Diablo III Beta Now Live

[rawrmonsta]

I managed to get into the star craft 2 beta. hope is ill get that lucky twice

 

[OMGIllithan]

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/snip

/snip

1. Buying power. Probably the least important point, but buying power for real money in a multiplayer environment is just stupid, maybe balance or power aren't all that important in a game like D3, but like I said, if its successful....

I should be more clear on my stance on the issue as a whole. I personally agree with you on this point, I think buying power in games is pretty stupid and probably degrades the experience for those involved. However, I'm not being forced to use the system and because of the cooperative nature of D3 multiplayer, I doubt it'll ever negatively affect my game play if I stumble across someone who bought gear. You might be offended by that asshole who bought all of his gear instead of playing the game for 30 hours to obtain it but you know what, that person is going to get bored with the game a lot quicker and in the end he or she only hurts him or herself.

2. Legitimising gold sellers. This seems to be the point you guys have the most trouble with, sure they will exist either way, but are you telling me you can't see the moral difference between trying to combat these people or doing nothing or making a few dollars off it yourself?
Maybe you own a boat, would you rent it to slavers? would you go to the police and set up a sting operation or would you just say no? Different situation, same moral choice.

This one is probably the most fickle of the issues, but a difficult choice (and in the end a smart business decision) had to be made. D2 was full of scams and people often got screwed by underground sellers. So the question is do you let the underground market flourish like it was never able to before (no soulbound items compared to wow), leading to likely a much worse situation than in D2? Thats the kind of thing that Blizzard had to weigh their decision against. By implementing the RMAH, it solves all of those problems, while creating the problems you stated in this point. So we're weighing people being scammed and legitimately hurt against the morality of allowing farmers to be legitimate. Despite the fact that YOU wont buy items (and I won't either for that matter), this still protects other players from being scammed. Morality is tough to give up on but there are two sides of the coin.

4. People are stupid and pay real money for items, I know this and I know it is not Blizzards fault. SO WHY EXPLOIT THIS FACT? Only the worst kind of scum exploit other peoples stupidity; Drug dealers, politicians, gold sellers and now Blizzard.

Again, people were going to do it anyways. By putting the market in a safe environment, it protects the people involved in the transaction. No scams will be possible like the ones so prevalent in D2. It was also a smart business decision on Blizzard's part in that sense because now they have some continual income to fund the servers long after the game is out of most people's minds. I still don't understand the reasoning for getting mad at a company for micro transactions. They're not stealing your money, you have to voluntarily use the RMAH.

5. Influence on the games industry. I don't know if you have been paying attention recently, but the industry is currently going through a "lets seem how much cash we can make on top of all our cash" phase. Some of it has had a positive effect, like SOME dlc has basically replaced expansion packs, its easier to distribute and it sells better and we get more of the games we love. Some of it is wholly evil, such as online passes and real money auction houses, they don't serve to enhance your gaming experience, they don't help anyone get more of the games love they are about making money for moneys sake and nothing else. And that is what is fucked with the world. Sure, as a business it makes sense to test the limits of what people will buy and we let them know when they go too far BY NOT BUYING IT.

The difference between CoD $15 map packs and the RMAH is that everyone is still getting the same content regardless of using the RMAH or not. They're not actively exploiting people, they're basically saying "Here, have this feature. You can use it if you want and if you do thats great, but it won't negatively affect you if you don't."

6. Tzekelkan, you claim people are the masters of their own fate. That is true to a degree, but we need strength to that, until we find it we are just slaves to our compulsions. And Gambling is one of the tougher compulsions to break. And isn't that what the Real Money auction is? Gambling? Lets say you get that epic you can't use, you put it up for £5 and you pay your fixed deposit, it doesn't sell, you put it up again absolutely sure it will sell this time, but you get undercut and you put it up again.... I could go on with this little story, but I made my point I think.

Online gambling is illegal in the US.
Ebay is a company based in the US.
Ebay (and equivalent sites) are not illegal in the US.
Real money auctions are equivalent to online gambling.

One of these statements is false.

7. Again, there is an in game currency auction house. WHY IS THAT NOT ENOUGH.

Thank you for reading all of this if you did, I know I rant and I ramble. But I honestly do see this as something very very wrong, I hope you will too.

Buy fair trade, buy free range and don't support real money auction houses in video games!

I think the core of this problem is the fact that a lot of us more hardcore gamers have somewhat of an elitist view of games. We want to be proportionally rewarded for the time and work we put into games and the idea of a system to circumvent that process offends us. The problem is that games are an ever expanding market that continue to appeal to a wider and wider audience. In doing so, they sacrifice some of these, for lack of a better word, grindy features to try to keep this wider audience engaged. Yeah you might think your hot shit because your holy paladin has full Tier 9 gear with a Val'nyr and your guild is killing hard mode Anub'arak while its current, but that kind of status isn't important to a more casual player. They just want to play for fun.

I guess my whole point with that spiel is that its not worth getting offended by games making it easier for some people to get ahead. In most cases, it doesn't degrade from your own experience and in this case, it's giving more funding to help Blizzard further develop the game that you love. Games shouldn't be about who has the biggest epeen, but about who is having the most fun. And if you're having fun, regardless of others, then you already have a successful game.

 

[go-10]

I don't know if I'll play this much with Borderlands 2, essentially Diablo turned into an FPS, I might get my looting fix there. Just out of curiosity and lack of google search at my office, I can't for the life of me remember if character appearance changed based on equipment in Diablo. Does it change like in WoW or are appearances locked based on class? Has Diablo 3 implemented this?

 

[WarKirby]

The spammers are cashing in on this one. i'm recieving a torrent of phishing emails pretending to be from blizzard, asking me to verify my battle.net account by going to their pretend site and entering my password. presumably so i don't miss out on the beta invite that is assuredly waiting for me >.>

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

I should be more clear on my stance on the issue as a whole. I personally agree with you on this point, I think buying power in games is pretty stupid and probably degrades the experience for those involved. However, I'm not being forced to use the system and because of the cooperative nature of D3 multiplayer, I doubt it'll ever negatively affect my game play if I stumble across someone who bought gear. You might be offended by that asshole who bought all of his gear instead of playing the game for 30 hours to obtain it but you know what, that person is going to get bored with the game a lot quicker and in the end he or she only hurts him or herself.

I think you misunderstand me, I'm not offended by that behaviour, I am saddened by it. And what saddens me even more are those who take advantage of people with a predilection toward instant gratification. Sure the Zynga business model is successful, but is it right? I don't think the RMAH is quite in the same league, but D3 IS a AAA title and if it is successful it will set a precedent for other AAA titles and before you know it AAA titles will be "Zynga'd".

This one is probably the most fickle of the issues, but a difficult choice (and in the end a smart business decision) had to be made. D2 was full of scams and people often got screwed by underground sellers. So the question is do you let the underground market flourish like it was never able to before (no soulbound items compared to wow), leading to likely a much worse situation than in D2? Thats the kind of thing that Blizzard had to weigh their decision against. By implementing the RMAH, it solves all of those problems, while creating the problems you stated in this point. So we're weighing people being scammed and legitimately hurt against the morality of allowing farmers to be legitimate. Despite the fact that YOU wont buy items (and I won't either for that matter), this still protects other players from being scammed. Morality is tough to give up on but there are two sides of the coin.

Fuck smart business, why not ethical business?
Also, was D2 always online? Did they have Battle.net authenticators back then? Was there an in game gold auction house in D2? And that right there is the bit I can't get over, THERE IS AN AUCTION HOUSE FOR IN GAME GOLD. What drove people to buy items in D2 anyway? I'm willing to bet that the effort required in tracking down someone with that exact set piece you need was too much for some people.
We are more protected and more aware of scammers this time around and if we are not smart enough to see the scam then we should fall for it and feel like an idiot and then never do it again.

Again, people were going to do it anyways. By putting the market in a safe environment, it protects the people involved in the transaction. No scams will be possible like the ones so prevalent in D2. It was also a smart business decision on Blizzard's part in that sense because now they have some continual income to fund the servers long after the game is out of most people's minds. I still don't understand the reasoning for getting mad at a company for micro transactions. They're not stealing your money, you have to voluntarily use the RMAH.

That is no excuse, imagine the police saying that about murderers, "oh people are going to do it anyway, so lets legalise it and make some money for ourselves", extreme example maybe but point remains the same. Why do you feel like that is an adequate excuse? There are a lot of things that "people will do anyway", we can try and stop them or do nothing, which is what most people do and I'm cool with that, but then you get the morally bankrupt smegheads who go for option three and profit from it, which is just wrong. And I'm not getting mad at micro transactions, there are plenty that I don't consider exploitation and wholly evil, costumes, character slots, mounts, spell effects, dungeons, pets, bag space, xp boosts, gold boosts, expansions, new quests and that really is a long list of things they could have done instead and I wouldn't of had a problem.

The difference between CoD $15 map packs and the RMAH is that everyone is still getting the same content regardless of using the RMAH or not. They're not actively exploiting people, they're basically saying "Here, have this feature. You can use it if you want and if you do thats great, but it won't negatively affect you if you don't."

And that is totally true, UNTIL IT DOES. Lets say Blizzard test the waters with this thing and its going good, they put a premium item up on their own auction house for real cash, they sit back and gauge the reaction and people buy it, then what? THINK AHEAD. My whole argument has been that this RMAH crap is part of an ongoing crisis in gaming, the thing itself may not be all that bad, but what IS BAD is what it represents. We are being pushed to test our limits, developers and publishers want to see just how much they can get away with and just how stupid their consumer base is.

Online gambling is illegal in the US.
Ebay is a company based in the US.
Ebay (and equivalent sites) are not illegal in the US.
Real money auctions are equivalent to online gambling.

One of these statements is false.

Oh but it is, listing an item costs money does it not? And is a sale guaranteed? No, it is not. Sure your odds are better than a slot machine or the lotto. Same fundimentals, risk for potential gain or loss.

I think the core of this problem is the fact that a lot of us more hardcore gamers have somewhat of an elitist view of games. We want to be proportionally rewarded for the time and work we put into games and the idea of a system to circumvent that process offends us. The problem is that games are an ever expanding market that continue to appeal to a wider and wider audience. In doing so, they sacrifice some of these, for lack of a better word, grindy features to try to keep this wider audience engaged. Yeah you might think your hot shit because your holy paladin has full Tier 9 gear with a Val'nyr and your guild is killing hard mode Anub'arak while its current, but that kind of status isn't important to a more casual player. They just want to play for fun.

I guess my whole point with that spiel is that its not worth getting offended by games making it easier for some people to get ahead. In most cases, it doesn't degrade from your own experience and in this case, it's giving more funding to help Blizzard further develop the game that you love. Games shouldn't be about who has the biggest epeen, but about who is having the most fun. And if you're having fun, regardless of others, then you already have a successful game.

Is this why you disagree with me? Because you think I'm being elitist? Far from it dude, I enjoy good games, AAA or casual, simple or complex. Appropriate reward for appropriate effort, is that such a big ask? I know that isn't always the case, in gaming or in the "real world", especially the "real world" in fact. People are fat and lazy and just want convenience but shouldn't we be striving for a world where that isn't true?
I just want you to think a little meta-game here. See the wider implications. How long before we can't even skip a fucking tutorial before paying for a skip button?

I'm going to end with this: I FUCKING LOVE GAMES and if it wasn't for this RMAH, D3 would have still been in my pre-order list. But this feels like the beginning of the end, don't accept this bs. FIGHT THE ZYNGAISTS!

 

[EvilScoop]

On D3 real money AH:
Lets think for a few moments about this. It means others than you with more money to spare will get gear without luck. In short, theyre paying money to favor their odds. A bad model for a competetive multiplayer game. HEY, wait a minute, D3 isnt a competetive game! Its a team based game against AI! Yes, it does have PvP, but that was added by popular demand. Blizz have stated it will only be for fun, totally unbalanced and no loot rewards. So we have a non-competetive team game where you and your teamates can buy upgrades for real money if they get annoyed by luck based drops.

Read my posts dude, I'm well aware that D3 probably won't have a huge competitive scene, but like I keep saying, if there is any success for this system here how long before it crops up in other games? This has greater implications for gaming, that is why I am so adamant IT HAS TO STOP HERE AND NOW.

Time Is Money Friend.

I don't know what point you are trying to make, but you can't honestly be arguing that we should effectively pay to not play a game? I can't believe that. But then some people do and they miss the point of the game, the fun and they are poorer for it.

Time is only money in so far that it is a commodity, the quality of which is not assured. People often mistakenly believe that money can buy better time or more time. So I might save time by purchasing an item on the real money auction house, but have I diminished that time saved by not actually playing the game?

I'm not telling you how you or anyone should spend their time.

I'm telling you that Time Is Money.

But if you want to make this personal then let's make this personal.

I don't think I'll ever use the RMAH, I don't have the money to dump into it or the business sense to make a profit from it. More than that I'm just more interested in the game and I find it more rewarding getting the random drops. That's fun for me.

But it doesn't bother me that other people use it. Because they either have the money or don't have the time. Likely both and I really just don't feel like getting upset over dumb principles that have nothing to do with the game. It's not a political battle and when people like you try to make it one and make everyone else feel uncomfortable just because they want to play a god damn game the whole thing becomes asinine.

The only thing I'll be fighting are the legions of hell.

 

[OMGIllithan]

I should be more clear on my stance on the issue as a whole. I personally agree with you on this point, I think buying power in games is pretty stupid and probably degrades the experience for those involved. However, I'm not being forced to use the system and because of the cooperative nature of D3 multiplayer, I doubt it'll ever negatively affect my game play if I stumble across someone who bought gear. You might be offended by that asshole who bought all of his gear instead of playing the game for 30 hours to obtain it but you know what, that person is going to get bored with the game a lot quicker and in the end he or she only hurts him or herself.

I think you misunderstand me, I'm not offended by that behaviour, I am saddened by it. And what saddens me even more are those who take advantage of people with a predilection toward instant gratification. Sure the Zynga business model is successful, but is it right? I don't think the RMAH is quite in the same league, but D3 IS a AAA title and if it is successful it will set a precedent for other AAA titles and before you know it AAA titles will be "Zynga'd".

I think the main thing we disagree on about this point is Blizzard's motivation in the matter. You think they made this system to take advantage of people; I think they made the system to help protect people from scams.

I dislike Zynga probably as much as you, however the comparison between the two companies doesn't quite make sense to me. Are they similar because both companies are profiting microtransactions? Microtransactions are something that has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen as gaming evolves more. We see it in all games in the form of DLC and their impact in the individual ranges from virtually nothing to significant. Microtransactions are a way for a company to make more without directly charging more for their product. This is good for us as gamers because it helps keep the price of games down. Also, microtransactions are always completely optional, which means you don't have to purchase them if you don't want to. Obviously some companies handle these worse than others but you get the gist.

Your arguments hinge on the fact that you don't think the RMAH "is right." My argument is that you don't have to allow microtransactions to affect you at all if you don't want to. There are people out there who want to play the game like that and thats their own decision and it doesn't affect you. It's like harassing someone because they're gay and saying shut down the gay bar down the street because it's not right. Thats how that person wants to live their life and it will almost certainly not affect you at all. You don't even have to go to that bar if you don't want.

This one is probably the most fickle of the issues, but a difficult choice (and in the end a smart business decision) had to be made. D2 was full of scams and people often got screwed by underground sellers. So the question is do you let the underground market flourish like it was never able to before (no soulbound items compared to wow), leading to likely a much worse situation than in D2? Thats the kind of thing that Blizzard had to weigh their decision against. By implementing the RMAH, it solves all of those problems, while creating the problems you stated in this point. So we're weighing people being scammed and legitimately hurt against the morality of allowing farmers to be legitimate. Despite the fact that YOU wont buy items (and I won't either for that matter), this still protects other players from being scammed. Morality is tough to give up on but there are two sides of the coin.

Fuck smart business, why not ethical business?
Also, was D2 always online? Did they have Battle.net authenticators back then? Was there an in game gold auction house in D2? And that right there is the bit I can't get over, THERE IS AN AUCTION HOUSE FOR IN GAME GOLD. What drove people to buy items in D2 anyway? I'm willing to bet that the effort required in tracking down someone with that exact set piece you need was too much for some people.
We are more protected and more aware of scammers this time around and if we are not smart enough to see the scam then we should fall for it and feel like an idiot and then never do it again.

Blizzard is a company, they exist to make money. This is the same as every company that has ever existed. This is not an ethical issue.

If there was only an auction house for in game gold then people would buy in game gold, the solution isn't that simple. People already buy wow gold and that holds much less weight since wow gold can't go nearly as far. People buy items because people will sell items. Markets appear in places where there is a demand for the goods that can be produced in that area.

Also, I'm not sure a "haha fuck you for getting scammed" would be appropriate from Blizzard.

Again, people were going to do it anyways. By putting the market in a safe environment, it protects the people involved in the transaction. No scams will be possible like the ones so prevalent in D2. It was also a smart business decision on Blizzard's part in that sense because now they have some continual income to fund the servers long after the game is out of most people's minds. I still don't understand the reasoning for getting mad at a company for micro transactions. They're not stealing your money, you have to voluntarily use the RMAH.

That is no excuse, imagine the police saying that about murderers, "oh people are going to do it anyway, so lets legalise it and make some money for ourselves", extreme example maybe but point remains the same. Why do you feel like that is an adequate excuse? There are a lot of things that "people will do anyway", we can try and stop them or do nothing, which is what most people do and I'm cool with that, but then you get the morally bankrupt smegheads who go for option three and profit from it, which is just wrong. And I'm not getting mad at micro transactions, there are plenty that I don't consider exploitation and wholly evil, costumes, character slots, mounts, spell effects, dungeons, pets, bag space, xp boosts, gold boosts, expansions, new quests and that really is a long list of things they could have done instead and I wouldn't of had a problem.

Murder does not equal selling virtual items. You're again trying to use morality to justify your arguments, which doesn't do anything if you can't link it directly to positive or negative effects. The only negative effect you've stated so far is that it makes you feel bad knowing it exists. Also, I don't see how you can claim that they should have only a gold AH, then say its ok that they could sell gold as a microtransaction.

The difference between CoD $15 map packs and the RMAH is that everyone is still getting the same content regardless of using the RMAH or not. They're not actively exploiting people, they're basically saying "Here, have this feature. You can use it if you want and if you do thats great, but it won't negatively affect you if you don't."

And that is totally true, UNTIL IT DOES. Lets say Blizzard test the waters with this thing and its going good, they put a premium item up on their own auction house for real cash, they sit back and gauge the reaction and people buy it, then what? THINK AHEAD. My whole argument has been that this RMAH crap is part of an ongoing crisis in gaming, the thing itself may not be all that bad, but what IS BAD is what it represents. We are being pushed to test our limits, developers and publishers want to see just how much they can get away with and just how stupid their consumer base is.

Blizzard has already publicly stated that they will not put items on their own system. Don't jump the gun and make it out to be what it isn't. It's certainly a new idea among games, but the way its implemented it isn't specifically designed to plunder its users. Again, if you don't like it then don't use it. And if it evolves further into what you fear than don't use it. In either case, it isn't affecting you AT ALL. It only represents your fears because you're imagining what it could be come rather than what it actually is.

Online gambling is illegal in the US.
Ebay is a company based in the US.
Ebay (and equivalent sites) are not illegal in the US.
Real money auctions are equivalent to online gambling.

One of these statements is false.

Oh but it is, listing an item costs money does it not? And is a sale guaranteed? No, it is not. Sure your odds are better than a slot machine or the lotto. Same fundimentals, risk for potential gain or loss.

gambling present participle of gam·ble (Verb)
1. Play games of chance for money; bet.
2. Bet (a sum of money) in such a way
3. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result

auc·tion/ˈôkSHən/
Verb: Sell or offer for sale at an auction:
Noun: A public sale in which goods or property are sold to the highest bidder.

Gambling refers to risking turning an amount of currency into a larger amount of currency. If you lose then you just lost everything.

An auction refers to turning a good or commodity into cash by putting up for bidding. If the item doesn't sell then you only lost the list cost.

I hope you can see the difference.

I think the core of this problem is the fact that a lot of us more hardcore gamers have somewhat of an elitist view of games. We want to be proportionally rewarded for the time and work we put into games and the idea of a system to circumvent that process offends us. The problem is that games are an ever expanding market that continue to appeal to a wider and wider audience. In doing so, they sacrifice some of these, for lack of a better word, grindy features to try to keep this wider audience engaged. Yeah you might think your hot shit because your holy paladin has full Tier 9 gear with a Val'nyr and your guild is killing hard mode Anub'arak while its current, but that kind of status isn't important to a more casual player. They just want to play for fun.

I guess my whole point with that spiel is that its not worth getting offended by games making it easier for some people to get ahead. In most cases, it doesn't degrade from your own experience and in this case, it's giving more funding to help Blizzard further develop the game that you love. Games shouldn't be about who has the biggest epeen, but about who is having the most fun. And if you're having fun, regardless of others, then you already have a successful game.

Is this why you disagree with me? Because you think I'm being elitist? Far from it dude, I enjoy good games, AAA or casual, simple or complex. Appropriate reward for appropriate effort, is that such a big ask? I know that isn't always the case, in gaming or in the "real world", especially the "real world" in fact. People are fat and lazy and just want convenience but shouldn't we be striving for a world where that isn't true?
I just want you to think a little meta-game here. See the wider implications. How long before we can't even skip a fucking tutorial before paying for a skip button?

I'm going to end with this: I FUCKING LOVE GAMES and if it wasn't for this RMAH, D3 would have still been in my pre-order list. But this feels like the beginning of the end, don't accept this bs. FIGHT THE ZYNGAISTS!

You just said you weren't an elitist but you said you only enjoyed a subset of games you thought were good, and called casual gamers fat and lazy. Not everyone plays games to strive for that sense of accomplishment like the hardcore crowd does. Some people just want to play games for fun rather than to feel like they're doing another job.

Its one thing to love and be passionate about games, but its another thing to shut other people out because you built up a morality that doesn't allow others to play games a certain way. Like I said earlier, I don't like Zynga style games just as much as you but you know what, I also don't play them. I'm also most likely NEVER going to use the RMAH because I don't care for that sort of thing. That, however, does not give me the right to be pissed at the people who will, or be pissed at Blizzard for allowing them to.

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

I'm not telling you how you or anyone should spend their time.

I'm telling you that Time Is Money.

But if you want to make this personal then let's make this personal.

I don't think I'll ever use the RMAH, I don't have the money to dump into it or the business sense to make a profit from it. More than that I'm just more interested in the game and I find it more rewarding getting the random drops. That's fun for me.

But it doesn't bother me that other people use it. Because they either have the money or don't have the time. Likely both and I really just don't feel like getting upset over dumb principles that have nothing to do with the game. It's not a political battle and when people like you try to make it one and make everyone else feel uncomfortable just because they want to play a god damn game the whole thing becomes asinine.

The only thing I'll be fighting are the legions of hell.

I'm not sure if people are just not reading my posts or just not understanding them.
The issue is not with D3 itself, the issue is with what it represents. Not only about game developer/publisher attitudes towards gamers but the long lasting ramifications of a successful power purchasing system within a AAA game. Where will the line be drawn? Will we have to face the horrific prospect of a AAA game where we have to pay extra for progress? Will D3 feature real money only armor sets down the line?

Its honestly infuriating to hear people say "doesn't effect me directly, right this second so I don't care" and knowing full well that they will be the first to complain when it all goes too far.

I think the main thing we disagree on about this point is Blizzard's motivation in the matter. You think they made this system to take advantage of people; I think they made the system to help protect people from scams.

I dislike Zynga probably as much as you, however the comparison between the two companies doesn't quite make sense to me. Are they similar because both companies are profiting microtransactions? Microtransactions are something that has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen as gaming evolves more. We see it in all games in the form of DLC and their impact in the individual ranges from virtually nothing to significant. Microtransactions are a way for a company to make more without directly charging more for their product. This is good for us as gamers because it helps keep the price of games down. Also, microtransactions are always completely optional, which means you don't have to purchase them if you don't want to. Obviously some companies handle these worse than others but you get the gist.

Your arguments hinge on the fact that you don't think the RMAH "is right." My argument is that you don't have to allow microtransactions to affect you at all if you don't want to. There are people out there who want to play the game like that and thats their own decision and it doesn't affect you. It's like harassing someone because they're gay and saying shut down the gay bar down the street because it's not right. Thats how that person wants to live their life and it will almost certainly not affect you at all. You don't even have to go to that bar if you don't want.

I think you are being a bit naive, are you honestly telling me that this idea was born out the genuine desire to do right by their customers? That making a profit never even crossed their minds?
They made the system to get in on the scam.

As for the Zynga comments, I'm fully aware that Blizzard in its current state are nothing like Zynga, but that is honestly what I see them becoming. If people pay for this shit now then what is there to stop them from becoming more and more like Zynga? THAT IS WHAT MY WHOLE DAMN ARGUMENT HAS BEEN ABOUT.

Poor analogy, it is the perceived exploitation of the consumer on part of the developer and the potential for even worse exploitation of the consumer further down the line that I am railing against. Whether I am right or wrong in that perception is the crux of this debate, we are not debating whether or not that exploitation itself is morally right or wrong as it is unequivocally wrong.

Blizzard is a company, they exist to make money. This is the same as every company that has ever existed. This is not an ethical issue.

If there was only an auction house for in game gold then people would buy in game gold, the solution isn't that simple. People already buy wow gold and that holds much less weight since wow gold can't go nearly as far. People buy items because people will sell items. Markets appear in places where there is a demand for the goods that can be produced in that area.

Also, I'm not sure a "haha fuck you for getting scammed" would be appropriate from Blizzard.

And you just negated your first quoted point, Blizzard are indeed a company and they do indeed exist to make money. Thank you for agreeing with me and validating my opinion in that matter.
But when is anything ever NOT an ethical issue?

If a sweatshop is making knock-off Nike trainers and then Nike decide to let them make legitimate Nike trainers and take their cut but change none of the poor conditions, is that a morally right choice? No, but it is good business.

No but Blizzards job as a respectable business is help the poor morons who do get scammed get their stuff back. Which is what they do in games like WoW. But join a paypal or whatever account to your Blizzard account? Then tell me people will be protected, that they won't be the target of scams.

Murder does not equal selling virtual items. You're again trying to use morality to justify your arguments, which doesn't do anything if you can't link it directly to positive or negative effects. The only negative effect you've stated so far is that it makes you feel bad knowing it exists. Also, I don't see how you can claim that they should have only a gold AH, then say its ok that they could sell gold as a microtransaction.

I didn't see a TLDR, but I'll assume that's what happened there. I pointed out that it was an EXTREME example, as in exaggerated for additional effect. Also I said gold BOOST not gold BUY, there is a difference, haven't you ever seen an item that says "increases gold dropped by XX%" THAT is what I was referencing.

Blizzard has already publicly stated that they will not put items on their own system. Don't jump the gun and make it out to be what it isn't. It's certainly a new idea among games, but the way its implemented it isn't specifically designed to plunder its users. Again, if you don't like it then don't use it. And if it evolves further into what you fear than don't use it. In either case, it isn't affecting you AT ALL. It only represents your fears because you're imagining what it could be come rather than what it actually is.

Yes because you can always count on Blizzard to follow through on their promises, as much as I used to love em, they did fail at this.

Firstly, I have said as much myself on several occasions, I'm becoming more and more convinced you don't even read my side and I'm just fighting blind fanboyism here. But what is COULD become represents something so repugnant I feel obligated to try and fight it now. If I am just pissing in the wind here and none of this comes to pass I'll be a happy man, but I'll be damned if do nothing and my worst fears for gaming do come true.

And in case you wondering, my worst fears are AAA Zynga games being the industry standard.

gambling present participle of gam·ble (Verb)
1. Play games of chance for money; bet.
2. Bet (a sum of money) in such a way
3. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result

3. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result

You copy pasted the words but did you even read them?
I admit, a listing fee is not a huge risk, but it applies. But what about purchasing an item to sell on at a higher price? Is that not a gamble?

Yes, yes it is.

You just said you weren't an elitist but you said you only enjoyed a subset of games you thought were good, and called casual gamers fat and lazy.

I just have to laugh at that comment dude. Really. Read my posts next time. And I didn't call casual gamers fat and lazy, I called everyone fat and lazy in so far as to want instant reward with no effort.

Not everyone plays games to strive for that sense of accomplishment like the hardcore crowd does. Some people just want to play games for fun rather than to feel like they're doing another job.

Its one thing to love and be passionate about games, but its another thing to shut other people out because you built up a morality that doesn't allow others to play games a certain way. Like I said earlier, I don't like Zynga style games just as much as you but you know what, I also don't play them. I'm also most likely NEVER going to use the RMAH because I don't care for that sort of thing. That, however, does not give me the right to be pissed at the people who will, or be pissed at Blizzard for allowing them to.

Your first statement there is correct, so why play a game that includes that kind of thing only to circumvent that whole process and isn't wrong to exploit someone who would?

Your second statement is wrong, so wrong. I am not attempting to shut anyone out, only to share my opinion and hope that they see what I see and I'll only be pissed at people if they buy into this and make gaming as a whole, as a community, suffer because of it.

Hypothetical situation: The Zynga business model for games becomes so successful, the AAA publishers follow suite so every game with a decent budget will now be a micro-transaction laden shit fest.

That may not come to pass and if it does I'll have to get by on indie, but what will happen to the Mass Effects, the GTAs, the CoDs. Those blockbuster titles are the ones in danger here the moment publishers figure they can make more money with a fucking "facebook game".

Just to clarify, I was not insulting indie games, you just can't make a Mass Effect on an indie budget.

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

Snip

Oh, so I'm not allowed to care about gaming?


Or worry about the future of gaming?


On a gaming forum?



Good to know.

 

[Cash4ItemsRocks]

Snip

Oh, so I'm not allowed to care about gaming?


Or worry about the future of gaming?


On a gaming forum?



Good to know.

No.

No.

No.

Is it good to know?

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

No.

No.

No.

Is it good to know?

/Golfclap

Your insults have cut me deeply sir, I have well and truly been schooled.

I shall go now and submit this masterpiece of scathing put downs to the institute of witty affronts so you can get the recognition you deserve for this, the mona lisa of derision.

And then I shall despair and cut my own wrists for I simply cannot measure up to the standards of excellence you have put forth, to the genius level intellect of a man who posts on a new account so he can avoid retribution.

Comedians of the world, look upon this person and weep for you know you can never achieve a level of humour a great as this. And know that Jesus himself died so that this person can one day make this post to so cruelly hurt another human being, mankind will finally realise its inhumanity to each other and the process of world peace, love and brotherhood to all can at last start.

 

[Cash4ItemsRocks]

No.

No.

No.

Is it good to know?

/Golfclap

Your insults have cut me deeply sir, I have well and truly been schooled.

I shall go now and submit this masterpiece of scathing put downs to the institute of witty affronts so you can get the recognition you deserve for this, the mona lisa of derision.

And then I shall despair and cut my own wrists for I simply cannot measure up to the standards of excellence you have put forth, to the genius level intellect of a man who posts on a new account so he can avoid retribution.

Comedians of the world, look upon this person and weep for you know you can never achieve a level of humour a great as this. And know that Jesus himself died so that this person can one day make this post to so cruelly hurt another human being, mankind will finally realise its inhumanity to each other and the process of world peace, love and brotherhood to all can at last start.

One smart ass remark deserves another.

What I really can't figure out is why you're making this so personal... so personal to the point that you would insult me when I never insulted you, it really speaks on your character.

I'll be honest, I haven't been following this thread closely because I don't care that much. However, from what I have read your argument is nonsensical. You are looking at this whole situation with the childish attitude of "I know I'm right and they're wrong!"... Just take a step back and try to be reasonable. Try to look at the situation from other perspectives, don't interpret other peoples opinions to be personal insults on you!

As a closing remark I would just like to say that you can't tell the future, you have NO idea what Blizzard is going to do with this system or what other game developers will do. If it does catch on then just hunker down and don't play the games that offer those services (that's what it is, just as a reminder). Worst case scenario you step away from video games for a few years and enjoy personal relationships with real people. I think that could be extreme beneficial too you.

Have a good day!

 

[Cash4ItemsRocks]

Also, this just dawned on me! You think that I'm some else! What a hilarious -- and for you unfortunate -- misunderstanding! In fact, and let this be shown on the records of the Internets, I did not previously have an escapist account. It was only when, by chance, I stumbled across this post and decided to create this HILARIOUS user name and profile!

I hope this clears out some of the cobwebs that are crowding that silly little noggin of yours! TTFN!

Your internet friend

Cash4ItemsRocks

 

[OMGIllithan]

I think the main thing we disagree on about this point is Blizzard's motivation in the matter. You think they made this system to take advantage of people; I think they made the system to help protect people from scams.

I dislike Zynga probably as much as you, however the comparison between the two companies doesn't quite make sense to me. Are they similar because both companies are profiting microtransactions? Microtransactions are something that has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen as gaming evolves more. We see it in all games in the form of DLC and their impact in the individual ranges from virtually nothing to significant. Microtransactions are a way for a company to make more without directly charging more for their product. This is good for us as gamers because it helps keep the price of games down. Also, microtransactions are always completely optional, which means you don't have to purchase them if you don't want to. Obviously some companies handle these worse than others but you get the gist.

Your arguments hinge on the fact that you don't think the RMAH "is right." My argument is that you don't have to allow microtransactions to affect you at all if you don't want to. There are people out there who want to play the game like that and thats their own decision and it doesn't affect you. It's like harassing someone because they're gay and saying shut down the gay bar down the street because it's not right. Thats how that person wants to live their life and it will almost certainly not affect you at all. You don't even have to go to that bar if you don't want.

I think you are being a bit naive, are you honestly telling me that this idea was born out the genuine desire to do right by their customers? That making a profit never even crossed their minds?
They made the system to get in on the scam.

scam /skam/
Noun: A dishonest scheme; a fraud.

There is nothing dishonest about what they're doing. They've told you everything up front before we even know the release date of the game. How can you just assume that big successful companies exist just to fuck their customers over? Blizzard has fostered some of the largest and best communities around their games because of how much attention they give them?

As for the Zynga comments, I'm fully aware that Blizzard in its current state are nothing like Zynga, but that is honestly what I see them becoming. If people pay for this shit now then what is there to stop them from becoming more and more like Zynga? THAT IS WHAT MY WHOLE DAMN ARGUMENT HAS BEEN ABOUT.

Poor analogy, it is the perceived exploitation of the consumer on part of the developer and the potential for even worse exploitation of the consumer further down the line that I am railing against. Whether I am right or wrong in that perception is the crux of this debate, we are not debating whether or not that exploitation itself is morally right or wrong as it is unequivocally wrong.

One thing I think I don't think I understand about these arguments (not just from you but in general) is that you literally have NO trust in Blizzard based on what they've done in the past. You operate under the assumption that Blizzard created the RMAH to take advantage of people. What are they taking advantage of? Who is getting a bad deal here? People who don't use it aren't really affected and people who would seek this service can now do it safely. Are they taking advantage of the fact that this is a service that some people seek? How specifically are they going to exploit the customer worse? They have already said that they won't post their own items, what else can this turn into?

Blizzard is a company, they exist to make money. This is the same as every company that has ever existed. This is not an ethical issue.

If there was only an auction house for in game gold then people would buy in game gold, the solution isn't that simple. People already buy wow gold and that holds much less weight since wow gold can't go nearly as far. People buy items because people will sell items. Markets appear in places where there is a demand for the goods that can be produced in that area.

Also, I'm not sure a "haha fuck you for getting scammed" would be appropriate from Blizzard.

And you just negated your first quoted point, Blizzard are indeed a company and they do indeed exist to make money. Thank you for agreeing with me and validating my opinion in that matter.
But when is anything ever NOT an ethical issue?

If a sweatshop is making knock-off Nike trainers and then Nike decide to let them make legitimate Nike trainers and take their cut but change none of the poor conditions, is that a morally right choice? No, but it is good business.

No but Blizzards job as a respectable business is help the poor morons who do get scammed get their stuff back. Which is what they do in games like WoW. But join a paypal or whatever account to your Blizzard account? Then tell me people will be protected, that they won't be the target of scams.

Blizzard does not exploit sweatshops, drop the failed analogy now please. This is nowhere even CLOSE to being in the same realm of things so please stop pretending it is. In order to exploit Chinese farmers like a sweat shop, they would have to specifically fund them, which is not happening at all.

Diablo does not have the same loot style system as WoW. With wow its easy if you get hacked because you have items on you that are soulbound which could in no way transfer to another player. If they have a system like wow, whats to prevent people from sending all of their gear to a friend and whining to Blizzard to fix it? It isn't exactly quite as easy.

Also, how does attaching a paypal account to your battle.net account make you more prone to scams?

Murder does not equal selling virtual items. You're again trying to use morality to justify your arguments, which doesn't do anything if you can't link it directly to positive or negative effects. The only negative effect you've stated so far is that it makes you feel bad knowing it exists. Also, I don't see how you can claim that they should have only a gold AH, then say its ok that they could sell gold as a microtransaction.

I didn't see a TLDR, but I'll assume that's what happened there. I pointed out that it was an EXTREME example, as in exaggerated for additional effect. Also I said gold BOOST not gold BUY, there is a difference, haven't you ever seen an item that says "increases gold dropped by XX%" THAT is what I was referencing.

Oh sorry, a boost, my bad. Regardless, auctioning items still isn't equivalent to murder.

Blizzard has already publicly stated that they will not put items on their own system. Don't jump the gun and make it out to be what it isn't. It's certainly a new idea among games, but the way its implemented it isn't specifically designed to plunder its users. Again, if you don't like it then don't use it. And if it evolves further into what you fear than don't use it. In either case, it isn't affecting you AT ALL. It only represents your fears because you're imagining what it could be come rather than what it actually is.

Yes because you can always count on Blizzard to follow through on their promises, as much as I used to love em, they did fail at this.

Firstly, I have said as much myself on several occasions, I'm becoming more and more convinced you don't even read my side and I'm just fighting blind fanboyism here. But what is COULD become represents something so repugnant I feel obligated to try and fight it now. If I am just pissing in the wind here and none of this comes to pass I'll be a happy man, but I'll be damned if do nothing and my worst fears for gaming do come true.

And in case you wondering, my worst fears are AAA Zynga games being the industry standard.

I'll have to cut this argument short because its time for me to get some sleep. I have a glass is half full view of the world. Blizzard has consistently delivered awesome games and have given more attention to their communities for each game that arguably any other company. Blizzard is not Zynga and never will be. You call me a fanboy but I say I have trust in a company who has a reputation for delivering great games.

And yes I realize that you can say that Blizzard "LIED" based on that one forum post from way long ago that said something about having offline single player but please can we avoid another argument about why that was overall beneficial to everyone, because I'm sick of dealing with the glass is 3/4 empty views of the world who are dedicated to hate anything they can about it.

gambling present participle of gam·ble (Verb)
1. Play games of chance for money; bet.
2. Bet (a sum of money) in such a way
3. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result

3. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result

You copy pasted the words but did you even read them?
I admit, a listing fee is not a huge risk, but it applies. But what about purchasing an item to sell on at a higher price? Is that not a gamble?

Yes, yes it is.

Fine, I'll give you this point, I did not consider people purchasing and reselling items with knowledge of the fact that listing fees are supposed to discourage that. But honestly how many people are going to pick up Diablo 3 because they want to take a chance with the auction house to hit it big! The amount of people who are going to be negatively affected by this is going to be negligible.

You just said you weren't an elitist but you said you only enjoyed a subset of games you thought were good, and called casual gamers fat and lazy.

I just have to laugh at that comment dude. Really. Read my posts next time. And I didn't call casual gamers fat and lazy, I called everyone fat and lazy in so far as to want instant reward with no effort.

Sorry you called everyone fat and lazy. You still asserted the fact that you think some people are lesser than you. Hence, the comparison to an elitist. And I didn't originally make that comment specifically to target you, but meant to attribute elitism as part of the reason why people can be so adamantly against things that hardly if at all affect them.

Not everyone plays games to strive for that sense of accomplishment like the hardcore crowd does. Some people just want to play games for fun rather than to feel like they're doing another job.

Its one thing to love and be passionate about games, but its another thing to shut other people out because you built up a morality that doesn't allow others to play games a certain way. Like I said earlier, I don't like Zynga style games just as much as you but you know what, I also don't play them. I'm also most likely NEVER going to use the RMAH because I don't care for that sort of thing. That, however, does not give me the right to be pissed at the people who will, or be pissed at Blizzard for allowing them to.

Your first statement there is correct, so why play a game that includes that kind of thing only to circumvent that whole process and isn't wrong to exploit someone who would?

Your second statement is wrong, so wrong. I am not attempting to shut anyone out, only to share my opinion and hope that they see what I see and I'll only be pissed at people if they buy into this and make gaming as a whole, as a community, suffer because of it.

I personally wouldn't use the RMAH to boost my character but that doesn't mean I can just say thats wrong to someone who would. It doesn't matter that someone else would buy items because even if they screw their own experience by doing so, they obviously aren't someone who is dedicated to the community and are going to get bored of the game and leave anyways. Again, it doesn't affect you AT ALL. No one is suffering except the people who are stunting their own experience.

Hypothetical situation: The Zynga business model for games becomes so successful, the AAA publishers follow suite so every game with a decent budget will now be a micro-transaction laden shit fest.

That may not come to pass and if it does I'll have to get by on indie, but what will happen to the Mass Effects, the GTAs, the CoDs. Those blockbuster titles are the ones in danger here the moment publishers figure they can make more money with a fucking "facebook game".

Just to clarify, I was not insulting indie games, you just can't make a Mass Effect on an indie budget.

Whyyyyyy are microtransactions bad? They help support the companies who make the games you love even if you don't purchase them. The core gameplay is still there, and thats what you're ultimately looking for. And like I've said 1000 times in this thread already, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PURCHASE MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THEY WONT AFFECT YOU. There is no need to crucify something that a significant portion of the community wants just because it doesn't sit well with you.

The blockbuster titles are still stand alone titles without microtransactions, they stand on their own. Your good AAA titles aren't going anywhere so stop worrying.

 

[EvilScoop]

Fuck knows, that's what Blizzard has been doing for the past 2 years.

Got any proof?

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

One smart ass remark deserves another.

Precisely why I responded to you in the first place sir.

Now back to the intelligent debate.

scam /skam/
Noun: A dishonest scheme; a fraud.

There is nothing dishonest about what they're doing. They've told you everything up front before we even know the release date of the game. How can you just assume that big successful companies exist just to fuck their customers over? Blizzard has fostered some of the largest and best communities around their games because of how much attention they give them?


One thing I think I don't think I understand about these arguments (not just from you but in general) is that you literally have NO trust in Blizzard based on what they've done in the past. You operate under the assumption that Blizzard created the RMAH to take advantage of people. What are they taking advantage of? Who is getting a bad deal here? People who don't use it aren't really affected and people who would seek this service can now do it safely. Are they taking advantage of the fact that this is a service that some people seek? How specifically are they going to exploit the customer worse? They have already said that they won't post their own items, what else can this turn into?

Ok, so maybe it isn't a scam. But it still seems.... dirty to me and a bad precedent and I hope to hell I am dead wrong about that. And yes, I know I'm not being forced to use the RMAH and neither is anyone else. But you take a little convenience, throw in a reward and mix it with compulsive behaviour and you have an exploitable demographic.

I honestly don't know when my trust in Blizzard evaporated. I know at one time I believed they were dedicated to making good games before making money, because making a good game makes you money. Why I don't believe that any more I can't say for sure. But I think there has been a definite shift in their behaviour and their attitude in the past couple years.

Blizzard does not exploit sweatshops, drop the failed analogy now please. This is nowhere even CLOSE to being in the same realm of things so please stop pretending it is. In order to exploit Chinese farmers like a sweat shop, they would have to specifically fund them, which is not happening at all.

Diablo does not have the same loot style system as WoW. With wow its easy if you get hacked because you have items on you that are soulbound which could in no way transfer to another player. If they have a system like wow, whats to prevent people from sending all of their gear to a friend and whining to Blizzard to fix it? It isn't exactly quite as easy.

Also, how does attaching a paypal account to your battle.net account make you more prone to scams?

Oh sorry, a boost, my bad. Regardless, auctioning items still isn't equivalent to murder.

I'm still trying to find an analogy that works for this situation and I think that may be frustrating me more than anything else right now. So, I will try this from a different angle. We can both agree that the "item farmers/gold sellers" will be there, regardless. The distinction I'm trying to make is that Blizzard currently make no money from this but under the RMAH they will be receiving payment in the form of listing prices. And it is easy for them to say they have no responsibility over where that money comes from, which is essentially true. So these "farmers" become legitimate customers, despite whatever unethical business practices they may employ. So through inaction Blizzard become willing and profiting participants of something undeniably wrong all the while staying squeaky clean through the lack of any direct endorsement. Its quite devious really.

I don't think I meant more prone to scams, just makes you a juicier target I suppose. And claiming auctioning items being equivalent to murder was NOT what I was trying to say at all. I was attempting to iterate my point by using an extreme example of doing something wrong and someone profiting from it through indirect action.

I'll have to cut this argument short because its time for me to get some sleep. I have a glass is half full view of the world. Blizzard has consistently delivered awesome games and have given more attention to their communities for each game that arguably any other company. Blizzard is not Zynga and never will be. You call me a fanboy but I say I have trust in a company who has a reputation for delivering great games.

And yes I realize that you can say that Blizzard "LIED" based on that one forum post from way long ago that said something about having offline single player but please can we avoid another argument about why that was overall beneficial to everyone, because I'm sick of dealing with the glass is 3/4 empty views of the world who are dedicated to hate anything they can about it.

I don't dispute the quality of Blizzard non-WoW work, what I am saying is that it should stand on its own merits, because it can and it has. But making money from a game doesn't always come from making a good game, often the promise of greener pastures if we only weather the storm is enough for people to keep paying, WoW is evidence enough of this fact. And before you misunderstand me there, I am talking about a few specifically low quality/low quantity patches they have released during its cycle. I also worry about the desire to make some quick cash overcoming the desire to make a quality game. Zynga and Movie tie-ins are a prime example of this in action in todays market and no one is above corruption and no one is perfect. Especially not me, after all I was getting angry at you for my inability to adequately explain myself.

Sorry you called everyone fat and lazy. You still asserted the fact that you think some people are lesser than you. Hence, the comparison to an elitist. And I didn't originally make that comment specifically to target you, but meant to attribute elitism as part of the reason why people can be so adamantly against things that hardly if at all affect them.

I personally wouldn't use the RMAH to boost my character but that doesn't mean I can just say thats wrong to someone who would. It doesn't matter that someone else would buy items because even if they screw their own experience by doing so, they obviously aren't someone who is dedicated to the community and are going to get bored of the game and leave anyways. Again, it doesn't affect you AT ALL. No one is suffering except the people who are stunting their own experience.

As for the fat and lazy comment, I did not mean that literally. I was implying that everyone, myself included, will be tempted by the more convenient course of action even though the reward for effort is perhaps greater. You are adamant that you will not use the RMAH, like a lot of people, but how long before you heed the sirens call of the RMAH and that shiny purple is only up for £1, you think its not all that much money, so you buy it but the Blizz-wallet as a minimum deposit of £5, so you might as well put a few items up yourself and so it goes. You might not think it will happen to you or anyone, but it happens. Hell I did something similar in TF2 and felt like a right moron, with the Mann Co. Supply Crate Key. But some people might not realise what they are doing before it is a full blown compulsion. Farming bosses all night in the vain hope you might get something to trade and make a little money, all the while filling up that wallet to pay your listing fees. And that is what I see happening. And that makes me angry, because developers (maybe not Blizzard) will see this as carte blanche to use this as an entire basis of a game and possibly take time away from what we might consider a "more traditional" kind of game. And I know I'm dealing in a lot of ifs here and that might seem stupid to you, but I'd rather be damned for my beliefs and be wrong than praised for my insight and be correct.

Whyyyyyy are microtransactions bad? They help support the companies who make the games you love even if you don't purchase them. The core gameplay is still there, and thats what you're ultimately looking for. And like I've said 1000 times in this thread already, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PURCHASE MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THEY WONT AFFECT YOU. There is no need to crucify something that a significant portion of the community wants just because it doesn't sit well with you.

The blockbuster titles are still stand alone titles without microtransactions, they stand on their own. Your good AAA titles aren't going anywhere so stop worrying.

Just to reiterate, I'm railing against a very specific kind of micro transaction, on the whole they are not entirely a bad thing. Power and progress are the things we should not have to buy or feel the need to buy out of the innate desire for convience. But if these kinds of micro transaction I just mentioned make more money than the blockbuster AAAs can you really tell me you believe that publishers will continue to invest in them?

 

[OMGIllithan]

Blizzard does not exploit sweatshops, drop the failed analogy now please. This is nowhere even CLOSE to being in the same realm of things so please stop pretending it is. In order to exploit Chinese farmers like a sweat shop, they would have to specifically fund them, which is not happening at all.

Diablo does not have the same loot style system as WoW. With wow its easy if you get hacked because you have items on you that are soulbound which could in no way transfer to another player. If they have a system like wow, whats to prevent people from sending all of their gear to a friend and whining to Blizzard to fix it? It isn't exactly quite as easy.

Also, how does attaching a paypal account to your battle.net account make you more prone to scams?

Oh sorry, a boost, my bad. Regardless, auctioning items still isn't equivalent to murder.

I'm still trying to find an analogy that works for this situation and I think that may be frustrating me more than anything else right now. So, I will try this from a different angle. We can both agree that the "item farmers/gold sellers" will be there, regardless. The distinction I'm trying to make is that Blizzard currently make no money from this but under the RMAH they will be receiving payment in the form of listing prices. And it is easy for them to say they have no responsibility over where that money comes from, which is essentially true. So these "farmers" become legitimate customers, despite whatever unethical business practices they may employ. So through inaction Blizzard become willing and profiting participants of something undeniably wrong all the while staying squeaky clean through the lack of any direct endorsement. Its quite devious really.

I don't think I meant more prone to scams, just makes you a juicier target I suppose. And claiming auctioning items being equivalent to murder was NOT what I was trying to say at all. I was attempting to iterate my point by using an extreme example of doing something wrong and someone profiting from it through indirect action.

I think where we disagree is how to treat gold farmers. You think gold farmers are morally wrong and (exaggerating) should be burned at the stake. I think the issue is a lot more delicate than just what gold farmers represent. The best way to approach this topic is to determine exactly the damage farmers are doing to the game, how widespread it might be, as well as the positive effects it has on other people using the system.

We've already agreed that farmers would exist whether or not the RMAH existed so I'll use that as my starting point. I'll try to do my best talking about the negative points first. First, buying items can marginalize the experience for the person who buys them. Allowing farmers to farm unpunished will increase their market and therefore more people will purchase items. This can be considered bad because players don't get an equal experience because extra money on top is involved. Then a fear arises that this may happen to other games if this catches on. Well what if everyone can buy their way to the top? Thats just awful and ruins the competitive spirit of games. (I hope this encompasses the core of the argument)

Now time for the positives. First I will start out saying that is impossible for blizzard to police this group of people. The time and resources required to ensure that the game remains seller free and untainted would require almost a special police force to handle it (which as I stated before would be much more difficult compared to wow). By putting in the RMAH, it almost certainly will free resources to do other things. Second, and I think I've beaten enough out of this point so I'll just state it and leave it, in a safe environment, people who are interested in this sort of feature are much less likely to be scammed. Third, it eliminates spam. No longer will people make throwaway accounts to spam chat as many people as possible to advertise their websites because who the hell is going to use a third party website to buy items when its supported in game? This was one of the biggest issues that affected players directly.

Now I think the most important point in all this is why you view this as a such a negative thing. I hope I'm not generalizing when I say that hardcore gamers tend to enjoy the competition and challenge games bring with them. This competition exists between the enemies in the game as well as between other gamers. This RMAH challenges both of these ideals on the surface but I don't think its as dramatic as you think. First, it hurts our perception about how the game we love should be played. If someone can just buy their way to the top then they circumvent the game itself right? This part of the game is where I don't think its an issue because these people aren't affecting you at all. Now, whats probably more important to you is the competition with other gamers. In multiplayer games where any sort of pvp exists, this would be a HUGE problem. In D3, however, there is almost none aside from arenas. Don't quote me on this because I might be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that they're even going to match you based on your gear with other players. Also, theres not going to be any rewards from pvp so its not like you could get an advantage with money.

I know I haven't directly addressed the point of farmers being immoral, but I hope I convinced you to try to dissect why you think they're immoral in the first place and whether or not they're fitting of that term specifically.

I'll have to cut this argument short because its time for me to get some sleep. I have a glass is half full view of the world. Blizzard has consistently delivered awesome games and have given more attention to their communities for each game that arguably any other company. Blizzard is not Zynga and never will be. You call me a fanboy but I say I have trust in a company who has a reputation for delivering great games.

And yes I realize that you can say that Blizzard "LIED" based on that one forum post from way long ago that said something about having offline single player but please can we avoid another argument about why that was overall beneficial to everyone, because I'm sick of dealing with the glass is 3/4 empty views of the world who are dedicated to hate anything they can about it.

I don't dispute the quality of Blizzard non-WoW work, what I am saying is that it should stand on its own merits, because it can and it has. But making money from a game doesn't always come from making a good game, often the promise of greener pastures if we only weather the storm is enough for people to keep paying, WoW is evidence enough of this fact. And before you misunderstand me there, I am talking about a few specifically low quality/low quantity patches they have released during its cycle. I also worry about the desire to make some quick cash overcoming the desire to make a quality game. Zynga and Movie tie-ins are a prime example of this in action in todays market and no one is above corruption and no one is perfect. Especially not me, after all I was getting angry at you for my inability to adequately explain myself.

Wow is definitely an interesting topic that I think is worth addressing. Never before in the history of gaming has there been a game that has been able to be ever changing and evolving to keep people playing for more than 6 years (or are they on 7 now?). Part of the excitement of a new release (or new patch) hinges on the joy of discovering new experiences that carry weight based on your past experiences. The problem with playing a game for that long is that people eventually just figure it out. People are consuming content faster than ever before and are getting bored with the game more quickly because they already have the game completely figured out. Wow is currently in probably the best shape it has ever been as far as gameplay goes but it will NEVER regain the novelty it carried when it was first released, and even a few years after. A single game isn't meant to be played forever, and I think wow is proof of that.

I'll agree that some patches have been lackluster compared to others (3.2 sticks out in my mind), but is that really a symptom of a company being lazy? With such a large game having so many people working on it, sometimes their vision of whats going to be awesome misses the mark a little. Again, because I have an optimistic view of things, I don't blame them or think they're lazy. They delivered much more exciting content in 3.3 so I was happy.

Sorry you called everyone fat and lazy. You still asserted the fact that you think some people are lesser than you. Hence, the comparison to an elitist. And I didn't originally make that comment specifically to target you, but meant to attribute elitism as part of the reason why people can be so adamantly against things that hardly if at all affect them.

I personally wouldn't use the RMAH to boost my character but that doesn't mean I can just say thats wrong to someone who would. It doesn't matter that someone else would buy items because even if they screw their own experience by doing so, they obviously aren't someone who is dedicated to the community and are going to get bored of the game and leave anyways. Again, it doesn't affect you AT ALL. No one is suffering except the people who are stunting their own experience.

As for the fat and lazy comment, I did not mean that literally. I was implying that everyone, myself included, will be tempted by the more convenient course of action even though the reward for effort is perhaps greater. You are adamant that you will not use the RMAH, like a lot of people, but how long before you heed the sirens call of the RMAH and that shiny purple is only up for £1, you think its not all that much money, so you buy it but the Blizz-wallet as a minimum deposit of £5, so you might as well put a few items up yourself and so it goes. You might not think it will happen to you or anyone, but it happens. Hell I did something similar in TF2 and felt like a right moron, with the Mann Co. Supply Crate Key. But some people might not realise what they are doing before it is a full blown compulsion. Farming bosses all night in the vain hope you might get something to trade and make a little money, all the while filling up that wallet to pay your listing fees. And that is what I see happening. And that makes me angry, because developers (maybe not Blizzard) will see this as carte blanche to use this as an entire basis of a game and possibly take time away from what we might consider a "more traditional" kind of game. And I know I'm dealing in a lot of ifs here and that might seem stupid to you, but I'd rather be damned for my beliefs and be wrong than praised for my insight and be correct.

I can't imagine list prices are going to be much more than cents on the dollar. Ebay in particular charges $.10 to $2.00 for list fees and a 9% selling price cut. http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html I can't imagine a worse market for selling things is going to exceed that.

And if I do end up using it, so what? I have control over my own money and if I deem it worth it then why is it bad that I use the service? I know how much of my money I can and can't afford to blow on entertainment related things a month. I think its a bit brash to assume that people who buy items only do it based off compulsion. Sure there are probably people who do, but there are also people who drink compulsively who can cause way more harm to themselves and others than buying virtual items.

Whyyyyyy are microtransactions bad? They help support the companies who make the games you love even if you don't purchase them. The core gameplay is still there, and thats what you're ultimately looking for. And like I've said 1000 times in this thread already, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PURCHASE MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THEY WONT AFFECT YOU. There is no need to crucify something that a significant portion of the community wants just because it doesn't sit well with you.

The blockbuster titles are still stand alone titles without microtransactions, they stand on their own. Your good AAA titles aren't going anywhere so stop worrying.

Just to reiterate, I'm railing against a very specific kind of micro transaction, on the whole they are not entirely a bad thing. Power and progress are the things we should not have to buy or feel the need to buy out of the innate desire for convience. But if these kinds of micro transaction I just mentioned make more money than the blockbuster AAAs can you really tell me you believe that publishers will continue to invest in them?

I agree with not liking being able to buy power and progress, however, in a cooperative game like Diablo what other people do really doesn't have much of affect on you as a player. I think on this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.