Deus Ex Designer: "The Ultra-Violence Has To Stop"

[Naeras]

and you're missing my point that violence is violence.

I'm not "missing your point", I'm disagreeing with it.

the scale of that violence is just a subjective argument in semantics. at what point does violence become "hyper-violence"?

A hyper violent game is a game where the violence is the main focus of the game, rather than just a part of it, and the gratification of killing dudes and inflicting pain is the primary thing the game has going for it.

where's the line? 40 Bullets fired is okay, but 41, whoa, slow down there Manson!

Read my last paragraph.

running around beating hookers with a baseball bat in GTA is too much, but replace the bat with an oversized key and the hookers with shadow things, and that's acceptable?

Wait, you're seriously arguing that context is irrelevant?

there is no invisible line to define the difference between the perceived "hyper-violence" and what you seem to argue is "acceptable violence". violence is just violence.

Where did anyone say the line was invisible? It's VERY visible.

and as for the "power-trip" perception, people need to quit projecting. currently, i'm playing fallout: new vegas. in that game, you can stop the game, aim at a specific body part and watch it explode in slow motion. and i've never once felt the rush of a "power trip fantasy" from it. that game is about survival in a post-apocolyptic wasteland, that's the fantasy i get from it.

Yep, that's my point. The focus of the game isn't on the violence itself, although the violence is definitely a part of it. Yeah, it's a violent game. No, it's not hyper-violent.

and it bears mentioning that the game, and indeed the precision aiming system for explody-head come from a game that is 15 years old. whatever he's perceiving as a current problem with our culture is something that has always existed.

Oh, here's the old "yeah, it's always existed so it's not a problem"-strawman. Just because it's always been like this doesn't mean it's not a problem.

one could argue that the power pellets in pac man infuse people with a power trip...

And anyone who does that has probably eaten one too many "power pellets" themselves.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Violence and gore is never really a selling point for me in a video game. Sometimes the absence of it can take me out of things a little bit though. If a scene is supposed to be gruesome but its not, it is a little hard to get into it.
Of course, I think he might be out of luck because I believe most gamers are immature misanthropic crazies that ARE into all that stuff. At least the vocal part that never seems to shut up.

 

[Fumbles]

Comics died as an industry when they decided kids weren't worth catering to. Not a happy comparison at all.

Comics hasn't died... They are in fact, actually rebounded, thanks largely to those "Adult" titles. Image is making a killing right now, with Saga, Moirning Glories, etc. The fact that ignorant comments such as yours still exists amazes me.

 

[Wicky_42]

I KIND OF get it, but it's not like other industries are any better.

Music has it's 'cop killer' or 'in the name of the king'
Movies have its 'saw' and 'the expendables'
Books have its 'american psycho' and 'twilight'
Comics has its 'punisher' and 'the walking dead'
Tv has its...


The list goes on and on and on.
We're predators, we LIKE violence, it's part of our dna.

As I think others have said too, where as Clockwork Orange, say, or Saving Private Ryan is still pretty shocking in its level of violence and portrayal of suffering, and are known because of that, the vast majority of top selling games have a level of violence that casually exceed these 'shocking' limits. It's a bit strange that one can happily blow through a small army in BF or COD or Halo and not think twice; this might be because the violence in these games is dissociated from context and reality, and the only way developers see to make an impact is to make the explosions bigger and the gore messier. This just turns slaughter into a spectacle, and there's a case to be made that desensitising people to mass slaughter could have a lasting effect on people's attitudes to conflicts in real life..

There's a reasonable argument to be made to encourage publishers to drive for more context and weight to the actions you make in shooters. There was a suggestion a while back about encouraging devs to honour the Geneva Convention in war shooters, and things like that could actually make a subtle difference; people's instinctive behaviour can be adjusted by games, and if you learn to, say, accept enemy soldiers' surrender and are rewarded for it by the game mechanics then it could perhaps be a step on the road to making gaming more than a meaning-less pass-time and potentially a more complex commentary on reality.

That tangent aside, one thing that could be done to make death carry more weight in a game is to have less of it. Compare the 6 or so deaths in the film Drive to the slaughter in a Jason Statham or John Woo film; each of the kills in Drive had weight, to the point of actually stirring feelings in me that I never thought a film could bring up. Each death carried weight and consequences, affected characters and the audience profoundly, and stood out against the rest of the film's backdrop through dramatic contrast and strong pacing.

John Woo crafts some very impressive fight scene choreography, but there's little there bar the excitement. The death of nameless mook #56 matters not to anyone; it's no surprise that the horde of people wearing white boiler suits that endlessly steam in get instantly killed. The heroes don't really break much of a sweat over them, though they might take a dramatic flesh wound if the scene needs more tension. Not even their employers give a shit - analogous to how the majority of video games work.

I'm not going to say that each and every shooter needs more Drive and less John Woo, but it would make the genre much more interesting to have a few more mature 'mature' games in the mix.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

I was actually pleasantly surprised when i was able to make it pretty far into Prince of persia: sands of time without engaging in combat despite the obvious choice to

Which brings to mind how i decided to kill everyone in my last playthrough of Stalker but then forgot about it for some reason after some hour

 

[velcrokidneyz]

I may be desensitized to video game violence but when it comes to the real thing, it makes me uncomfortable. A good example was the picture of the guy who got his face eaten off. Saw that pic and lunch was over with for me.

 

[Something Amyss]

But then, this isn't just a gaming issue. And as long as game publishers are on this " Hollywood" kick, we're going to see torture porn.

That comment would be a whole lot more legitimate if the majority of Hollywood blockbusters were rater R, except they aren't, so it isn't. It's more that gaming as an industry is insecure and thinks that more guns and violence will make it seem more grown up.

Note that ""Hollywood" was "in quotes."

It doesn't matter what Hollywood does, it matters what game companies think they're doing.

I'm sorry you missed that, but it's a very legitimate comment.

 

[Waaghpowa]

It's interesting that the violence in Deus Ex was meant to feel uncomfortable, because I definitely tried to avoid killing enemies in that game more than I usually do. It's a combination of humanization and alternate options, I think.

I for one avoided killing enemies because it was harder to do so than in other games. Or at least it was with guns.

 

[Woodsey]

no ultra - violence in deus ex whatsoever...

*slap*

He made the original Deus Ex, not Human Revolution. And whilst HR features that, it doesn't glorify it particularly - it's not designed to make you whoop and cheer, it's just a reflection on the character you're playing as and the choices you're making.

The game is neutral on the subject. The original does it a little better by having more characters comment on your actions with various opinions, but they're the same, in that respect.

 

[Kahunaburger]

It's interesting that the violence in Deus Ex was meant to feel uncomfortable, because I definitely tried to avoid killing enemies in that game more than I usually do. It's a combination of humanization and alternate options, I think.

I for one avoided killing enemies because it was harder to do so than in other games. Or at least it was with guns.

Haha, that too. GEP gun ammo is too precious to waste on a dude you can just whack in the back of the head.

 

[Smokescreen]

He was doing OK until he decided to play the 'righteousness' card.

"I'm just glad I work for a company like Disney, where not only is that not something that's encouraged, you can't even do it, and I'm fine with it."

Because now he comes across like a complete douchbag. Disney is a corporation and one that will do whatever it takes to make money. They started Touchstone picture so they could make movies that would be an anathema to the Disney brand.

They own Marvel and a host of TV and radio stations that, in addition to appealing to children, do not shy away from appealing to other demographics.

It's not even that I disagree with him: there are SO MANY possible mechanics for games, and violence is, with today's technology, really the easiest way out. It's possible to do some amazing games using different kinds of gameplay.

But games are, at some point, about some kind of conflict. There is no game without it. If you want to find interesting ways to illustrate that conflict, great. Go to town and encourage others to do the same.

But don't try and tell US that YOU are somehow better because 'you work for Disney'.

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

*slap*

He made the original Deus Ex, not Human Revolution. And whilst HR features that, it doesn't glorify it particularly - it's not designed to make you whoop and cheer, it's just a reflection on the character you're playing as and the choices you're making.

The game is neutral on the subject. The original does it a little better by having more characters comment on your actions with various opinions, but they're the same, in that respect.

I´m reasonably sure that the first Deus Ex did not feature slow-motion, dual-blade kill cams with more blood than a human being should be able to spurt in such a situaion, including over-the-top foley effects.

I guess I´m not necessarily arguing that HR is glorifying violenc to a huge extent per sp, but it is definitly more violent in more and spectacular ways than the original. And the two games are, in as brutal as they can get at their most brutal, very much not the same.

So I suppose HR is maybe glorifying violence a bit, but admittedly only if the player wants it to be so. Still, that is a difference.

 

[SoDaRa]

I like Chibi-Robo because it isn't about violence, its all about helping people and making them happy. The conflict of the game rarely centers around violence, and the amount included in the game is almost made to be saddening, heck the game even kind of says its not the minions' fault for attacking you, they were made to help Chibi-Robos, but were manipulated to attack them. The only reason to kill them is to get bolts, and even then you don't need that many.

 

[uttaku]

but my fellow druges who doesnt love a bit of the old ultra violence?

OT: I have to agree, games idea of mature is just more adolesent OTT violence

 

[Woodsey]

*slap*

He made the original Deus Ex, not Human Revolution. And whilst HR features that, it doesn't glorify it particularly - it's not designed to make you whoop and cheer, it's just a reflection on the character you're playing as and the choices you're making.

The game is neutral on the subject. The original does it a little better by having more characters comment on your actions with various opinions, but they're the same, in that respect.

I´m reasonably sure that the first Deus Ex did not feature slow-motion, dual-blade kill cams with more blood than a human being should be able to spurt in such a situaion, including over-the-top foley effects.

I guess I´m not necessarily arguing that HR is glorifying violenc to a huge extent per sp, but it is definitly more violent in more and spectacular ways than the original. And the two games are, in as brutal as they can get at their most brutal, very much not the same.

So I suppose HR is maybe glorifying violence a bit, but admittedly only if the player wants it to be so. Still, that is a difference.

There's no slow-mo, and there ain't that much blood. And personally, the killcams have always been more "Oh, fuck...", not "FUCK YEAH!". And I distinctly remember using a mine in my last playthrough of DX to blow someone up into a couple of dozen pieces. (In my defence, Ms Navarre, you were being a twat.)

Point is, all they're really showing is your actions. You want to be violent? Then you get a violent outcome. They don't really linger over the fact, they don't encourage it, but they show you what you've done.

Now, I don't actually think there's much of a problem with the games we're playing in terms of violence, I do think there's a developing problem with how violence is used to advertise at us like we're a bunch of dipshits who'll get hard over people being fucked up out-of-context.

(Like the crowds at E3.)

 

[Mike Fang]

I can't say I approve of things like censorship, coddling or babying people about harsh realities, but I think there is something to be said about the excesses of violence in some games. For there to be blood and grievous bodily harm from combat in a game (Such as the latest Fallout games) isn't a problem. But when you look at games that practically roll around in it gleefully (like Splatterhouse or Mortal Kombat) it create a sense of unease at what the designers are expecting us to applaud. Hitman I have a bit more of a hard time criticizing if some of the ways you kill your targets are unpleasant; it doesn't come across as quite so needlessly gory and malevolent; you're often trying to take out a target to make it look like an accident. Doing something like, say, kicking a jack out from under a car so it falls on their head isn't going to be pretty, but it's going to keep suspicion off of you.

All that said, I can see the need for there to be fewer games that rewards excessive, needless brutality. We could definitely do with a few more Bioshocks, Half-Lifes, and Fallouts and a few less Manunts, Splatterhouses, Mortal Kombats and Madworlds.

 

[RagTagBand]

lol Nope.

If he thought that Hitman's violence was "Too much" then he's clearly a fucking dinosaur to begin with, aping the oft heard "This new generation is too extreme" blatherings of someone who wishes to trap everyone else in the past.

Ultra violence has just as much a place on the planet as your shitty Epic Mickey games, Warren.