Do you want Left, or do you want Progressive? There's room for progressive ideas in the Republican Party if you're interested, it is sort of the birthplace of American Progressivism.
Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts
- Thread starter Eacaraxe
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Hey, I've said from the beginning that fixing our absolutely shit-tastic Health Care System is my #1 with a bullet desire for the election. I'd accept Biden being a clown on all the other policies if he were to adopt M4A (or something of similar setup where I can go to the Doctor without having to be afraid of becoming Bankrupt for it).
If you can somehow get Trump and the other Republicans on board with that, I'd at least give it a listen (although the nice thing with Trump is that I know I can say this and have no possibility of ever having to vote Trump because Republicans see the $$$$ as the ultimate prize and Progressive policies cost money).
USA
I am not sure yet, I am still having complications. It still looks like I will likely need another operation.
Rewarding the party that is making everything worse because the other party didn't do enough only results in everything getting much worse than it ever would have been and it never getting better within our lifetimes. "Punishing" the party that that is better than the other instead of the worst party, only makes it take longer for anything to get better and causes deaths that could have been prevented. It is delusional to think that punishing the party for not doing enough will ever result in them doing more. It doesn't work like that, never has worked like and never will. That entire line of thought was invented just as a means to to split votes to ensure the opposition party to retain power. That is all it is, has been and ever will be. It will never actually result in improvements. The end goal of this political strategy isn't to ever allow anything to be improved, it is to ensure it never will be by 1) Divide the progressives and the moderates by unwillingness to compromise 2) When the progressives self sabotage their only chance to ever do anything repeatedly, they become disenfranchised and eventually give up entirely. 3) Conservatives consolidate their power and control everything indefinitely.
That is the end game that is playing out as we speak if people are ignorant enough to allow it to happen. That is the only result we can expect as long as progressives do not have enough votes to change anything outright. It isn't like the moderates of conservatives are going to be the ones willing to change, ever. Reality just does not work like that.
LMAO! That is some funny stuff right there. The current republican party is not "progressive" in any way, unless you think progressive means to " progressively force the poor to die out quietly while they build walls to keep them out sight". Their end goal is for healthcare to go to the highest bidder, to prevent the poor from being in the same hospitals and doctors offices as they are by removing their access entirely and not just healthcare either, the republicans are actively working to remove the ability for the lower and lower middle class to survive at all. Why do you think homelessness has been increasing as much as it has over the last 4 years? The unemployment relief package is being held up right now because Lindsey Graham's coalition is refusing to support the $600 boost to unemployment payments because they literally want to be able to force the people to work for in life threatening unsafe environments for less than a living wage and Trump's BS $400 executive order nonsense is only being done in 7 states. The vast majority of unemployed will never see a cent of it. All the republicans want to do for the poor is break their backs and force them into dire desperation so they can exploit them for personal gain. That is it. By rewarding the party that is actively trying to kill off the poor, that is all you accomplish in the end. Punishing a party because they didn't do enough and rewarding the party that is actively trying to inflict extreme harm only results in nothing ever being done to resolve anything in our lifetimes.
That sucks. I hope everything goes well for you and that you have a good and trustworthy doctor doing the operation.
It's not that they aren't doing enough. It is that they are just as committed to serving the oligarchy. I'm interested in a peasant rebellion, not which branch of the House Plantagenet takes the next crown.
Which is why I'm also not voting for Republicans. But ORANGE MAN BAD isn't enough for me anymore so I'm also not going to vote for Democrats either unless they actually give us something worth voting for.
In the US, every single time we have tried to build up a 3rd party, all it results in is solidifying the right's power and destroying the left. That is why we only have the option for a 2 party system in the US. It takes all other parties banding together in the US just to keep the far right out of power here. It isn't like they have not tried to do this repeatedly throughout our history, they have over over and over again and in the current environment it will always fail. The right has entirely too much power in the US for that to change any time soon. Unlike democracies where the candidate with the most votes win, the US has had candidates lose repeatedly who had the most votes due to not all votes being equal. The right wing strongholds hold much more power per vote than anyone else and no one can win without flipping some of them. Every time you allow the GOP to come to power by dividing the opposition, they use their position to ensure they will always retain control in the end through gerrymandering, passing laws to make it near impossible for the left to pass legislation to make changes and appoint judges to rule against anything the left does manage to pass rending all the work progressives previously did null. The only option we currently have to push left is to remove the right's power entirely first. Yes, a dems vs green in our near future is a Fairy tale, what is far more likely due to the constant successful division of GOP opposition is that the GOP will retain power until progressives are finally willing to do what it takes to stop them. As it is, I am not seeing that progressives actually understand what it takes to get anything done, so they keep setting themselves up to fail. Mind you, I am a progressive as well, this is just what I am seeing from other progressives because they do not seem to understand the chain of events that will necessarily occur as a direct result of their current actions. Allowing the GOP to retain power in this election will result in not being able to implement progressive polices at all within our lifetime due to having to replace judges and laws at all levels in order to do so without some sort of civil war or complete upheaval of our current political system, which would still not result in positive changes within our lifetimes as it is far more likely it would just lead to generations of instability and extreme poverty instead.
We do not have any options to destroy the oligarchy, that is why we just try to do the best we can with what we have. All that a rebellion would result in with the current powers that be is lost generations of extreme desperation and poverty , not actual improvements. In addition, due to the current unbalance of power, the far right would likely crush the factions due to their opposition all being so divided, and those already struggling will just not survive at all. The wealthy will be fine, they can afford to survive. The middle and lower class will not.
That is just it though. Dem's ARE giving us something. Like was pointed out earlier, the US going the route of Germany's system for now is still a massive improvement over what we have. The route of the ACA is taking the same route that Germany has to achieve universal healthcare. M4A is not the only way to do so and there are plenty of the same problems with M4A that we have in other systems as well. Currently, you can still go bankrupt with medicare. Medicare still has lifetime benefits caps. Medicare still has monthly payment requirements and much it does not cover. My disabled uncle lost his home due to the state collecting for medicare for his mother. My mother still received over $100,000 in medical bills she never paid for my father even though he had medicare. Your credit can still be destroyed even while having medicare. We have plenty of routes to take to obtain healthcare for all without leaving people destitute, it is just a matter of getting there. It is actually easier to get from point A to point B by modifying the ACA right now than it is to implement M4A at this time. We gained ground with the ACA, now we need to take more to get the results we want. People have to understand how this works and the steps we need to get where want to be rather than just be focused on " my way or the highway" and be willing to lose it all due to not doing it the way they want.
The truth is here, if all parties do not join together to defeat the GOP, the GOP will always win. It keeps happening over and over and over again. That is how it works every single time. If the GOP wins this time though, many people will lose their current healthcare access and will die, many more will become homeless, many more will become destitute. While I do not see the Dem's solving all of those things entirely, they at least try to do something about it and reduce it. The dems right now are our only chance for unemployment help, higher wages, increased ability to receive medical treatment.. they are far from ideal, but are certainly better than what will happen if they lose.
EDIT: In addition it doesn't actually harm the moderates for the democrats to lose, they are usually wealthy or upper middle class and will survive win or lose, it only harms the progressives and the poor. Punishing the poor doesn't change anything in the end, they just continue to suffer and die. Often it just results in them not surviving the wait at all.
Thanks. My surgeon is excellent and at the top of his field. The problem is my immune system's response. When you have a suppressed immune system, it is much more difficult to heal and makes you susceptible to infections you otherwise would not be.
You do realize that Medicare and M4A are two different things, right? I kind of feel like Bernie calling his proposal Medicare for All was a big mistake because people just assume that it's just the current Medicare system but everyone would get it:
Bernie Sanders Official Website
Change will never come without political participation. Join the political revolution today.
berniesanders.com
The important parts (just copy/pasted the KEY POINTS):
- Create a Medicare for All, single-payer, national health insurance program to provide everyone in America with comprehensive health care coverage, free at the point of service.
- No networks, no premiums, no deductibles, no copays, no surprise bills.
- Medicare coverage will be expanded and improved to include: include dental, hearing, vision, and home- and community-based long-term care, in-patient and out-patient services, mental health and substance abuse treatment, reproductive and maternity care, prescription drugs, and more.
- Stop the pharmaceutical industry from ripping off the American people by making sure that no one in America pays over $200 a year for the medicine they need by capping what Americans pay for prescription drugs under Medicare for All.
The Democrats offers us crumbs and holds an axe over our head in the form of Republicans. We can either finally tell them to Fuck Off after decades of the same threats and demand they offer us real change for once or we can meekly keep accepting their crumbs and hope that maybe some day we'll get a Democrat who is willing to actually fight against being in the pockets of Lobbyists.
Ultimately it's your call, as my vote is my call. I absolutely sympathize with anyone stuck making this choice and 100% understand why you'd still want to vote Democrat even after they have clearly demonstrated that they don't give two shits about us and only implement good things for us as long as it doesn't ruffle the feathers of their Corporate Masters too much. If Trump gets another four years in office, it's going to hurt and it's going to hurt a lot (and yes, to be completely judgmental against myself, I'm likely not going to be the one taking this hit as a lower middle class white dude). But I can't in good conscious keep letting The Democrats fuck us all over just because they fuck us slightly less hard than The Republicans do.
This, this right here. If anyone wants to know why we don't trust the Democrat party out of hand it's because they were given complete control to write their healthcare bill in Obama's first term and the ACA is what came out of it. Not a single Republican had to be consulted or even thought of, save for the Republicans with a D next to their names.
I fully understand the details of M4A, and Bernie called it that for a reason, it was not a mistake, there is a reason for it. The reason he didn't want to talk about how it was paid for and Warren actually came up with a better means to pay for it is that it would still result in a number of issues that have not been resolved, however both of their options still greatly underestimated the funding that would be necessary to maintain quality of care while simultaneously increasing services.
I think you are overlooking the loopholes in the ACA that the poor are currently using to obtain actual treatment while not paying their monthly premiums or their deductibles. In states where they expanded the ACA Medicaid, they can go straight through medicaid to receive their care. In other states, like Texas however, they are still able to have insurance, receive treatment and not pay much out of pocket. Here is how:
1)They apply for Blue cross Blue shield on the healthcare exchange, due to their low income, they qualify for the subsidies.
2) They differ their monthly payments to their taxes. This means they do not pay anything, it is supposed to be taken out of their tax return at the end of the year but due to their low income, they do not take it out at all.
3) Visits to their Primary care doctor for regular care, usually only paying a $25 copay.
4)Paying low co pays for medication at the pharmacy usually between $5-$25 for most medications that would be hundreds of dollars otherwise.
Yes, they are currently billed for large hospital copays and deductibles, but that is why we need to expand the ACA to resolve that as well. It is however providing millions of people who have no other options right now access when they could not afford to get help at all without it. If the GOP states that rejected the medicaid expansion finally accept it, they could go through that rather than be forced to use the loophole. If they get the medicaid expansion, they would not be billed at all.
The reality we have right now is that we do not have enough votes in congress for M4A. How would it be better to make it worse rather than take the smaller improvements in the meantime because we can actually get those passed? Democrats having a supermajority =\= progressives having a supermajority. We simply do not have enough progressives in congress to make that happen. Our only way I see to ever get enough progressives to have a supermajority is for progressives to physically move to conservative districts and outnumber them to change who wins. They are not willing to do that, so in the meantime we have to work with what we have. That means trying to keep as many people alive in the process until we finally get to where we want to be.
Punishing the only party that has progressives in it at all does not suddenly result in having enough progressives to have a supermajority, it just makes sure the progressives we do have will not be able to help at all. The only people you help by not voting for the only party who has progressives at all in it is the far right, it doesn't help the few progressives we have in congress, it just makes sure they will never be able to get anything done at all and the right will just make everything worse in the process. Being willing to take the axe ( republicans ) to hurt yourself is one thing, but what it does in reality is it is putting all of the poor on the guillotine with you when you do it. I have worked with people every day who literally will not survive even a few months under GOP's current policy plans, some of them will not even survive a day without their medication. They will quite literally die if the GOP current plan goes through and they have no other options than the ACA right now. When my vote = their deaths, I no longer view it as " it's my call, or your call..." At that point is now: " IF I allow these polices to take affect, I am directly responsible for their deaths because I did not do everything within my capability to stop it from happening" and so is everyone else who allowed this to happen. So yes, I do feel that you, or I or anyone else who allows the GOP to retain power right now by either not voting, voting 3rd party or vote for GOP is directly causing their deaths.
Show me the plan to keep these people alive when the GOP win and then we can consider another plan here. That plan doesn't exist so until that happens, we do not have that luxury. Are you going to personally pay out of pocket to keep the millions of people alive while we wait out the boycott? If not, then I have to consider that they want to live, not die, and I am going to do everything within my power to ensure they do as well as do everything within my power to make sure everyone else I speak to does as well. I do not accept" I'ts your call" when it comes to others lives, and yea, we should accept being directly responsible for their deaths if we know this is what will happen and choose to allow it to happen regardless.
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I mean, you can blame me all you want but there's only one group who you should be pointing the finger at and that's The DNC for tossing our group aside because they'd rather go after Republicans who are pissy at Trump than to fight for legislation that will actually help people. I will not allow The Democrats to hold me hostage anymore with their "Vote for us or you're electing Trump" bullshit line. If they manage to fuck up what should have been the easiest lay-up in Political History having to face Trump a second time, that's on them.
Good luck to The DNC, I have a feeling they're going to need it...
How many democrats are progressives? How many republicans are progressive? .. Oh yea there are NO republicans that are progressive. We do not have a party that can obtain a majority that is entirely progressive. It doesn't exist. Why would remove the ONLY chance the few progressives we have in congress have to be able to do anything at all instead of try to help them get something done in the short time they are there? Since the progressives do not have a majority on their own, they have to bribe others to work with them to do anything at all, otherwise, we get nothing done, ever.
Is this your logic here?:
1 Democrats have conservatives, moderates and progressives.
2. Republicans have conservatives and far right
3. Democrats are not progressive enough so reward republicans and make sure the few progressives we have get nothing done ever!!
My logic is this:
1)Progressives do not have a majority in congress so the only way for them to get anything done is to bride others to join them to get what they can done in the short time they are there.
2) Recruit non progressives to be able to gain a majority by any means possible.
3) Focus on the most immediate and dire situations first and make whatever bribes are necessary to help those situations first, even if that means giving out some corporate bribes in the process . At least we will give those people the ability to live to fight another day.
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I am actually pointing it at my fellow progressives. That is where the blame lies here. The progressives do not have a majority, the conservatives do. So without recruiting some of those to our side, we will never get anything done. The biggest obstacle blocking us from getting anything done is my fellow progressives right now. I support Bernie. I support Warren. That is why I am trying to help them. It is those that are ignoring what Bernie and Warren are asking us to do to help them that are the biggest problem here. When people are not even willing to listen to what the people doing everything they can to help them are telling them, they are the problem, not the solution.
You help Bernie and yourself by actually listening to what he is asking you to do, not tying his hands.
Yea, that was very well thought out right there.
Is this your logic here?:
1 Democrats have conservatives, moderates and progressives.
2. Republicans have conservatives and far right
3. Democrats are not progressive enough so reward republicans and make sure the few progressives we have get nothing done ever!!
My logic is this:
1)Progressives do not have a majority in congress so the only way for them to get anything done is to bribe others to join them to get what they can done in the short time they are there.
2) Recruit non progressives to be able to gain a majority by any means possible.
3) Focus on the most immediate and dire situations first and make whatever bribes are necessary to help those situations first, even if that means giving out some corporate bribes in the process . At least we will give those people the ability to live to fight another day.
What exactly is wrong here? That is the end result regardless of what you may think you are doing either way. Basically if Republicans get the majority this time, Sanders may be leave congress without being able to get anything done at all. If people actually did what Bernie asked, we would at least give him a chance to do something rather than take away any chance of him being able to do anything at all. If people genuinely support Bernie, they would listen to what he is telling them he needs them to do right now. He hasn't given up trying to make things better for you, why make it harder for him to do so?
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Trump has a real actual neo-nazi helping him make policies (Steve Mnuchin).
Trump has said suburban housewives will vote for him because he stopped the poor trash from moving into their neighbourhoods, basically praising segregation.
Dismissing this as people saying 'orange man bad' in order to get you to vote him out is asinine.
Him remaining in power is literally the death of any vestige of hope in America ever redeeming itself.
Trump has said suburban housewives will vote for him because he stopped the poor trash from moving into their neighbourhoods, basically praising segregation.
Dismissing this as people saying 'orange man bad' in order to get you to vote him out is asinine.
Him remaining in power is literally the death of any vestige of hope in America ever redeeming itself.