Deus Ex Scribe Says Gameplay Trumps Story

DangNabbit

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May 23, 2010
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Title's a bit misleading for this, escapist, she elaborates that they shouldn't be separated.

On topic, I agree with her. The two elements shouldn't be in different rooms.
 

Arec Balrin

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Feb 26, 2010
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Sorry but the original Deus Ex had one legitimate criticism: some dodgy gameplay. It was also what it had going for it. The 'narrative' isn't simply the story; it's what goes on, it's what you can do and how what you do changes things. Deus Ex abandoned the gameplay-above-all-else MO featured in First-person Shooters of the time and made it so much of the gameplay was instead itself of narrative value.

I've been repeatedly been disappointed by the things that have come out of this development team and I can't help in feeling not only alone in predicting Human Revolution will be 'rubbish' in the same sense that whilst Invisible War was a good game by itself, it was a 'rubbish Deus Ex' but also that I know why it was. Human Revolution may yet be a good game, but from what I've seen it's almost certainly going to be a rubbish Deus Ex.
 

Fidelias

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For me, it depends on the game. Sure, if it's something like COD, I don't really care whether it has a great story or not, that's not what I bought the game for. However, if it's something like Mass Effect or Bioshock, then I expect the story to be good, even if the gameplay isn't.

Really, we shouldn't have to choose between good gameplay or good story, but if I had to choose, I'd pick story every time. And I don't mean story in the FF13, 30-minute-long-cutscenes every second, that's not good story. Oh, I guess that's my opinion, but yeah.

Edit: By the way, anyone who is saying that gaming is about gameplay > story, remember why Deus Ex is getting a sequel. Hint: It's not because of the gameplay.
 

Chibz

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Grey_Focks said:
I feel like I'm one of the few people who agree with that, on this site atleast.
Preach it brotha! I for one am getting tired of story not only trumping but almost kicking gameplay out. Good to see SOMEONE involved with development actually gets it right.
 

Karilas

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Grey_Focks said:
I feel like I'm one of the few people who agree with that, on this site atleast.
Nah, I also agree, not to mention the peeps at Extra Credits. It's nice and logical, after all.
 

Baresark

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Gameplay is the number one item in a game. It's stupid to believe otherwise. You can have a good game without a good story, but if you give it a good story and treat it as an interactive narrative, you can have a GREAT game.

You can't have a good game with a GREAT story and broken mechanics.

Now if we can just remove the need to have cutting edge graphics in everything, we all win. Cutting edge graphics are icing on the cake, but not necessary for a great game. But, you can break a game by having the mechanics bogged down by graphic needs glitching, though this is rare.

Game development is like life, it's all about balance.
 

Electrogecko

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Everytime I said something similar to this I always got an assload of critcism from people on this site. Games are unique in the way they can express a story and in the fantastical things they allow us to do. Several incredible, classic, and cherished games have involved little to no story, but if the game mechanics are faulty, a game can not be redeemed.
 

geizr

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The thing about a creative work is that there isn't always a single hard, fast rule that always must be obeyed. You do what makes the most sense for the intent of the work. Sometimes the story is more important, and sometimes the gameplay is more important. Sometimes, as Extra Credit has pointed out, what you really need to do is find a way to tell the story through the gameplay, rather than keep the two separated. It all depends on what's best to convey the intent, mood, emotion, and spirit of the game at that particular moment. Even a concept like consistency may not be followed strictly at all times. (I have a broader definition of consistency than most people, I think, but, I don't want to create a wall O' text to explain it. Suffice it to say, to me, consistency encompasses continuity, uniformity, and inviolability of internally established rules. I had a fourth component, but I don't remember what it was, and I lost the write-up I made on it long ago)

EDIT: I think universality of internally established rules was the last component. Basically, this is that the rules are applied equally and in all cases in which they are relevant. By the way, just in case there is confusion what rules I am talking about, I am referring to the rules presented by the game world, itself, as one interacts with it, not external rules imposed on the construction of the game world.
 

HellspawnCandy

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Well think about how linear FF13 was, you had to be really into the story to actually enjoy the game. I kinda enjoyed it but it got really tedious, gameplay does help. I always use Red Faction Guerilla as an example because I freaking loved that game because the gameplay was so addicting and fun while the story was just as meh as meh will ever be. I'm hoping for some inbetween ground but the gameplay for the first two Deus ex games were pretty awesome so I'm not really stressing.
 

More Fun To Compute

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HankMan said:
I suppose I agree, but a really good game is one that doesn't sacrifice storyline for game-play or vice-versa. It shouldn't have to be a choice!
This is partly true. Something like Another World seems to have a perfect harmony between gameplay and story but that doesn't happen by accident. The person who created it had to come up with a way of creating that sort of harmony and if I remember correctly from interviews then I think that Eric Chahi would agree with the process of getting the gameplay experience right then using that as the foundation to build on. It's naive to think that, say, I could be a genius games producer by hiring five game people and five story people then spliting them into two teams and have them come up with ideas that I could then splice together without compromising either.
 

GrizzlerBorno

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I think There's a big difference between Gameplay (How the game mechanics translate to a player experience) and Storytelling through Gameplay (which is what SHE is talking about, it seems to me). In games, you can tell stories through Scripted narrative techniques (cutscenes, NPC Conversations) or through gameplay (using the game's surroundings/mechanics.etc. to SAY something). As an example, HalfLife balances these two techniques very well. Metal Gear Solid 4 does not. They are both still good games, but most importantly, they both have well-crafted stories, built around Solid Gameplay.

In summary, Good games have to have a compelling idea behind them (usually in the form of a narrative). It does'nt matter HOW you expose that story, but if it sucks.....people are going to forget your game. It's a given. Look at old FPS' like Medal of Honor. It had good gameplay, but do you remember more of those games.....or Metal Gear Solid 1?
 

Corven

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Sep 10, 2008
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michael87cn said:
Is watching someone else play a video game as fun as playing it yourself? No.
The large quantity of popular let's plays on youtube would beg to differ. Watching someone else suffer through IWBTG and laughing while they rage is very fulfilling, as well as watching a select few let's plays of Amnesia, it's just so much fun watching these people freak out when they encounter the scarier parts of the game.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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this is a simple answer that a lot of people forget: games never began with the intent to tell a story when they were first made so of COURSE gameplay takes priority. It's why I find the guys at Ninja Theory and Quantic Dream to be so pretentious since they've convinced themselves that somehow story is more important. Maybe if they had focused on gameplay mechanics their games wouldn't be such BORES to play (though what's tragic is that their stories aren't good. At all)
 

GotMalkAvian

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Feb 4, 2009
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I don't agree with completely ignoring story for the sake of gameplay, as in a complete lack of story, a trite story that only serves as a framework or justification for the gameplay, or a story so convoluted that it serves no purpose other than propping up the gameplay.

DeMarle's comments were completely reasonable and, I feel, the way that developers should treat storytelling in games. As an interactive medium, if gameplay fails in a video game, then people won't be willing to play for the story, no matter how compelling that story may be.

As usual, someone slapped a sensationalist headline on an otherwise bland article. If anything, I have more hope for the DE3 storyline knowing that someone like Mary DeMarle is overseeing things.
 

Marik Bentusi

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Aug 20, 2010
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Completely misleading title IMO. The writer made sure to stress that a game's storytelling should primarily be conveyed by means of gameplay. Gameplay and storytelling are not separate entities, but the gameplay is the story's carrier both in regards of the personal gameplay experience and the big story the game is trying to tell.

[blah blah 4 cents]
So if I understood correctly this means there is as little hard separation as possible. The most blatant version would be an intro cutscene, then you kill X wolves, then you get another cutscene, till the end. You can still have a balance between cutscenes and action parts, but they have hard borders. You can also imbalance it by having large action parts and small cutscenes with little actual story being told or vice-versa.

What I think the future of "storyweaving" is, is the blurring of these borders while enforcing the player to experience the world with open eyes and actively.
One of kind example that comes to my mind would be a certain infamous corpse from Left4Dead that is mentioned in the commentary, thus many people already know about it. At first glance it's just a body under a colorful blanket lying next to a table where the character can stock up on ammo. It's one supply point of many in the game and thus, from a gameplay perspective, isn't all that interesting.
However, the need for supplies enforced by the gameplay drives the player to stumbling across the body. And then they have to think for themselves. How come a body is covered with a sheet? Obviously someone must have put it there, so there was another person that was still alive at that point. Why did he cover exactly that body and no other? Maybe he was his buddy and they had a little base that would explain the supplies. Maybe his friend got caught by the zombies and had to be shot and since he couldn't bury his friend there, he did the least that was possible.
This is where the active imagination that books in a sense also confront you with, but also vice-versa in a way. A book tells you what happened, but you have to imagine how it looks like and fill in details. In my opinion a good game can show you what scenes look like, but forces you to pay attention to detail and make up whatever story is behind all this.
The key to making it a personal experience is to leave blank spots that can be filled by the audience.

It's still incredibly rare for me to see good storyweaving tho. Maybe because I don't buy a lot of games (I like to pretend I go by "quality over quantity"), but maybe because this kind of storytelling requires an expert. You can't write this like a movie or a book. People have realized that you need to meet special requirements when directing a movie because it can supply the audience with pieces of a story a book can't, but a book can also do things a movie absolutely can't. The same goes for games, but in my opinion it's harder than the other two mediums mentioned above because games are active. You always have an X factor. You can reduce that X factor by for example let the protagonist be not a blank slate, but have a distinct personality that appears in cutscenes, so you'll know exactly how other characters will react. Once you open the game with choice systems for example, you don't know what kind of character the player will create. The bigger the X factor, the harder to create the game, but also the more personal the experience.

I have a bit of faith in Eidos here however. The design team was shocked when it was told it have to crate tons of content most players would never see as part of the multi-path system. I just hope the Deus Ex universe will reflect your actions. I especially love it when a game world remembers and reflects little details that other games don't pay attention to.
What were you doing in the Ladies' restroom, Denton?
[/4cents]
 

Maze1125

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Oct 14, 2008
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I love how so many of the comments in this thread are agreeing with Mary DeMarle but think they're disagreeing with her.
 

Penitent

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Oct 25, 2008
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Greg Tito said:
"Obviously as someone who creates stories in games, I think story is very important," said DeMarle. "When I get the question, 'What's more important - gameplay or story?' my answer, surprisingly, is the gameplay. When you're playing a game, the gameplay is creating that story, and the experience that's coming out of it is the gameplay. If we tend to think of them as two separate elements, we're never going to succeed."

According to DeMarle, the best games blend the two disparate elements into one cohesive whole. "If [the story] is making use of the gameplay, and recognizing gameplay as one of the elements for conveying the story, then you build a really powerful experience. The story gives you an emotional attachment, a reason to understand your motive, and it allows you to immerse yourself in this thing that's not a part of your life."
This, praise the lord, is someone in the right position who gets it. Games are a language that is felt, first and foremost, and the best stories are ones that play upon the character and senses which the gameplay establish.

Thank you Mary DeMarle, you've just assured yourself a customer.
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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JediMB said:
Pay attention to Ms. DeMarle, Mr. Kojima.

The story needs to be part of the gameplay, and not hour-long cutscenes or phone calls.
Also pay attention that crowd that made Xenosaga......its a rare game where both suck but they managed to pull it off