Diablo III vs Path of Excel
- Thread starter The Wooster
- Start date
Here's a heretical statement: the auction house in Diablo 3 actually was not a bad idea; it was just badly implemented. The real problem, in my opinion, of the vanilla Diablo 3 economy was that there was no balance of forces between buyer and seller. Blizzard implemented a "tax" on sells in the auction house, but the effect of this was to push prices ever higher because the sellers were not getting as much money as they desired. In fact, some would set the starting bids and buyout prices to account for the 15%. Further, there was no cost to the seller to continuously cycle exorbitantly over-priced items in the auction house, many of which were absolute garbage. Worse yet, the nature of the RNG and itemization meant that there was very little choice for players other than to seek upgrades through the auction house. The end result was complete frustration with a hyper-inflated market flooded with junk goods.
In my opinion, the solution to this problem would have been to eradicate the tax, as well as the 10 items posted limit, and instead impose a 0.5-1.0% upfront fee on the sellers to post items in the auction house. This small percentage would have immediately put downward pressure on prices and eliminated junk items that don't sell. In addition, it would have automatically limited the number of items sellers are able to post on the auction house due to the sellers' limited funds to post auctions. At the same time, the fee, being as small as it is, does not put the seller under such extreme pressure that they are required to bottom-out their prices due to losses from non-sales; instead, the costs of posting items in the auction house could be easily made from normal item farming as well as profits from successful sales. Instantly, the 2 billion gold and $250 items would disappear from the auction house because of the extreme risk of unmitigated losses from non-sales; 0.5-1% of 2 billion gold is 10-20 million gold, which the seller would have to recoup from farming and sales of other items each time the 2 billion gold priced item fails to sell (a similar situation would exist for the RMAH side with $250 priced items that sit nearly indefinitely in the auction house). For items that repeatedly fail to sell, the seller is forced to either lower the price or cease posting the item (creating an instant item sink as the seller will be likely forced to vendor or salvage the item to make space for other items more likely to sell).
Basically, having this small upfront fee could have automatically kept prices in check without lending too much power to the buyer to bottom-out prices and automatically kept the auction house cleared of junk items. I think this would have kept the auction house a viable design component and kept the overall game economy healthy and flowing. In addition, Blizzard would have been free to adjust the health of the economy by moving the fee up or down within the 0.5-1.0% depending on the level of inflation and the level of quality of items in the auction house.
Interestingly, after writing all this, I realize the counter-point to my original thesis, that the auction house was not a bad idea just badly implemented, is that there is a strong possibility the game would still have reduced to "AH simulator" where people are playing the auction house rather than playing the game. Likely that problem, however, is mostly likely a result of Blizzard so strongly tying the drops to the distribution of items in the auction house, forcing players to seek the auction house for upgrades.
Certainly, as the game existed prior to RoS, Diablo 3 was almost entirely a vehicle of pay-to-win micro-transactioning. However, I'm not sure Blizzard's decision to nearly eliminate trade, except for a brief 2 hour period among members of the same party during which they can trade recent drops acquired while they were partied, is entirely the best. Although, I could see the decision for purposes of attempting to destroy the gold seller/farmer black-market.
In my opinion, the solution to this problem would have been to eradicate the tax, as well as the 10 items posted limit, and instead impose a 0.5-1.0% upfront fee on the sellers to post items in the auction house. This small percentage would have immediately put downward pressure on prices and eliminated junk items that don't sell. In addition, it would have automatically limited the number of items sellers are able to post on the auction house due to the sellers' limited funds to post auctions. At the same time, the fee, being as small as it is, does not put the seller under such extreme pressure that they are required to bottom-out their prices due to losses from non-sales; instead, the costs of posting items in the auction house could be easily made from normal item farming as well as profits from successful sales. Instantly, the 2 billion gold and $250 items would disappear from the auction house because of the extreme risk of unmitigated losses from non-sales; 0.5-1% of 2 billion gold is 10-20 million gold, which the seller would have to recoup from farming and sales of other items each time the 2 billion gold priced item fails to sell (a similar situation would exist for the RMAH side with $250 priced items that sit nearly indefinitely in the auction house). For items that repeatedly fail to sell, the seller is forced to either lower the price or cease posting the item (creating an instant item sink as the seller will be likely forced to vendor or salvage the item to make space for other items more likely to sell).
Basically, having this small upfront fee could have automatically kept prices in check without lending too much power to the buyer to bottom-out prices and automatically kept the auction house cleared of junk items. I think this would have kept the auction house a viable design component and kept the overall game economy healthy and flowing. In addition, Blizzard would have been free to adjust the health of the economy by moving the fee up or down within the 0.5-1.0% depending on the level of inflation and the level of quality of items in the auction house.
Interestingly, after writing all this, I realize the counter-point to my original thesis, that the auction house was not a bad idea just badly implemented, is that there is a strong possibility the game would still have reduced to "AH simulator" where people are playing the auction house rather than playing the game. Likely that problem, however, is mostly likely a result of Blizzard so strongly tying the drops to the distribution of items in the auction house, forcing players to seek the auction house for upgrades.
Certainly, as the game existed prior to RoS, Diablo 3 was almost entirely a vehicle of pay-to-win micro-transactioning. However, I'm not sure Blizzard's decision to nearly eliminate trade, except for a brief 2 hour period among members of the same party during which they can trade recent drops acquired while they were partied, is entirely the best. Although, I could see the decision for purposes of attempting to destroy the gold seller/farmer black-market.
Never understood how people could love D2 so much and then hate D3 for the auction house. Really? You missed Stone of Jordan-fed trades being spammed on chats? D3 suffered from poor itemization and a bland story (although, again, not much different from D2's story). But one of its problems wasn't a public trading option.
For me, it wasn't that the AH existed, but their weird new system regarding soul binding. Being able to trade an item after you were done using it meant that items didn't lose their value by being used. Which meant that grabbing a good item didn't result in a loss of value for that item, leading to the easiest method of gaining power was by farming gold to buy the next "tier" of good items.irishda said:
Farming gold sucks. Items are fun, and they didn't drop quick enough compared to what you could get by going to the AH. That and things like crafting then became a false path, as it wasted your gold; something you wanted to save for actual items. Just a badly designed system.
I think it kinda depends how you play and how 'plugged in' to the community you are. As a filthy casual going into PoE blind, the active gem system worked because I didn't know what I didn't have. So every so often I'd see a gem drop and I'd be thrilled to see it. Gear tends to just be + or - a few numbers, but a new gem could totally change how I played.Jandau said:
If you go in not knowing that you need this gem, that gem, and the other gem to be optimal, the gem system makes for some of the most rewarding drops I've ever seen in an ARPG.
I'll never understand the argument people make that the passive web in PoE is "padded out." Unless you want to go all D3 on the game and more or less eliminate any choice in what skills you're raising, those "padded out" +10 nodes are a perfect way to let any class spec in any direction, given the right path/spec through the tree. It really all makes sense when you think about what it actually does.
The people that hate d3...most of us, do not hate it for the auction house. I didn't use the stupid auction house...easy fix. What wasn't an easy fix was the borefest that was D3 compared to even vanilla D2 let alone the expansion.
What we (and I specifically) hated, was the lack of customization.
Some people have said you only have a few real choices in Path of Exile. They make that same statement about D2 as well when you compare D3 to it.
That is hogwash.
I played THousands of workable, fun builds in D2, and I have played hundreds of them already in Path of exile. Whole different..and quite fun characters played up from scratch. Never rushed or anything like that...I actually enjoyed playing the game. I didn't use other peoples builds, although I did post my own (I came up with the original hybrid kick/trap assassin build for instance that became quite popular).
In d2 I didn't have any incentive to restart fresh..and I would often take breaks for a year at a time, give all my stuff away, then start fresh again...because it was fun building up my equipment each time (ladder resets helped as well).
In PoE there are races and special events that help give you incentive to start from scratch. They add freaking new skills so often I have not been able to keep up with them (As far as making a character specializing on a skill), and the skill tree gives you a HUGE amount of variety and control. Even for any one general specialization (Say your going for a dual wield claw specialist) there are tons of different ways to build your character. First what defense do you go for? There are 3 choices....or none (or just very high hp and life leach..which you could call one), do you want to go for physical damage or elemental damage, or both. Do you want to include summons or totems...traps...or get a very high shield block (Guess that can count as a defense as well)....and do you want to add dodging/acrobatics...and spell block (ok so more then just 3 choices on the defense department).
All of those choices are made in the skill tree...but you still have to choose which actual gems to use as well (many of those choices will be based on the specs you made in your skill tree).
Then you have support gems, stat specialization, power charges (do you want to go with high crit chance....go with high endurance charges so you take very little damage....or go with frenzy charges for massive attack speed?).
There is also tons of options for equipment...much like d2 (and not like d3). The equipment you wear....actually can drastically change how your character plays. Unique equipment can alter a build drastically.
So yes, PoE...like D2 before it, offers a players nearly unlimited choices on how to play the game.
D3 on the other hand gives you basically a set, linear character to walk through the game. You can tweak it a tiny bit with equipment (amazingly how little difference you really get from eq...other then stronger eq (higher stats) is better...it makes almost no difference. Hopefully that is a bit better now at least), all you have at ALL is the runes you choose to modify your powers (and which powers you actually choose to use). That is it. There is pretty much no choice or reason to even play the game for me.
D3 is a dumbed down version of d2...because for some reason Blizzard figured it was too much effort for a new generation of players to actually create their own characters. The auction house....is available on many games that are/where very fun. Dungeons and dragons online had an auction house for instance...it didn't ruin the game for me for over a decade. Diablo 2 had online sites that sold equipment etc...did that ruin the game for me? Nope, never used them. An auction house in d3..even if it was easier to use...didn't ruin the game for me...because it was already ruined.
Path of exile isn't perfect. There are many things that could be improved on. It's amazing for a free game (And really free..you never have to spend a dime. I have....buying stash tabs a few times...but that is because the game is very worth it and I was happy to contribute...I certainly never had to). I have enjoyed PoE 10000000x more then D3. I wish I could go back in time and NOT buy d3 and send that money to PoE instead, cause that is what I have played.
Is D3 total crap? Nope...in fact, if it had been any other game...not part of the diablo series, I think it would have done fine. It would have probably been listed as a decent D2 clone.....just without as much replay value or pvp. The problem is that it was listed as D3...and it was a massive dissapointment to me. I got over 100 hours into the game and generally any game I spend $60 or so for and play over 100 hours I consider a good game.
I just can't do that for D3 because I was expecting so much more...which isn't fair, but I'm just being honest. I would not have bought the game if I knew what it was in advance. That to me is the definition of a bad game.
What we (and I specifically) hated, was the lack of customization.
Some people have said you only have a few real choices in Path of Exile. They make that same statement about D2 as well when you compare D3 to it.
That is hogwash.
I played THousands of workable, fun builds in D2, and I have played hundreds of them already in Path of exile. Whole different..and quite fun characters played up from scratch. Never rushed or anything like that...I actually enjoyed playing the game. I didn't use other peoples builds, although I did post my own (I came up with the original hybrid kick/trap assassin build for instance that became quite popular).
In d2 I didn't have any incentive to restart fresh..and I would often take breaks for a year at a time, give all my stuff away, then start fresh again...because it was fun building up my equipment each time (ladder resets helped as well).
In PoE there are races and special events that help give you incentive to start from scratch. They add freaking new skills so often I have not been able to keep up with them (As far as making a character specializing on a skill), and the skill tree gives you a HUGE amount of variety and control. Even for any one general specialization (Say your going for a dual wield claw specialist) there are tons of different ways to build your character. First what defense do you go for? There are 3 choices....or none (or just very high hp and life leach..which you could call one), do you want to go for physical damage or elemental damage, or both. Do you want to include summons or totems...traps...or get a very high shield block (Guess that can count as a defense as well)....and do you want to add dodging/acrobatics...and spell block (ok so more then just 3 choices on the defense department).
All of those choices are made in the skill tree...but you still have to choose which actual gems to use as well (many of those choices will be based on the specs you made in your skill tree).
Then you have support gems, stat specialization, power charges (do you want to go with high crit chance....go with high endurance charges so you take very little damage....or go with frenzy charges for massive attack speed?).
There is also tons of options for equipment...much like d2 (and not like d3). The equipment you wear....actually can drastically change how your character plays. Unique equipment can alter a build drastically.
So yes, PoE...like D2 before it, offers a players nearly unlimited choices on how to play the game.
D3 on the other hand gives you basically a set, linear character to walk through the game. You can tweak it a tiny bit with equipment (amazingly how little difference you really get from eq...other then stronger eq (higher stats) is better...it makes almost no difference. Hopefully that is a bit better now at least), all you have at ALL is the runes you choose to modify your powers (and which powers you actually choose to use). That is it. There is pretty much no choice or reason to even play the game for me.
D3 is a dumbed down version of d2...because for some reason Blizzard figured it was too much effort for a new generation of players to actually create their own characters. The auction house....is available on many games that are/where very fun. Dungeons and dragons online had an auction house for instance...it didn't ruin the game for me for over a decade. Diablo 2 had online sites that sold equipment etc...did that ruin the game for me? Nope, never used them. An auction house in d3..even if it was easier to use...didn't ruin the game for me...because it was already ruined.
Path of exile isn't perfect. There are many things that could be improved on. It's amazing for a free game (And really free..you never have to spend a dime. I have....buying stash tabs a few times...but that is because the game is very worth it and I was happy to contribute...I certainly never had to). I have enjoyed PoE 10000000x more then D3. I wish I could go back in time and NOT buy d3 and send that money to PoE instead, cause that is what I have played.
Is D3 total crap? Nope...in fact, if it had been any other game...not part of the diablo series, I think it would have done fine. It would have probably been listed as a decent D2 clone.....just without as much replay value or pvp. The problem is that it was listed as D3...and it was a massive dissapointment to me. I got over 100 hours into the game and generally any game I spend $60 or so for and play over 100 hours I consider a good game.
I just can't do that for D3 because I was expecting so much more...which isn't fair, but I'm just being honest. I would not have bought the game if I knew what it was in advance. That to me is the definition of a bad game.
So, what's with the Rainman tag at the bottom? Is Elliot or the guy with the glasses the Rain man?
That's just the thing, POE's customization isn't complicated at all. Pick the right passive stats for the skills you like to equip the most. The system is just needlessly convoluted just so the devs can say look how hardcore we made the game, now go by the strategy guide.weirdo8977 said:
These are good times to be a fan of ARPGs.
We have PoE to give that hardcore flavour. Extremely deep customisation that especially in the beginning forces you to go with what you got and make the best of it. A passive tree that really lets you decide what you want to do mixed with deep and complicated mechanics ("stun" for example is not just a % chance but a number of different stats mixed together). The aesthetic also gives this game a great feel. It is mindboggling that a team as small as the ones that made it, actually could make it.
Then we have Diablio 3. Newly refurbished this game is excellent. It gives you an easy way in an lets you try different buils and ideas. Every new item offers new ideas for builds. Do you want three wolves instead of one? How about a fireball with your Lashing Tail Kick? There is definite fun to be had. Enemies also ragdoll quite satisfyingly. The style is dark but invokes the feel of comics from dark horse.
And last but certainly not least we have Torchlight 2 in the old style. Skill trees let you unlock and upgrade the skills you want and a slew of possibilities open up. Weapons are very interesting and each one offers different possibilities, what with their signature weapontype abilities mixed with the most crazy combinations you could imagine. Cannons, axes, rifles, bows, wands, staves and more. All are in there and while some classes may wield them better than other, all of them can get in on the action. Bright colours make and cartoony style gives this game a more light-hearted feel. This style lets the artists really go crazy with fun and inventive designs and environments. Mixing steampunk with magitech is always a win in my book.
And then we got Grim Dawn on the way.
It is truly a good time to lover your ARPG.
We have PoE to give that hardcore flavour. Extremely deep customisation that especially in the beginning forces you to go with what you got and make the best of it. A passive tree that really lets you decide what you want to do mixed with deep and complicated mechanics ("stun" for example is not just a % chance but a number of different stats mixed together). The aesthetic also gives this game a great feel. It is mindboggling that a team as small as the ones that made it, actually could make it.
Then we have Diablio 3. Newly refurbished this game is excellent. It gives you an easy way in an lets you try different buils and ideas. Every new item offers new ideas for builds. Do you want three wolves instead of one? How about a fireball with your Lashing Tail Kick? There is definite fun to be had. Enemies also ragdoll quite satisfyingly. The style is dark but invokes the feel of comics from dark horse.
And last but certainly not least we have Torchlight 2 in the old style. Skill trees let you unlock and upgrade the skills you want and a slew of possibilities open up. Weapons are very interesting and each one offers different possibilities, what with their signature weapontype abilities mixed with the most crazy combinations you could imagine. Cannons, axes, rifles, bows, wands, staves and more. All are in there and while some classes may wield them better than other, all of them can get in on the action. Bright colours make and cartoony style gives this game a more light-hearted feel. This style lets the artists really go crazy with fun and inventive designs and environments. Mixing steampunk with magitech is always a win in my book.
And then we got Grim Dawn on the way.
It is truly a good time to lover your ARPG.
Get your bs friendly "can't we all get along?' speal out of here Jakob.
History demands to know who's best at getting us to click skeletons to death.
History demands to know who's best at getting us to click skeletons to death.
I'm going to throw a little curve ball here: Diablo is a good base product, but a lot of games have done its thing better. Path of Exile has a refreshing take on skilltrees and as it is free-to-play (and free-to-win), it takes the cake for overprized Diablo. But wait: one should not forget forementioned Torchlights and Titan Quest! Both of these enriched and enhanced the basic-Diablo formula and surpassed it.
I've been playing PoE for over a year now.
I've recently started D3 RoS, only getting in after the expansion was released.
The two games are fairly easy to compare in my opinion. Path of Exile is a very flawed implementation of a brilliant idea. D3 RoS is a brilliant implementation of a very simple idea.
PoE skill tree and gem systems are, in theory, absolutely brilliant and provide a degree of options and character customisability that I've not seen in any other aRPG I've played. The problem is that between a flawed networking architecture leading to massive desync, a rendering engine incapable of keeping up with the amount of particles present in party play and even some solo builds and an increasingly disappointing lack of balance make it so that most of of the options aren't really options. They're there and they're awesome as long as you don't actually choose them, if you do then nothing but frustration awaits.
D3 RoS doesn't have anywhere near the amount of options. Nowhere close. But you can pick whatever options are there and play the game and be happy. No networking failures await, your FPS won't suddenly have to be measured in SPF (seconds per frame) nor will you run into wall after wall just trying to progress through the game to a very basic level. I'm sure they're not all optimal, but they all work.
I'd still say, as of this moment, PoE has the greater potential but it's far from realised. Technical improvements and their balance team getting their stuff together would easily make it the superior game. Then again, from what I gather Blizzard isn't planning to make this the last D3 expansion so who knows what'll happen there?
I've recently started D3 RoS, only getting in after the expansion was released.
The two games are fairly easy to compare in my opinion. Path of Exile is a very flawed implementation of a brilliant idea. D3 RoS is a brilliant implementation of a very simple idea.
PoE skill tree and gem systems are, in theory, absolutely brilliant and provide a degree of options and character customisability that I've not seen in any other aRPG I've played. The problem is that between a flawed networking architecture leading to massive desync, a rendering engine incapable of keeping up with the amount of particles present in party play and even some solo builds and an increasingly disappointing lack of balance make it so that most of of the options aren't really options. They're there and they're awesome as long as you don't actually choose them, if you do then nothing but frustration awaits.
D3 RoS doesn't have anywhere near the amount of options. Nowhere close. But you can pick whatever options are there and play the game and be happy. No networking failures await, your FPS won't suddenly have to be measured in SPF (seconds per frame) nor will you run into wall after wall just trying to progress through the game to a very basic level. I'm sure they're not all optimal, but they all work.
I'd still say, as of this moment, PoE has the greater potential but it's far from realised. Technical improvements and their balance team getting their stuff together would easily make it the superior game. Then again, from what I gather Blizzard isn't planning to make this the last D3 expansion so who knows what'll happen there?
