Define RPG
- Thread starter Merkavar
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I said it in another thread not too long ago but, I'll put it here so you can read.
"I think the RPG term has changed in meaning. As in from it's transition from its table top origins to video games the meaning has been altered. This is of course why we see WRPG and JRPG SRPG etc. The requirements to be considered an RPG became less restrictive allowing different types of video games to be under the RPG category and technically a sub genre of the RPG.
To me, no video game fits the true definition of what RPG originally stood for back in the pen and paper days and instead fall into the sub genres that were defined when video games came about, WRPG, JRPG, SRPG. etc.
I see this as similar to what words like 'gay' and '******' where gay originally meant happy and ****** originally meant a branch/twig. Todays society has taken those words and changed them to mean homosexual instead. If you were to tell someone that you just meant a branch when you said ****** they would most likely not believe you meant that and instead intended to insult someone or otherwise.
In my opinion the term RPG has been altered to suit the video game industry and in that sense I can consider, WRPG, JRPG and SRPG and the like, to all be considered RPGs but not by the traditonal meaning.
I think that arguing over which games are a 'true' RPGs is pretty pointless as the meaning has changed so that games such as WRPG and JRPG both legitimately (in my mind) fall into the RPG category." And none of which in my opinion would fall under the 'true' pen and paper definition.
"I think the RPG term has changed in meaning. As in from it's transition from its table top origins to video games the meaning has been altered. This is of course why we see WRPG and JRPG SRPG etc. The requirements to be considered an RPG became less restrictive allowing different types of video games to be under the RPG category and technically a sub genre of the RPG.
To me, no video game fits the true definition of what RPG originally stood for back in the pen and paper days and instead fall into the sub genres that were defined when video games came about, WRPG, JRPG, SRPG. etc.
I see this as similar to what words like 'gay' and '******' where gay originally meant happy and ****** originally meant a branch/twig. Todays society has taken those words and changed them to mean homosexual instead. If you were to tell someone that you just meant a branch when you said ****** they would most likely not believe you meant that and instead intended to insult someone or otherwise.
In my opinion the term RPG has been altered to suit the video game industry and in that sense I can consider, WRPG, JRPG and SRPG and the like, to all be considered RPGs but not by the traditonal meaning.
I think that arguing over which games are a 'true' RPGs is pretty pointless as the meaning has changed so that games such as WRPG and JRPG both legitimately (in my mind) fall into the RPG category." And none of which in my opinion would fall under the 'true' pen and paper definition.
To me, an RPG is a game where I can define a character's role to some extent. That is kind of vague, so to continue I want to be able to actively influence particular statistics that determine what kind of character I play as.
A game where you choose what kind of gun you use or what one special ability you have in a PvP FPS? Not an RPG.
A game where you develop skills by using them and become a specialized type of character that is better at certain things than other characters? An RPG.
A game where you choose what kind of gun you use or what one special ability you have in a PvP FPS? Not an RPG.
A game where you develop skills by using them and become a specialized type of character that is better at certain things than other characters? An RPG.
A game in which one plays a role.Merkavar said:
That's pretty much the most accurate way to define an RPG.
Role Playing Game ...
Your view, like many others, is simply a Fantasy RPG. This is what many RPG's tend to be because WoW took over the RPG genre, now most developers are trying to make WoW clones.
I'm sure there are Fantasy RPG games that aren't WoW clones, but Fantasy (Warriors, Mages, Quests etc) is genereally what most RPG's are.
Your view, like many others, is simply a Fantasy RPG. This is what many RPG's tend to be because WoW took over the RPG genre, now most developers are trying to make WoW clones.
I'm sure there are Fantasy RPG games that aren't WoW clones, but Fantasy (Warriors, Mages, Quests etc) is genereally what most RPG's are.
I think, although they started with good ol' swords and monsters, RPG can apply to any game that involes the player putting their personality(or any personality) onto the character. Honestly it doesn't even have to involve leveling.
In game terms, developing your character both physically and through his setting. When a game has "RPG elements" this is interpreted as mostly borrowing parts from the physical. This is why Japanese RPGs still count as such despite the protagonist of the setting has been pre-made for you.
An RPG is a role-playing game. Mass Effect and Fallout are RPGs because you can create a character and play them how you want (you can choose how you want them to fight, and whether you want them to be a beacon of righteousness or a child-smashing sadist).
So an RPG is a game where you can play a role, basically. Not one the game gives you, one you make for yourself. You play the game how you want to.
So an RPG is a game where you can play a role, basically. Not one the game gives you, one you make for yourself. You play the game how you want to.
Damn, you beat me to it. >_>vivalahelvig said:
To me, basically any game that has leveling/customization aspects has RPG elements (including BioShock, STALKER, Fallout 3, etc). As for straight RPG, I guess Final Fantasy, Oblivion, Dragon Age... huh... maybe that's why I like Final Fantasy so much and don't care for other RPG's... FF doesn't do all the elf, goblin, and troll fairy shit like the others do...
A game where the player is free to decide their character's own history and personality, where the player can choose who he/she wants to side with and who they think they should fight for, a game where the player can experience their character gaining knowledge and learning new things and where choices have consequences.
Also OP, your view of RPGs seems weird, Fallout is not a third person shooter, you must have missed the melee weapons and unarmed weapons laying around. You also must have missed the dialogue options that allow you to talk your way out of situations.
To me personally Oblivion felt like a poor RPG. You had no choice in the main quest and there were barely any choices if any at all that affected the world in a major way. Also your character had no personality to develop and you couldn't even create your own history, not to mention being able to join all joinable guilds made no sense.
It just feels like an open action/adventure with RPG elements to me.
Also OP, your view of RPGs seems weird, Fallout is not a third person shooter, you must have missed the melee weapons and unarmed weapons laying around. You also must have missed the dialogue options that allow you to talk your way out of situations.
To me personally Oblivion felt like a poor RPG. You had no choice in the main quest and there were barely any choices if any at all that affected the world in a major way. Also your character had no personality to develop and you couldn't even create your own history, not to mention being able to join all joinable guilds made no sense.
It just feels like an open action/adventure with RPG elements to me.
To me, a game isn't a true RPG if it isn't a 90-hour turn-based grindfest. Of course, I was introduced to RPGs in the mid-90's, when Final Fantasy was more or less synonymous with the very concept of role playing games. Today, most people seem to cast a wider net over the term, but to me, if it's not classic, it just doesn't count.
In the end, an RPG is about freedom. Freedom to choose characters, skills, weapons, good or evil, etc. Particually where you go in the game world. So I consider Fallout 3 and Mass Effect RPGs.
Also, a Rocket Propelled Grenade, an anti-vehicle weapon most gamers are familiar with.
Also, a Rocket Propelled Grenade, an anti-vehicle weapon most gamers are familiar with.
A game that places a great degree of importance on character development through both some kind of numerical system such as level/stats system, as well as literally through conversation choice and plot. The numerical part of an RPG is JUST AS IMPORTANT, if not more important, than the development that comes due to the writing.
I can't stand it when people who have only played Bioware RPGs after KOTOR1 and modern Bethesda RPGs like FO3 and Oblivion think the genre has to do ONLY do to with "roleplaying". It's a loose and poor definition that can end up encapsulating many games that no one in their right mind would consider RPGs (mine isn't perfect, but it is significantly more exclusive than most definitions in this thread). I honestly think people define RPGs like that so they can continue to classify the overly simplified, dumbed down, pieces of garbage pseudo-action games the modern, mainstream RPG genre as such. If you take all the numerical and stats building out of an RPG, you are just left with a crappy action game with okay writing. If you take all the literally and plot elements out of an RPG, then you are just left with a spreadsheet. THEY ARE BOTH IMPORTANT, AND BOTH NEED MENTIONING TO DEVELOP A PROPER DEFINITION OF THE GENRE.
You might be entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion about your opinion
I can't stand it when people who have only played Bioware RPGs after KOTOR1 and modern Bethesda RPGs like FO3 and Oblivion think the genre has to do ONLY do to with "roleplaying". It's a loose and poor definition that can end up encapsulating many games that no one in their right mind would consider RPGs (mine isn't perfect, but it is significantly more exclusive than most definitions in this thread). I honestly think people define RPGs like that so they can continue to classify the overly simplified, dumbed down, pieces of garbage pseudo-action games the modern, mainstream RPG genre as such. If you take all the numerical and stats building out of an RPG, you are just left with a crappy action game with okay writing. If you take all the literally and plot elements out of an RPG, then you are just left with a spreadsheet. THEY ARE BOTH IMPORTANT, AND BOTH NEED MENTIONING TO DEVELOP A PROPER DEFINITION OF THE GENRE.
You might be entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion about your opinion
I don't exactly think RPGs are entirely based around "knights and quests". Look at Mother, it's the first RPG not to be set in medeival times - and it kicks ass.
My "thoughts" on RPGs:
A game where you can create a character, give them a personality, define their skills and talents, and then let 'em loose in a big, endless, immsersive world forcing them to make several choices.
I think an RPG's got to have some sort of freedom aspect.
But I think RPGs today are constantly being spliced in awkward ways. This worked with Fallout and (maybe) Dead Rising. And it doesn't work with Raimbow Six Vegas, CoD, Oblivion, or any other game claiming it's an RPG just because if you kill things you get better at killing things.
And I guess RPGs've got to have a focus on letting players handle things their own way instead of sticking them on a very boring, linear, straight path that completely lacks freedom.
My "thoughts" on RPGs:
A game where you can create a character, give them a personality, define their skills and talents, and then let 'em loose in a big, endless, immsersive world forcing them to make several choices.
I think an RPG's got to have some sort of freedom aspect.
But I think RPGs today are constantly being spliced in awkward ways. This worked with Fallout and (maybe) Dead Rising. And it doesn't work with Raimbow Six Vegas, CoD, Oblivion, or any other game claiming it's an RPG just because if you kill things you get better at killing things.
And I guess RPGs've got to have a focus on letting players handle things their own way instead of sticking them on a very boring, linear, straight path that completely lacks freedom.
As it has been noted several times, Role-Playing Games is a genre which is difficult to define.
Traditionally, this refers to a game's mechanics; specifically that it uses a combat system derived from the Dungeons & Dragons tabletop RPGs. However, this definition is a little too restrictive; the term is role-playing game and not necessarily roll-playing game. It's a bit of a dated definition in my opinion, but still technically a valid one. Another notable aspect of the genre is the tendency for (most of) the games within it to posess a strong and frequently lengthy narrative. This is probably mostly due to the influence of the Final Fantasy series. Both aspects give the genre an air of sophistication around it, which could be why many RPG fans tend to be rather uptight about the state of their genre.
Broader definitions are the concepts of choice, customization, and character progression. All of these allow the player to approach the game in entirely different ways while still being able to complete it. This is a constrast to many other genres where you're limited to a single playstyle (or alternatively, you're required to use all the different playstyles within the game on a single character). However, in recent years we've seen quite a few games which are definitely not RPGs... but still possess these elements (though they are commonly referred to as "RPG elements"). Heck, quite a few non-RPG genres are getting good storylines as well these days; though they are usually shorter than RPGs and very linear.
---
Looks at all of this, the main problem with the definition of RPGs is that it likely shouldn't even be called a genre; the mechanics are applicable to other genres with ease and good storytelling is universal to all forms of entertainment. Everything which defines a role-playing game is actually an omnipresent aspect of gaming in general.
You can call the Final Fantasy series a predominantly linear story-driven adventure which uses D&D-derived mechanics and character progression. Mass Effect is a third-person shooter with several approaches to tackle the game and a good amount of customization & chracter progression, all in a setting with a strong narrative that spans three games and allows for a great deal of choice. The Elder Scrolls series allows you to immerse yourself in a virtual world, and do just about anything you want within it; all the while encouraging you to explore, do the handful of central quests, and advance your character. World of Warcraft allows you to explore a virtual world with a group of allies and defeat all the enemies within it, all the while compelling the player to continually progress their character. All are officially considered RPGs of some variety (though some are contested), but they're so different in terms of how they play (aside from three of the four using D&D-derived mechanics and number-crunching, but even those are done very differently).
In retrospect, "role-playing games" aren't really a genre so much as a nigh-omnipresent set of mechanics and/or elements in all of gaming. Some games use barely any of them, some use a lot (but almost never does it use only RPG elements). It'd be more accurate to call these types of games "story-driven adventures" or "sandboxes" with a high amount of RPG elements.
Traditionally, this refers to a game's mechanics; specifically that it uses a combat system derived from the Dungeons & Dragons tabletop RPGs. However, this definition is a little too restrictive; the term is role-playing game and not necessarily roll-playing game. It's a bit of a dated definition in my opinion, but still technically a valid one. Another notable aspect of the genre is the tendency for (most of) the games within it to posess a strong and frequently lengthy narrative. This is probably mostly due to the influence of the Final Fantasy series. Both aspects give the genre an air of sophistication around it, which could be why many RPG fans tend to be rather uptight about the state of their genre.
Broader definitions are the concepts of choice, customization, and character progression. All of these allow the player to approach the game in entirely different ways while still being able to complete it. This is a constrast to many other genres where you're limited to a single playstyle (or alternatively, you're required to use all the different playstyles within the game on a single character). However, in recent years we've seen quite a few games which are definitely not RPGs... but still possess these elements (though they are commonly referred to as "RPG elements"). Heck, quite a few non-RPG genres are getting good storylines as well these days; though they are usually shorter than RPGs and very linear.
---
Looks at all of this, the main problem with the definition of RPGs is that it likely shouldn't even be called a genre; the mechanics are applicable to other genres with ease and good storytelling is universal to all forms of entertainment. Everything which defines a role-playing game is actually an omnipresent aspect of gaming in general.
You can call the Final Fantasy series a predominantly linear story-driven adventure which uses D&D-derived mechanics and character progression. Mass Effect is a third-person shooter with several approaches to tackle the game and a good amount of customization & chracter progression, all in a setting with a strong narrative that spans three games and allows for a great deal of choice. The Elder Scrolls series allows you to immerse yourself in a virtual world, and do just about anything you want within it; all the while encouraging you to explore, do the handful of central quests, and advance your character. World of Warcraft allows you to explore a virtual world with a group of allies and defeat all the enemies within it, all the while compelling the player to continually progress their character. All are officially considered RPGs of some variety (though some are contested), but they're so different in terms of how they play (aside from three of the four using D&D-derived mechanics and number-crunching, but even those are done very differently).
In retrospect, "role-playing games" aren't really a genre so much as a nigh-omnipresent set of mechanics and/or elements in all of gaming. Some games use barely any of them, some use a lot (but almost never does it use only RPG elements). It'd be more accurate to call these types of games "story-driven adventures" or "sandboxes" with a high amount of RPG elements.
Is Zelda a "light-RPG" or an "Action-adventure with RPG elements"Merkavar said:
Analysis of the name doesn't help as almost all games you "Role Play".
Frankly I find the label almost useless. The only labels that are of any use are the purely functional ones like FPS or Turn Based Strategy.
I suppose the question of "how RPG is it" means how much does your character grow and develop in their capabilities like stats, items, equipment, arsenal, etc.
I'd say a military shooter like Call of Duty is least RPG as your weapons/equipment reset after every mission and even throughout a mission you cannot collect more weapons without giving up one due to the 2-weapon limit.