I would like to point to the German healthcare system which not only proved to be quite better funded than the NHS but which still has private options... which are slowly driven out of the market because the boundary condition are intentionally set to make the public option affordable and able to cover all necessary stuff. Of course having some kind of health insurance with a broad coverage is mandatory in Germany except for some foreign short term visitors.
Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts
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They might deserve that, but does the US (and the world) deserve the GOP until the Democrats improve (if ever)?
Plus it isn't really them that lose in all this at all, it's every single person below the poverty line, anyone already marginalised for factors out of their control. A political part is not a naughty child, it is a vicious machine that will continue perfectly fine after defeat. The real problems from defeat are always but always transferred onto those in society who do not have the means to protect themselves from it. Using family/house analogies for portraying complex political machines are inherently flawed and seemingly always favour right-wing uber-capitalist outcomes.
I mean, it absolutely does suck but this issue is pretty much the exact split between The Progressives and the VBNMW (Vote Blue No Matter Who if somehow you've never seen that before; people who planned on voting Democrat no matter who was put up for nomination).
Progressives who are bailing on Biden believe that Biden winning will be painful in the short term but ultimately will be beneficial for everyone in the long term. Basically a clear and damning signal to The DNC that we've taken your "vote for the less of evil!" shtick for the last time so either you guys make some actual changes or we're going to let you burn to the ground. Trump getting four more years is going to hurt like hell but it's the "cut off your arm to save your life" kind of situation.
It absolutely does suck that The DNC has essentially shoved Progressives aside into the corner for so long that it comes down to this but Progressives don't think they have any other choice at this point. I doubt there's many Progressives who would actively want Trump to win (although there does seem to be at least a small sliver of Progressives who do think that it will take Trump essentially burning democracy to the ground so that we can rise up from the ashes so I can't say no progressives want it) but feel so betrayed by The DNC at this point that they can't or won't take yet another round of the DNC kicking them around and then being expected to fall back in line and vote for them.
Edit: Forgot the M in my VBNMW thing, not sure how I managed that but I noticed the typo in Eacaraxe's response to me
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Those stupid health insurance companies...
Edit: Just saw it on Secular Talk.
Screw this, I am out, I was thinking about even donating to Biden's Campagin, but not I am not even going to vote. Let Biden have his suburban wine moms and greedy business republicans. As for the rest of the world if Biden loses, and Trump bombs your country, well at least most of you have good healthcare, cause I sure as heck won't with my likely employment healthcare that doesn't cover everything, takes money from my paycheck.
Edit: Just saw it on Secular Talk.
Screw this, I am out, I was thinking about even donating to Biden's Campagin, but not I am not even going to vote. Let Biden have his suburban wine moms and greedy business republicans. As for the rest of the world if Biden loses, and Trump bombs your country, well at least most of you have good healthcare, cause I sure as heck won't with my likely employment healthcare that doesn't cover everything, takes money from my paycheck.
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Eh, "VBNMW" was always a preparatory phase for progressive vote-shaming, being it was always directed squarely at progressives and Bernie supporters, and not once towards conservative Democrats and other groups that made up the 2008 PUMA movement. Notice that shit stopped dead in its tracks for the month Bernie led in the primaries, replaced by vague threats "moderates" wouldn't vote for Bernie in November.
They're deluding themselves into thinking that threat will work this time, unlike every election since Hubert Humphrey. Same shit establishment/corporate/conservative Dems do, repeat the tactics of the past and expect different results.
Frankly, I'm one of them. I saw the eight years of normalizing and expanding upon everything Bush did, under Obama. All my life I've seen the rightward mission creep of the party, starting with the Reagan Democrats and leading us here. I've seen Biden's Senate record and understand the implications of it in how we got where we are. People can ***** about the Trump administration and the unitary executive toolkit at his disposal, but Biden was a key architect of both being his policies were what put the country in such dire straits to elect the bastard to begin with and the arsenal at his disposal.
The reality of the Biden campaign, is it doesn't offer the drastic changes in discourse and policy needed to solve for any of the problems the country faces that can still be solved, doesn't offer solutions to mitigate the harm of what can be mitigated, and doesn't offer any path forward on the problems that are no longer surmountable. Like Obama before him, the most realistic potential outcome is a full normalization of everything Trump did, by way of a complicit and largely silent press, allowing the country's marginally-privileged to continue denying the country isn't already a kleptocracy in the grips of a second Gilded Age.
A second Trump administration at least keeps the country's dirty laundry out in the open.
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It doesn't matter who wins, everyone loses
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...did you just tell a forum member they should kill themselves for daring to...not vote for the guy you want to win in an election?
Is that what we're coming to here?
Germany is the exception for many reasons in regards to many issues. US politics and economics aren’t run by weird German perverts, they’re run by absolute bastards like the Koch’s and the Sadler’s. Our experience will more likely parallel parts of the Anglosphere or the Americas than Germany.
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No, I'm saying if all the progressives kill ourselves then the right will have no option but to become more progressive. Its an ingenious plan that is equal to the level of discourse in this thread.
The "Life Of Brian" tactic to winning power. Always a joy to see.
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You're right, that plan doesn't make sense. It's a good thing that's not The Progressives plan with letting The DNC fail.
Progressives don't expect The Right to move Left. What Progressives are hoping is that either The DNC itself moves Left once it realizes that constantly going after Moderate Republicans is never going to work (a lesson we were hoping they'd learn in 2016 but maybe they just need to get their teeth kicked in by a loser like Trump again to get the lesson to actually stick). Alternatively, this embarrassing loss ultimately burns The DNC to the ground, which opens up room for a new party to take their place. A party that isn't The Republicans but with a Gay Pride flag.
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But that's, flat out, not going to actually happen.
I can respect the position of people who won't vote for the Democrats because they feel betrayed by them, or have a moral objection to voting for someone like Biden or whatever. I very strongly disagree with then, but I sympathise with the position they are in.
People hoping that the GOP gets to ruin the US (including, you know, the ability of its citizens to choose their leaders) until a miracle happens and they get a viable party that reflects all their beliefs are off with the fairies. And while I sympathise with people in the position of having to pick a greater or lesser disaster, picking the greater one and hoping for a miracle is just making things worse.
OK, then tell me what you expect Progressives to do? Progressive policies are being left out completely by both sides. Biden and The DNC have made it clear that they are Center (if we're being charitable) when it comes to policy. They didn't go nowhere near far enough with their Health Care compromise and they're already rolling back that tiny bone that they threw in for Progressives to have. I and many other Progressives 100% believe at this point that not only are the DNC inept, they are actively corrupt and exist as token resistance to what Republicans want (the image right above your post from Dirty Hipsters sums it up well). We've been told for the last twenty years that "This year we HAVE to vote for the lesser of two evils but don't worry, NEXT year we'll focus on making actual change!!!!" so that "promise" is proven as absolute horseshit by The DNC.
As I stated in my post above and other places, Progressives firmly believe that Biden is just as much their enemy as Trump is (hell, some believe Biden is MORE of an enemy than Trump because at least with Trump, he's too stupid to hide all the dirty laundry and corruption going on where if Biden goes back in, everybody just goes back to brunch and sweeps all the shit under the rug again) so telling us to VBNMW and just reward The DNC once again for pissing on our heads and telling us that The Republicans need to stop making it rain is not an option.
All of that is true. But you are still left with a lesser evil or a greater one, and that's the only choice you're ever going to get. The Democrats aren't going to improve if the GOP wins. There isn't going to be a viable third party. There's no good option, and US voters won't get a good option for at least a generation.
(Assuming that elections still matter and the amount of cheating doesn't make this academic, that is)
and this is the attitude for WHY there will never be another good option. We're done with the "Lesser of Two Evils" and we're going to try to build a new party instead since the DNC has made it crystal clear that we're not welcome. The VBNMW people can keep rewarding The DNC for their bullshit and accepting the crumbs that fall off their plate but we're not. If watching millions of Americans lose their jobs (and therefore their Health Care) in the middle of a pandemic wasn't enough to get the DNC to move Left, nothing ever will. So Fuck'em.
Will this ultimately work? Who knows. But we're done accepting their crumbs and we're going to at least try to push for some actual, meaningful change. Because the alternative is "nothing will fundamentally change" anyway.