in some devastating way. Many problems can be alleviated by equipment though. I used Havel's armour to defeat Ornstein and Smough, when usually I wore a lighter kit for speed. It took me a few tries, but with the right combination of equipment, a little luck, a little strategy and a little skill, I beat those fuckers. But I too had to spend some time getting stronger after I first met them before I could beat them. It's the nature of the game.

- The skeletons in the catacombs are resurrected by the necromancers. Once you kill the necros, they stay dead even after you die, so the skeletons they were linked to no longer resurrect. There were no necromancers in the Tomb of Giants, so I suppose that's why the ones in there didn't resurrect. Same for the skeletons in the cemetery outside Firelink Shrine. No necro there either, so they stay dead when you kill 'em.

- I never did finish Demon's Souls, but it was only partly because I got stuck. I was having a hell of a time with Shrine of Storms and had decided to put the game away for a week or two. Then my PS3 died. I'm starting over now, right from the start and hopefully I'll be able to apply everything from my last game, plus beating Dark Souls, and finish the damn thing this time.

Cheers

Fair enough then, guess we'll just agree to disagree, like I said I realized a skyrim like game would ruin the feel, and for the most part dark souls exceeded my expectations of what it would be, except for the latter problems. You can tell we play the games different though as I found the shrine of storms the easiest of all of them.

Incidentally, I must have a bugged copy then, because on one of the runs through when I didn't have a holy weapon, I killed some necromancers, and the skeletons still didn't die. Oh well.

 

[Rabidkitten]

The whole Dark Souls is so hard ranting totally confuses me. It's hard? Since when, it's a good bit easier then recent ball busters like Binding of Isaac. And it shys in comparison to some of the horrendous offerings of old like Ikaruga, or Jak and Daxter 2(so hard so fucking hard). And if we jump back to the early 90s and late 80s the average game would make dark souls look like a walk in the park. Go boot up an old Gold Box AD$D game and tell me how many battles it took until you died, some of them are essentially impossible with out an imported party from previous games.

Are gamers just soft around the edges, are jokishly easy games like Portal 2, Bastion, and Skyrim really the bar of challenge nowadays? I hear people tell me about struggling in Skyrim and it baffles my mind, the game has a quick save button, no game with a quick save button is hard, no matter how you slice it. Except Half-life 1 on Hard mode...

And Yahtzee, who is a critic with a wide audience can't take it? Like couldn't even beat the Taurus Demon take it? I would except critics who play games for a living and make purchasing recommendations to be some of the most decorated gamers... guess not.

On the Taurus Demon. If you read the notes they will tell you to climb the tower and kill the archers before fighting the demon. and if you remember back to the asylum demon, fall attacking is a good trick as well, and that gold pine resin in the chest just outside his lair might be useful, you never know.


(Note: If you fail to go up into the Burg at the beginning of the game try to brave the tomb of the giants or New Londo at soul level 1, then you yes they game would be hard, very hard, but, I assume the path of least resistance will eventually show up. Especially since both those paths can lead to dead ends).

 

[Portal Operater]

You know what is worse than seeing a "you died screen" and then a option to lower the difficulty? Dying to a timed puzzle that not only has infinite foes, but instant death traps if you fail the puzzle. I'm looking at you, god of war (one & two). No, lowering the difficulty will not help when an one hit KO spiked ceiling falls on me. Otherwise normal isn't too difficult. Just a couple trys here and there, and you will be set.

 

[Multiples]

I was really looking forward to seeing what Yahtzee's reaction to Dark Souls would be. It improved upon almost everything that was in Demon's Souls, and seemed to me to be a bit easier. Blocking seemed to be improved, in fact, and even a Hollow Soldier's Shield and a little endurance made even Smough and Orenstein laughable. Dying to the first boss more than a handful of times? I'm not sure how it's possible, and then I realized there is a recurring comment in every argument about Dark Soul's "fake" difficulty. People complain about the hoards of mobs that weaken you between the bonfires and the bosses. You should not be taking damage. There are several ranged weapons, shields that block 100% physical damage, and a roll with invulnerable frames. These tools are available before the first boss fight. People who do not use these tools are playing a completely different game from the people who enjoy Dark Souls for its "difficulty," and don't realize it. If anyone wants evidence, there are plenty of people's playthroughs on youtube, and observing clips from several different players will show that skill can make this game heaven or hell. I am certainly sympathetic to those who did not wear the "Covenant of Artorias" at the right time, did not know about the first fight with Seath or the path to fight him again, or did not have any idea how to get the Peculiar Doll, and I feel that those are very legitimate complaints. Unfortunately some players don't make it that far, and I am disappointed that there were no comments about this game after the first real boss.

 

[shadowyoasis]

I never really read these extra punctuations and I'm going back to read them but it also baffles me that people find dark souls hard. It is hard in the beginning but its an unusual game. It has hints which tell you what to do and where to go.

Theres an npc that tells you where to go, if you talk to him. If you don't thats a different story. He gets replaced by a giant worm and goes mad shortly after but the worm then tells you what to do.

Taurus demon, probably hard if you can't read the hints. But he's a joke for the most part.

I had a divine crossbow and went in with a divine sword into the catacombs wasn't hard at all to clear though the mess of mobs there. Skeletons just drop dead with a divine weapon and necros can easily be taken out at range with a ranged weapon. Making your life easier.

Tomb of giants is tricky but if you don't run and walk slowly with a shield out you'll make it far and safe enough into it to get the skull latern drop. I was a sorcerer on my first playthrough though so I had the light spell which made the entire place a joke. The enemies have a severely reduced aggro range and you can easily skip and ignore a majority of them. You shouldn't be in there before sen's fortress anyways and sen's fortress gives you a ring that silences your footsteps which makes the task of avoiding them all the more easier.

Shield + Spear and your pretty much on easy mode. One thing with this game is that stats however nice are not really what make the game easier its your gear. If you fail to keep your gear up then the game will become significantly harder. An unmodified longsword does a joke for damage, but upgraded down any path and it suddenly becomes a monster of a weapon.

These things are somewhat lost on a lot of people, though for some unknown reason.

 

[Jfswift]

I loved the shit out of demon's souls and dark souls and became hopelessly addicted to both for a period of time. It's the masochist in me.. and the need to feel loved...

This game hates me so much.. i just want it to care... why won't it hug me? Why won't it say it even likes me? if i keep playing with it maybe it will learn to tollerate me!!!

LMAO

But yes. It's rubbing your face in it after you die that generally does get annoying and even infuriating. Though i managed to accept it with these 2 games.

Solaire will give you a hug

 

[Gulzt]

Whoops, I'm a year late on the discussion, but I like to add my 2 cents anyway. Only now did I play Rayman Origins, so I can finally relate to what Yahtzee writes. Or can I?

Whatever Yathzee's problem is with Dark Souls, that's my problem with Rayman Origins. I'm sure he didn't play it the way I did. I managed to finish 90% of the game with 100% collectables received before I realized I was just wasting my time with a game I wasn't enjoying. And why was I not enjoying it? Because this game tells me it's too hard for me, which I find pretty damn annoying. Beating the levels is easy, no sweat, I beat most levels in one attempt, some take a few, but it's easy, no problem. I beat Super Meat Boy, so it's easy to call this a casual platformer.

What is wrong with Rayman is when you try to get 100% collectables. The levels' aren't too balanced in collecting all 350 points. In some you finish with 400 where you clearly forgot some things; in other times I barely not make it to 350 while I thought I found every secret. At this point you become a bit greedy with your hearts (because picking up a new heart represents points). Sometimes I make a tiny mistake, and lose the heart. This is fine, I just jump in a pit and try it again. Or I miss hitting a bubble; same story. This is where the frustration comes. The game tells me every 10(?) deaths that the level is too hard for me and that I should probably try something else. Well, in some parts it is a challenge to collect all points between two checkpoints; (to find out later you could have done it without those specific points) and I die repeatedly. On purpose mind you, because I want another change to collect all the points.

I instantly quit playing when that menu popped up and I accidentally agreed and was thrown out of the level. All my hard work for nothing!

Rayman is fun to play through, but a huge pain in the *ss when attempted to collect 100%.

--
About Dark Souls, I don't see how this is ever frustrating to people. Same for Demon's Souls. It's unforgiving but never really unfair. It's rare that you die from something that was not your fault. The mechanics are so super smooth and perfect that you can always blame yourself from dying.

Hard games can frustrate me, especially when I feel they are unfair. I would beat them and then find out I didn't really enjoy it. Dark Souls is the big exception. I am not irritated in the slightest when I die. That's why I love it so much. I'm eager to get past a difficult part and it's satisfying when I do. The more you die, the more satisfying getting past. I guess if you die tenfold it could get annoying; but I suppose you just suck as a gamer if you die that often.

 

[strumbore]

I really hope Croshaw ends up reviewing Dark Souls 2, if only so he can understand the nature of it's appeal, which is the same as problem gambling. Each failure teases the ego, which causes the player to become more and more convinced that triumph and grand achievement is just within his grasp.

 

[Diegolomac]

I really hope Croshaw ends up reviewing Dark Souls 2, if only so he can understand the nature of it's appeal, which is the same as problem gambling. Each failure teases the ego, which causes the player to become more and more convinced that triumph and grand achievement is just within his grasp.

He did say on the last Escapist Expo that after watching a few playthroughs online, he finally understood the appeal of the game, but he didn't have the patience to play it himself. So I guess he probably won't make a video review of it. At best, he'll make a short commentary like he did here.