Deus Ex: Human Revolution... Why do we care ?

Jandau

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This thread is pointless. OP has made up his mind not to like the game based on its aesthetic and that's his choice. We're not likely to change his mind by whatever arguments we can present. He dislikes the tropes employed in the game, dislikes the protagonist and dislikes a whole bunch of other stuff. Well good for him, I hate some stuff about some games as well.

For what it's worth, I don't really care that it's a sequel to Deus Ex, since the gap in the franchise is so long that this might as well be a reboot. I care because it's a cyberpunk sci-fi game with a good aesthetic and promising gameplay. Not many (or any) games right now like it, at least that I've played or that are available on my platform of choice (PC). So I'm looking forward to it and I hope it's good. Better a new Deus Ex than YAGMS (Yet Another Generic Military Shooter)...
 

Kahunaburger

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hem dazon 90 said:
Kahunaburger said:
defiante1 said:
The game also has a massively overt cliche nature to it, the main protagonist drinks whiskey, smokes and talks with the gravelly voice of Batman. Although it smacks more of Eric Cartman from South Parks "Coon" episodes than Batman. Posing massively with this whole flight of Icarus type metaphor they have going with him, with build in sunglasses to his eyes and so forth. Screams of trying to hard and over compensating.
That's cyberpunk. And built-in sunglasses go all the way to the beginning with Molly Millions. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools?from=Main.TropesAreNotBad

Cyberpunk needs to innovate though. The last truly great cyberpunk novel was River of Gods[i/] And you know why that was? It took place in India, a place no western novel ever tries to explore and it did it very well. we need more innovative cyberpunk works like that.


I agree. I also don't think built-in sunglasses and a general noir feel are inconsistent with innovation. We don't really know a lot about Deus Ex 3 yet - it could be innovative, or it could be derivative. The renaissance imagery feels like it's trying to channel Neal Stephenson, but it's way too early to call haha.
 

Kahunaburger

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Sacman said:
there are major differences between western depictions of cyberpunk and eastern, in a visual medium anyway...
This I think gets to the core of the issue here. If their goal had been to use an anime cyberpunk aesthetic, the game would look like Ghost in the Shell, which it doesn't. Not, of course, that there's anything wrong with a game looking like Ghost in the Shell haha.

defiante1 said:
In the screenshots though ive yet to see anything that isnt slick modern Ipon like tech or any background that hasnt looked like modern Tokyo. I really fail to see any industrial type cyberpunk or even anything that has a more... improvised look to it. The tech looks bland and typical of most animes that involes giant robots or what have you, such as armoured core. Giant robots look far to slick and modern to be steam punk.
Well, cyberpunk as a genre, Western or Eastern, tends to use the Tokyo aesthetic anyway - Neuromancer, for instance, absolutely tries to evoke that, and (it's been a while since I've read it, so I'm not sure about this) parts of it may even take place in Tokyo. During the 80's, it looked like Japan was going to gain economic hegemony, so the "future characterized by powerful economic forces and pervasive technology" influential early cyperpunk writers imagined looked like Tokyo.

And cyberpunk =/= steam punk. Wires and screens vs. pipes and levers.
 

AcacianLeaves

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In this thread: a lot of people that were probably like 8 years old when the original Deus Ex released. If you didn't play it in context, you probably don't understand why the industry is so excited. Also if you don't know Neuromancer, you probably don't understand the setting.
 

Vault101

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defiante1 said:
As anyone who doesn't live in a hole should know, the new Deus Ex game is well on its way to coming out and will be with us soon. The marketing power of Square Enix is well at work at creating a buzz for it too but we have to ask ourselves... should we really care at all ?

The first Deus Ex admittedly was a great game but it was made over a full decade ago, not to mention developed by a different company. Ion Storm. Since then we had a sequel that was pretty generic and ruined the unique nature and ground breaking RPG advances of the first.

So why should we be excited for a game, made by different people in a series that stopped being relevant or good ages ago ? There is no reason to belive anything will be done right in this, especially since the dreaded Square Enix is controlling a large portion of it. A company that doesn't need that infamous exploits listed. Although their recent MMO is one example of their bad work.

The game also has a massively overt cliche nature to it, the main protagonist drinks whiskey, smokes and talks with the gravelly voice of Batman. Although it smacks more of Eric Cartman from South Parks "Coon" episodes than Batman. Posing massively with this whole flight of Icarus type metaphor they have going with him, with build in sunglasses to his eyes and so forth. Screams of trying to hard and over compensating.

Squire Enix's influence can also be felt with the huge anime styled nature of the visuals the game has provided so far. Something that the first game never had although the second toyed with and failed miserably. Everything from sexualized females to ridiculous story writing attempts that while may work in Japanese culture, rarely translate into a Western idea of a story. Something that can be seen in most JRPGs. Squire Enix has also announced that it will not be related to the previous Deus Ex games in any way story wise save for basic universe.

So with all these terrible omens to take note off, should we really be anything more than optimistic about it ? A series that stopped being decent 10 years ago and died 7 years ago with its first sequel. Are we really thinking with our brains or just ramped up sentimentalism and "old school" dreams ?

Or are the masses just marching towards the marketings red flag, eating up the goo like Fallout New Vegas. Only to realize that once the shine has worn off they have been duped.
.....why are you chastizing people for not holding your veiws/being exited for a game?

Im cautionsly optimistic...and it look friggen awsome!!!

and Im just going to repeat my mantra

"wait untill the bloody game is out!" AND hwo much do oyu really know? have you only seen the trailer?
 

Manji187

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..."stopped being relevant"? Hell of a way to present an opinion as fact OP...blunt statement without any supporting argument/ evidence. Just cuz it's relatively old does not automatically make it irrelevant.

What about Diablo? Diablo II was released in 2000 (like the original Deus Ex). It's 2011 and there's still no release date for Diablo III... did it stop "being relevant" in the meantime?

Thief 3 (Deadly Shadows) was released in 2004. Again, no release date (speculation: prolly somewhere in 2012). Did it stop "being relevant" in the meantime?
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Wabblefish said:
The first one was nostalgic and used to be a great game.

Same with Oblivion...Oblivion is outdated now and is aging very badly (well...I suppose the mods are pretty awesome and make up for some of this) but we are all still looking really forward to Skyrim right?

Not to mention the trailer and gameplay so far looks great.
The difference is Deus Ex isn't as bug ridden as Oblivion, and likely as Skyrim will be too.

DE: Invisible War wasn't the best game, it did have it's moments tho. It served well enough as a FPS, but it lacked that RPG charm that made the first one a treat to play. I still play the first one. It's a classic that stands up to the test of time.
 

Outright Villainy

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This is why. [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/05/11/ten-things-you%e2%80%99ll-think-playing-deus-ex-3/]

The Rock paper shotgun guys are usually dead on the money anyway, and he's not saying "OMG best game ever", it's a warts and all appraisal.
 

Still Life

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defiante1 said:
The game also has a massively overt cliche nature to it, the main protagonist drinks whiskey, smokes and talks with the gravelly voice of Batman.
Sorry, this is a ridiculous complaint.

Also, most games have not explored Transhumanism in the depth that Human Revolution will.
 

Archangel768

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People have already said a few of these points but here goes...

1. Square Enix is publishing it. Eidos, their Montreal division is developing it. Square Enix does own Eidos but, the people working on it are not the same people that made the last two disappointing Final Fantasy games.

2. Final Fantasy X not remembered for it's greatness? Sure, a number of people think it's when the series went downhill but, most people remember it as a great game. The critics agree and it's huge fan base agrees as well. I don't know where you're getting your idea of this game being accepted as bad by the majority comes from.

3. Your view on the main character is your own opinion. To me he looks really cool and I'm looking forward to him being the main character.

4. Your problem with the visuals is also your own opinion. The visuals to me are stunning and very beautiful.

This is looking like it just isn't your thing and because of that, you won't understand why we care. Different people like different things and it seems as though you and I certainly like different things.

EDIT
Another point. Like the person above me. Just because something uses Cliches doesn't mean it's bad. If that were the case then %99.99999 things in every entertainment industry would be boring. While a lot of things aren't great, I hardly believe it's as bad a figure as stated above. Basically everything is cliche, so many things have been done before that it's become so hard to come up with anything original. Even a lot of things that are claimed to be original use a fair amount of cliches in the end. All we can do is try and enjoy what people come up with even if it uses cliches. If we don't, our lives wouldn't be very fun because there aren't many original things in this world.

Also, the anime sexualized thingy? I believe this game and everything else is called 'Man made' for a reason. Just because something is sexualized doesn't mean it's an 'anime thing'. Someone made a similar comment on Dragon Age 2 that if it were a JRPG, every woman would have huge breasts. But, wasn't this game pointed out by a lot of people that all the women had particularly large breasts? I hardly see this kind of thing as an 'anime thing' or 'jrpg' thing. This is human society. I also find it annoying that men can be sexualized so much and no one points it out. Just because women are sexualized by having less clothes doesn't mean it goes exactly the same way for men. Sexualizing men is done in a different way.
 

plugav

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defiante1 said:
Squire Enix's influence can also be felt with the huge anime styled nature of the visuals the game has provided so far.
Is it suddenly a bad thing that a cyberpunk game looks like Ghost in the Shell?

defiante1 said:
Everything from sexualized females to ridiculous story writing attempts that while may work in Japanese culture, rarely translate into a Western idea of a story.
Agreed on the Japanese style of writing, but Square Enix is not writing the story. As for the women, you'll be pleased to hear that, save for one, all the ones in the trailers look pretty plain. And, by the way, since when are sexualised women alien to Western storytelling?

defiante1 said:
A series that stopped being decent 10 years ago
How so? I've played Deus Ex for the first time last summer and thought it was better than many modern games.

That said, I'm excited about Human Revolution not because it's a Deus Ex prequel, but because it's a cyberpunk RPG.
 

Gill Kaiser

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You should care because the original is one of the all time classic PC games, and HR is being made with that in mind, by fans of the game, no less.

The art direction looks fantastic, the previews have been good, and all indications are that it's going to be the successor that Invisible War could not be.

Also, I really don't see what your problem is with Japanese-influenced visuals, ESPECIALLY in the cyberpunk genre. Cyberpunk anime like Akira and Ghost in the Shell have been hugely influential. Square Enix isn't even making the game, so you seem to have a bee in your bonnet over nothing.
 

ImprovizoR

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I embrace Japanese influence in video games. They have something very distinctive about them and I like it. I'm looking forward to new Deus Ex. I'm not very nostalgic so if a game turns out to be better than the original I will have no problem saying that it's better. But I already know everyone else will say that it's nowhere near the original. It's the way of things in gaming world.
 

JIst00

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Jandau said:
This thread is pointless. OP has made up his mind not to like the game based on its aesthetic and that's his choice. We're not likely to change his mind by whatever arguments we can present. He dislikes the tropes employed in the game, dislikes the protagonist and dislikes a whole bunch of other stuff. Well good for him, I hate some stuff about some games as well.

For what it's worth, I don't really care that it's a sequel to Deus Ex, since the gap in the franchise is so long that this might as well be a reboot. I care because it's a cyberpunk sci-fi game with a good aesthetic and promising gameplay. Not many (or any) games right now like it, at least that I've played or that are available on my platform of choice (PC). So I'm looking forward to it and I hope it's good. Better a new Deus Ex than YAGMS (Yet Another Generic Military Shooter)...
Basically this ^


AcacianLeaves said:
In this thread: a lot of people that were probably like 8 years old when the original Deus Ex released. If you didn't play it in context, you probably don't understand why the industry is so excited. Also if you don't know Neuromancer, you probably don't understand the setting.
And also this ^ One of the best books ever written and what that helped define the genre. The genre being cyberpunk.

Congrats OP, you have made youself look a complete asshat. From what I can see here, you have a PERSONAL issue with Square Enix, in itself pathetic, and have decided to critique a game, that there is little information about, well before its release. You clearly have little understanding of the cyberpunk genre and cliches in general as literary tools.

The original game is IMO one of the finest gamin experiences ever created, with its future noir cyberpunk infulences, innovative gameplay and well written story. The sequel was a cash in attempt, that like most cash in attempts, failed.
 

defiante1

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Ok one part of this debate I want to put to bed is the whole art style of this game, that wasn't a major point of my argument and people have hooked into it and adding all kinds of nonsense.

Firstly, yes the game is very Blade Runner Esq but that's not steampunk, its cyberpunk as quite a few said. Steampunk is low tech which this game clearly isnt, anyone confused on that issue needs to look up the description of art styles.

My issue with the art style wasn't that its wrong or inferior, is that it has nothing to do with the first game. The setting looks completely different, the setting in the first game. The first game was not massively Japanese influenced like this one clearly is. The setting reeks of modern day Tokyo with a terrible colour pallet. Everything is smeared brown like some bland FPS.

The first game went to real world locations, all over the world, not just some oriental backdrop that looks like courasant from star wars smeared with dirt. That was my issue with the art style, giving it a more anime spin and Japanese spin ruins a lot of the concept and ruins a lot of the future noir cyberpunk. To quote Jlstoo above me.

So please, quiet down about the art style. My point was comparatively with the first game, not rambling on about what constitutes cyberpunk or steampunk. Only reason I brought it up a second time because people began falsely calling the game steampunk which is wrong. Game is listed by the makers of the game as "Cyberpunk mixed with Renaissance" as I said in my first post. Although I do fail to see the Renaissance side of it, it looks exactly like Blade runner and the only ye old parts I've seen was in his dream.

So back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC...

Is this game worthy to be put in the same league as Deus Ex the first game...

My argument is no, because its made by different people and people who so far have shown they don't want to remake the first. The setting is different, art style is quite different, colour pallet is different, story is heavily SE influenced and even universe is different.

The makers have announced it is not taking place in the same deus ex world we remember. Its closer to a prequel than a sequel, the "ONLY THING IT HAS IN COMMON" is the claim that it blends stealth, shooting and hacking like the first. A VERY BOLD CLAIM.

Many games have tried that and none have succeeded like the first, so far we have seen no evidence to suggest it has anything as good as that save trailers and screen shots which really don't show good game play. Just hard action, something we know from the film world is that trailers all look awesome but rarely portray an awesome film.

Now to the subject of Square Enix, my words about them appeared to have angered a few so let me explain. Square Enix do not make good games and have not since FF7. Period. Now some people like the later FF games because of mainly sentimental reasons, no serious critique or game designer would say that their well made. More their just "fun" if you enjoy that kind of game. SE are generally disliked in the industry for their heavy handed approach and often hamstringing developers into doing what they want.

An example of this is Kane and Lynch. Buying up a western developer of the Hitman games, forcing them to make a new game similar and rail roading their options, leading to one of the worst games of last year.

If you like some FF games... fair enough, if you like FFX fair enough. But don't try to say these are good games, their not, just fan favorites. Speaking of the FF fans by the way, the series has not sold outside of its fan base for years and that fan base has steadily shrunk. Leading to desperate moves by SE in trying to remake the last real success, FF7. FF13 was famously a rip off this, starting in the same zone and with a carbon copy of cloud just changed to female.

So can we please keep this to facts, rather than personal attacks. I dislike SE sure... but so do a lot of people for very good reasons. They produce junk and I think more people should be up in arms about them getting their hands on Dues Ex and making it into a FF RPG.

Deus ex was a western themed RPG, western style story and game play. A classic sure, but Deus Ex human revolution has nothing in common with it so far.

Also, we can judge ganes before they come on what we see so far. That is the point of advertising, marketing and trailers. To make to judge it favorably, there is nothing wrong with taking the FACTS of what we know so far and making an opinion. Most of us buy games based on the opinions we form before a game comes out. So drop this whole "You cant judge it before its out, that's stupid!" Because it really isnt.

Many examples of games that are hyped up by media and turn out to be rubbish. Black and White 2, Fable 2 and Fable 3 to a lesser degree. Alone in the Dark, Haze, (Most Sonic games), Alien Vs Predator 2. Age of Conan probably the biggest one. Perhaps if more people judged these games by the vague trailers and studied the screen shots... we wouldn't have so many people being duped by marketing.

Facts are, Made by different people (Produced by the same sure but the first time around SE did not cut the arms off their developers back then, they made good games. Kane and Lynch Syndrome came in later), different art style (anime influence rather than pure cyberpunk), different cultural influence (JRPGS cut scene heavy, pretentious topics and characters),the cliche characters and bad writing archetypes (pretentious main character, typical dark broody anti hero with a black trench coat and sunglasses. Comprimised writting, pandering to crowds) How is this Deus ex ?

This thread is about if the game has any right to be compared to the first and WHY, stick to that. Not its damm art style, a minor point that isnt overly relevant.


EDIT

I will concede something though, sexualisation of women is not a JRPG or anime exclusive thing. Quite right of folks to say so, HOWEVER it is infamous with those and in nearly every JRPG or anime it features at least some of it. I dont need to list them, anyone with google can found thousands of examples. Pretty common knowledge and Square Enix is also known for it excessively, Finial Fantasy series's are rife with it.

On regards to this being a "serious attempt" at it and not a cash in like the first sequel... would like to point out Square Enix's history. Its no secret that after their MMO they annouced record breaking losses and they are also known for buying up old series and trying to make money off cult fans to generate profits. There is nothing to suggest this isnt the same cash in attempts we have seen from them in the past.