Deus Ex Designer: "The Ultra-Violence Has To Stop"

Snowblindblitz

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Revnak said:
Fumbles said:
Revnak said:
Comics died as an industry when they decided kids weren't worth catering to. Not a happy comparison at all.
Comics hasn't died... They are in fact, actually rebounded, thanks largely to those "Adult" titles. Image is making a killing right now, with Saga, Moirning Glories, etc. The fact that ignorant comments such as yours still exists amazes me.
Funny, and here I was pretty certain sales have been going down since the golden age on. Except they have and you're just fooling yourself. Certainly things may be doing better now than say the eighties or nineties, I really don't care enough to look up the specifics, but without children the industry cannot survive, just like any other industry. Kids and teens are the most important audience, and excluding them is the absolute worst decision any Industry can make. If you are only willing to target your adult fans then how in the world is your industry going to expand other than through sheer coincidence?
Just for fun, the porn industry wants to argue that point with you.

I feel like the problem with this is that violent games get the most media coverage. I think the issue is over bloated due to that single fact. You don't see Limbo or Fez making it on Fox news after all.
 

Another

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I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet,(I only read the first page of comments) but does anyone else remember what they did in Alpha Protocol to make you reconsider killing? Because it made me really uncomfortable.

The Orphans Created stat.

It had a stat log where one of the stats was orphans created because you killed their parents. Apparently each enemy was assigned a number of children and when you committed a killing, their kids would be added to your orphan counter. I ended up playing the rest of the game as non-violent as possible.
 

DirgeNovak

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Jul 23, 2008
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Yeah, he's totally right. Violence in games should disappear. All games should be bland, boring Mickey-fucking-Mouse games.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off playing Max Payne 3 and Lollipop Chainsaw.
 

Not G. Ivingname

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Yes, you don't want violent games at all... by the way, which is why you chose to work on Epic Mickey! :D



IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE MAGIC KINGDOM, THERE IS ONLY WAR.
 

Truly-A-Lie

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Saying it needs to stop is ridiculous. It just needs context. Sin City didn't bring the comics industry down, Hostel didn't kill movies and Hitman won't kill games. Sure there are ways to portray violence well and ways to do it poorly, but that's all subjective anyway. In a world without violent games we'd lose any story that wants to create discourse on issues relating to the darker side of human nature. Bye intelligent horror, morality tales, or anything that requires a villain that represents the atrocities we see in real life. How could any creator want to be rid of all that?
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Wait wait wait:

I don't think Deus Ex tried particulary hard to make the player uncomfortable about its violence. Sure, it didn't encourage him and at least at the beginning rewarded the player for using the non-lethal approach but it dropped it pretty early on and just kinda said "Kill them or let them live, it's your decision." which, of course, is nothing negative but it actually rewarded players for killing bosses. If you let them live you had to fight them again later on. It didn't even humanize enemies. Most of them were faceless security guards and the antagonist were pretty much all cartoonishly evil "I'm gonna take over the world" comicbook villains.

Now, i don't want to pick on Specter. He's a fantastic game designer and i can see where he's coming from. Violence in Deus Ex was always a tool to get to a certain goal, not the goal itself. It wasn't the violence that was supposed to be cathartic it was tactically using (or not using) violence to reach your goal that was cathartic. Now i'd argue it was the same with Hitman: Blood Money (which in one way or another is actually pretty similar to Deus Ex in a lot of ways, now that i'm thinking about it). It was not about violently killing your targets it was about planning and executing the murder. The act of shooting a guy in the head wasn't what made the game great. It was about carefully placing a bomb on a chandelier, switching a prop gun with a real gun an then innocently watching your plan come together. Which is why i really didn't like the Absolution trailer but... i'm beating a dead horse with that one. You see, it's not like violence is something inherently bad. But it should have a point rather than being the point in and on itself.
 

AgentCooper

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Revnak said:
Fumbles said:
Revnak said:
Comics died as an industry when they decided kids weren't worth catering to. Not a happy comparison at all.
Comics hasn't died... They are in fact, actually rebounded, thanks largely to those "Adult" titles. Image is making a killing right now, with Saga, Moirning Glories, etc. The fact that ignorant comments such as yours still exists amazes me.
Funny, and here I was pretty certain sales have been going down since the golden age on. Except they have and you're just fooling yourself. Certainly things may be doing better now than say the eighties or nineties, I really don't care enough to look up the specifics, but without children the industry cannot survive, just like any other industry. Kids and teens are the most important audience, and excluding them is the absolute worst decision any Industry can make. If you are only willing to target your adult fans then how in the world is your industry going to expand other than through sheer coincidence?
Comic Book sales are UP actually. http://www.comichron.com/

The market in the 90's when sales broke records left and right was do to people buying multiple print runs in hoping those comics would rise significantly like the small print runs in the past. That was one reason the comic industry saw very near a "crash".

Marvel and DC have launched kid friendly lines of some of their most popular hero's and sell quite decently.

Kids Comics have a decent list of these.

http://www.kidscomics.com/Home/1/1/60/1046
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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Snowblindblitz said:
Revnak said:
Fumbles said:
Revnak said:
Comics died as an industry when they decided kids weren't worth catering to. Not a happy comparison at all.
Comics hasn't died... They are in fact, actually rebounded, thanks largely to those "Adult" titles. Image is making a killing right now, with Saga, Moirning Glories, etc. The fact that ignorant comments such as yours still exists amazes me.
Funny, and here I was pretty certain sales have been going down since the golden age on. Except they have and you're just fooling yourself. Certainly things may be doing better now than say the eighties or nineties, I really don't care enough to look up the specifics, but without children the industry cannot survive, just like any other industry. Kids and teens are the most important audience, and excluding them is the absolute worst decision any Industry can make. If you are only willing to target your adult fans then how in the world is your industry going to expand other than through sheer coincidence?
Just for fun, the porn industry wants to argue that point with you.

I feel like the problem with this is that violent games get the most media coverage. I think the issue is over bloated due to that single fact. You don't see Limbo or Fez making it on Fox news after all.
Is porn a medium or a genre? Pretty certain it's the latter.

And bullshit. The AAA game industry is M rated. Just go watch E3 again and notice how 50% of the major titles are definitely not suitable for children. This is an issue, not some kind of media bullshit.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Revnak said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
But then, this isn't just a gaming issue. And as long as game publishers are on this " Hollywood" kick, we're going to see torture porn.
That comment would be a whole lot more legitimate if the majority of Hollywood blockbusters were rater R, except they aren't, so it isn't. It's more that gaming as an industry is insecure and thinks that more guns and violence will make it seem more grown up.
Note that ""Hollywood" was "in quotes."

It doesn't matter what Hollywood does, it matters what game companies think they're doing.

I'm sorry you missed that, but it's a very legitimate comment.
Let's be fair here, putting Hollywood in quotes can mean a whole lot of things. But yeah, I can agree with that.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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eyepatchdreams said:
Revnak said:
Fumbles said:
Revnak said:
Comics died as an industry when they decided kids weren't worth catering to. Not a happy comparison at all.
Comics hasn't died... They are in fact, actually rebounded, thanks largely to those "Adult" titles. Image is making a killing right now, with Saga, Moirning Glories, etc. The fact that ignorant comments such as yours still exists amazes me.
Funny, and here I was pretty certain sales have been going down since the golden age on. Except they have and you're just fooling yourself. Certainly things may be doing better now than say the eighties or nineties, I really don't care enough to look up the specifics, but without children the industry cannot survive, just like any other industry. Kids and teens are the most important audience, and excluding them is the absolute worst decision any Industry can make. If you are only willing to target your adult fans then how in the world is your industry going to expand other than through sheer coincidence?
Comic Book sales are UP actually. http://www.comichron.com/

The market in the 90's when sales broke records left and right was do to people buying multiple print runs in hoping those comics would rise significantly like the small print runs in the past. That was one reason the comic industry saw very near a "crash".

Marvel and DC have launched kid friendly lines of some of their most popular hero's and sell quite decently.

Kids Comics have a decent list of these.

http://www.kidscomics.com/Home/1/1/60/1046
I will admit my points were mostly about the dark age of comic books, and I'm not really surprised that sales are comparatively up. I did kind of make note of that in my post you quoted, that it honestly wouldn't surprise me if sales were better now than a few years ago. And it pleases me that the industry is targeting kids with some titles.
 

MrMan999

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Violence in videogames should be handled more maturely. Theres no doubt of that. I disagree that violence in games should be eliminated entirely, Which seems to me what Mr. Spector is saying here. Also on a side note, Epic Mickey was underrated.
 

chadachada123

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nikki191 said:
Tanis said:
I KIND OF get it, but it's not like other industries are any better.

Music has it's 'cop killer' or 'in the name of the king'
Movies have its 'saw' and 'the expendables'
Books have its 'american psycho' and 'twilight'
Comics has its 'punisher' and 'the walking dead'
Tv has its...


The list goes on and on and on.
We're predators, we LIKE violence, it's part of our dna.
the difference is that with games those niche violent genres make up the majority
http://www.esrb.org/about/categories.jsp



Oh yes, violent games make up the majority, all right.
 

Dfskelleton

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The only violence in Deus Ex that made me uncomfortable was when I couldn't understand why people exploded into pieces of steak. Yes, it looked like they exploded into steak.
Oh, and you could do this:

OT: I also thought the new Hitman trailer was awful, but I think violence has context in most things it's used. For example, I don't see how else anyone could survive a demon attack. However, I'm always welcoming games like Portal where there is practically no violence at all. Violence usually doesn't enhance or detract from a game. I say usually, because there are certain games like Painkiller where the spectacular violence is a core gameplay mechanic.
Games that have violence simply for the sake of violence usually fall flat, unless the violence is so over the top that it becomes funny, such as in Mortal Kombat.
 

Fumbles

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Apr 15, 2009
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Revnak said:
Fumbles said:
Revnak said:
Comics died as an industry when they decided kids weren't worth catering to. Not a happy comparison at all.
Comics hasn't died... They are in fact, actually rebounded, thanks largely to those "Adult" titles. Image is making a killing right now, with Saga, Moirning Glories, etc. The fact that ignorant comments such as yours still exists amazes me.
Funny, and here I was pretty certain sales have been going down since the golden age on. Except they have and you're just fooling yourself. Certainly things may be doing better now than say the eighties or nineties, I really don't care enough to look up the specifics, but without children the industry cannot survive, just like any other industry. Kids and teens are the most important audience, and excluding them is the absolute worst decision any Industry can make. If you are only willing to target your adult fans then how in the world is your industry going to expand other than through sheer coincidence?
Technically no, mostly due to movie sales (The Avengers). I contend though that there are still kid comics, for every Saga there is Mice Templars, etc. There is a really large section of kid appropriate titles, but there are the darker more adult titles as well.
 

theultimateend

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Tanis said:
I KIND OF get it, but it's not like other industries are any better.

Music has it's 'cop killer' or 'in the name of the king'
Movies have its 'saw' and 'the expendables'
Books have its 'american psycho' and 'twilight'
Comics has its 'punisher' and 'the walking dead'
Tv has its...


The list goes on and on and on.
We're predators, we LIKE violence, it's part of our dna.
It's not marketing to the majority, its marketing to the most likely to spend.

Try not to get those confused.

>_>

For every million people playing X in the US there are 299 million that are not. Think similarly for the world. The numbers tend to be quite small in the grand scheme of things. Even if you add it all up and assume different audiences for each example. Which would be incredibly disingenuous but regardless.

chadachada123 said:
http://www.esrb.org/about/categories.jsp



Oh yes, violent games make up the majority, all right.
Children are probably the easiest to market to. I'd say folks who feel tingly at the thought of violence would be the second easiest. Sex maybe third or tied with second. (which is probably why sex tends to be the thing we taboo all over the place...but I imagine its a bit more complicated with cognitive dissonance etc).

Mostly because its about as basic as thought processes can go.
 

geizr

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I'm probably reiterating what others have already said, but I'll throw my voice in anyway. In my opinion, the problem is not that there is violence in video games, because violence is an occurrence within the human experience. The problem is that video games, at least AAA Western video games, simply are not being designed with any thought, effort, or intent, whatsoever, to explore any other facets or possibilities. Basically, the AAA segment of the industry has become too inbred, and, now, there just isn't any balance in the type of experiences from that segment. That entire segment has become over-saturated with dark, edgy hyper-violence.

However, once you break out of the AAA segment, the landscape looks completely different.

EDIT: change of word choice on the last sentence.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Jun 4, 2010
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Tanis said:
We're predators, we LIKE violence, it's part of our dna.
Indeed. Violence is instinctual, it appeals to something very deep down within our psyches. It's a natural part of us and we should recognize it as such, not repress it and act like it's some sort of unnatural form of degeneracy. A little indulgence every now and again is healthy. It's when people become obsessed and lose track of reality that it becomes a problem.

The enjoyment of violence in media doesn't mean jack-squat. I thoroughly enjoy it (e.g. I laughed giddily when the Hound cut a guy in half in the third to last episode of Game of Thrones) and I've never even had so much as a parking ticket. You can say that I'm a terrible person but I frankly don't care. I've come to reject realism about objective moral value, and thus I have established my own value system from my own personal dispositions and will. Read some Nietzsche, people.

Developers can disapprove of gratuitous violence if they want, but ultimately games and other forms of media are products within a capitalist system. That is to say, if the consumer wants to buy a product somebody will make it. So while these morally righteous developers enjoy stroking their egos with the idea that the ultra violence is somehow solely a result of their artistic inequities, the fact of the matter is that it isn't up to them to decide the direction of game development. They can produce whatever they want, but if there is a market demographic that creates a demand for ultra-violence, then somebody is going to fill it.

Kahunaburger said:
It's interesting that the violence in Deus Ex was meant to feel uncomfortable, because I definitely tried to avoid killing enemies in that game more than I usually do. It's a combination of humanization and alternate options, I think.
I enjoyed it personally, it had that groaning "Ooooh-ho-ho-ohoh-ho-hooo, that dude just got F&$%ED! Dayum." amusement factor. But I ended up using non-lethal take-downs because they gave you more points and didn't give away your position. Guess a game is ultimately just a game.