Different twist on old "console controller vs mouse+keyboard" argument

[Tanis]

As much of a PC game as I am, sometimes it's better to use a controller.

 

[DazZ.]

Also, I have trouble believing you couldn't easily adapt a mouse input type to just about any game that's designed to be played with either a controller or just a keyboard or digital pad

I'm sure it's a very simple fix, I was just saying games don't have this option, which is why you can't just whack a mouse in the consoles USB port.

Well, if you want to get technical, once upon a time, it was quite usual to play Doom with just the keyboard, so it's not like it can't be done even simpler.

I still play Wolfenstein with just the keyboard, but that was 2d aiming. Doom was on release as well I'm fairly certain of... I can't remember aiming up and down until I played a modded version anyway.

 

[TheTurtleMan]

Honestly, even as I am a console gamer, given an oppertunity of a game cross platforming pc and consoles, the pc would probably always come out on top. There's a few reasons for this one being that mouse aiming is naturally easier to use than analog. Another factor would be differences in hardware. PC's can have the most expensive, biggest, and highest quality software available while console gamers are forced to compete on an equal playing field. Not to belittle pc gaming but I always felt console gaming was based more on skill than that of computers. Sorry if I went off into an unintentional console vs. pc rant.

 

[Tibike77]

I still play Wolfenstein with just the keyboard, but that was 2d aiming. Doom was on release as well I'm fairly certain of... I can't remember aiming up and down until I played a modded version anyway.

As an older player of Descent, I can assure you unassisted 6-axis movement//aiming is also quite viable with just the keyboard.
Typical control scheme for me (let's see if I remember, it's been a while) was something like this...
the 4 arrows -> aiming (rotate ship up/down/left/right) ;
Delete+PageDown - rotate ship counterclockwise/clockwise ;
A+Z -> move ship forward/backward ;
Q+W - move ship ("strafe") left/right ;
S+X - strafe up/down ;
Space (or CTRL?) - fire gun ; Enter (or Space?) - fire missile.

 

[RootBrewski]

The January 2006 issue of PC GAMER(US) has an article where they play Halo on the pc 2v2 with 2 guys using gamepad and the others M+K. When they turned off aim assist final score was 50-24 in favor of the M+K.

That brings us back to the answer I gave a few posts above to the people suggesting precisely such a test.

While it might look like a resounding argument in favour of M&Kb, you're playing a different version of the game, so it's not exactly a completely fair assessment.

Also, unless those two people using the gamepads were not usual XBox Halo players, but regular PC Halo players that were given gamepads instead of their usual M&Kb controllers, that's not exactly fair either. It's like having used a QWERTY keyboard your whole life, then having somebody give you a DVORAK keyboard and immediately clocking your typing speed then concluding DVORAK is worse... obviously unfair.

So I can only repeat myself : for the test to be conclusive, the players have to use the software and hardware they're used to play on (and have reasonable experience on it), the features present like autoaim have to be present (although disableable on demand) in all versions, and they have to compete in the same server-side environment.

I think that I may not have explained myself properly.
I'm suggesting that we get 2 pcs + 1 console controller + 1 pc gamer + 1 console gamer = fairly reasonable test
To clarify both gamers are on pcs but the only variables are control system and skillset or farmilliarity with said controllers.
For the purpose of this experiment we're assuming that they've both played halo before, they're exactly as good at the game as each other, and that there are no differences in gameplay between pc & console

Sorry, missed that post when I posted the above.
Well, that would eliminate HALF of the problem, the familiarity with the input device.
You still have the problem of the console user playing in a slightly unusual environment to him (or with some features different from what he's used to). That is, unless there is some option I am not aware of where you can actually tweak the PC version to react//feel identical to the XBox version.

I should have specified that better, my bad. The experiment was done between 2 editors of PC Gamer using the mouse and keyboard and 2 editors of Official Xbox Magazine using the gamepad. In the article they even say that there were some issues getting the gamepad to work properly and that the ratio would have been closer than 50-24.

 

[Tibike77]

Heh, from a different forum (EVE-Online, where some people were complaining about DUST being only developed for consoles) where my interest about this question was first sparked comes a sort-of answer posted by somebody else just a few moments ago...
http://technologizer.com/2010/07/22/microsoft-mightve-killed-xbox-360-vs-pc-gaming/

Ouch ?

"He cites ?reliable sources? who say Microsoft was working on a way for PC gamers and Xbox 360 gamers to play together, but problems arose during testing. Mediocre PC gamers were able to wipe the floor with even the best console players, because the PC?s mouse-and-keyboard combination was so precise."

 

[Fire Daemon]

I think it would really depend on the game and the gametype within that game. Using Halo 2 for an example as it was mentioned above, A K&M combo will greatly out perform a controller in a game of SWAT which is based on quick and precise aiming for the head but in a large team based game like CTF where the use of vehicles is expected and required and there is a more emphasis on teamwork than individual skill I think things might even out a bit. I'm pretty sure that is where the future for cross platform games lies.

I also wonder how good the two editors for the console side where, in the article given above. Aiming in Halo 2 is an important factor but it usually ends up easier to take off more health with a beat down or a grenade. I'd like to actually know what happened in that game to see in the M&KB was the reason for victory or if it was something else.

 

[DazZ.]

I still play Wolfenstein with just the keyboard, but that was 2d aiming. Doom was on release as well I'm fairly certain of... I can't remember aiming up and down until I played a modded version anyway.

As an older player of Descent, I can assure you unassisted 6-axis movement//aiming is also quite viable with just the keyboard.
Typical control scheme for me (let's see if I remember, it's been a while) was something like this...
the 4 arrows -> aiming (rotate ship up/down/left/right) ;
Delete+PageDown - rotate ship counterclockwise/clockwise ;
A+Z -> move ship forward/backward ;
Q+W - move ship ("strafe") left/right ;
S+X - strafe up/down ;
Space (or CTRL?) - fire gun ; Enter (or Space?) - fire missile.

Obviously it's doable, seeing as we have a feckload of buttons on a keyboard, doesn't mean it's effective.

 

[Aerodyamic]

I still play Wolfenstein with just the keyboard, but that was 2d aiming. Doom was on release as well I'm fairly certain of... I can't remember aiming up and down until I played a modded version anyway.

As an older player of Descent, I can assure you unassisted 6-axis movement//aiming is also quite viable with just the keyboard.
Typical control scheme for me (let's see if I remember, it's been a while) was something like this...
the 4 arrows -> aiming (rotate ship up/down/left/right) ;
Delete+PageDown - rotate ship counterclockwise/clockwise ;
A+Z -> move ship forward/backward ;
Q+W - move ship ("strafe") left/right ;
S+X - strafe up/down ;
Space (or CTRL?) - fire gun ; Enter (or Space?) - fire missile.

Ahhh... Descent; how stomach churning you were, and spatially-clumsy you made me feel, for about 20 minutes, until I realized I wasn't actually falling.

 

[Frequen-Z]

Shadowrun For Xbox 360

It failed miserably.

Man I loved that game.

UT3 for consoles had keyboard + mouse support.

 

[Unrulyhandbag]

My guess at this is the games aren't made for K+B, so the mouse movement would be awful. With mice you snap to shots, and with controllers you drag it over. Seeing as the game is coded for stick input when you put in left with a mouse it wouldn't be the same speed as it would be with a real mouse, it would have the slow drag effect of a analogue stick because that's the input the software is made to take.

Well, if you want to get technical, once upon a time, it was quite usual to play Doom with just the keyboard, so it's not like it can't be done even simpler.
Also, I have trouble believing you couldn't easily adapt a mouse input type to just about any game that's designed to be played with either a controller or just a keyboard or digital pad, as long as the game doesn't require too much finesse of too many different control axes -- that is, as long as it's just a "point view at something" thing, transitioning between keyboard, controller or mouse control as primary input (with no additional tweaks) should not be such a big deal, software-wise.

Anyway...

The big debate was always about "what's better" between a console controller and a keyboard+mouse, with the console player debate angle being that they would have no problems competing in fast-paced games (like 1st/3rd person shooters) with a PC player.
If you're starting to argue that the mouse+keyboard input has to be limited compared to what it can do to give a console controller a fair fight, that automatically implies a loss on the original argument.

He's right though, PS3 supports mouse and keyboard in games so long as the game has the drivers enabled.

Result?

Unreal tournament on PS3 was a joke with a keyboard and mouse, the character movement is slower and camera movement is slower than on the PC version.
You have all that precision but you literally can't move the game camera. Added to that Auto-aim keeps messing with your actual aim and there's no dodging like the PC version because its hard to keep tapping a stick to the side twice quick enough and no crouch because they ran out of buttons. The worst thing? after a while people set their multiplayer server to deny keyboard and mouse support so it's almost impossible to join a running game. They consider it unfair to use them.

In all It's a very different beast to the PC version where twitch reactions are king in the face of 18.6Mph player characters sprinting around. (8.8 metres per second is crazy fast) there's no help in aiming because it's not needed and you have a wealth of extra movement options.

There's a reason, why when Quake came out, it was quickly discovered that you'd have to be daft to play it with a joy-pad in multiplayer. Even though it had been the preferred way of playing doom and most previous action games it just wasn't suitable for this one. Hell, even standard keyboard looking was preferred.

 

[mb16]

Halo 2 PC was on the console and PC. Console players were givin the sticky-aim that consoles have to help them compete. I don't know how it turned out, though.

aiming with a mouse is easier as its just point and click while on the console you have to drag it. or something like that

 

[Outright Villainy]

I think analogue also have a disadvantage since they need acceleration to be any way effective; it's generally accepted that it fecks up any chance of gettting a really good aim long term. You build muscle memory with 1:1 movement of mouse (assuming acceleration is disabled of course) I've been a console shooter for about 10 years, in about 6 months of mouse play I was about 10 times better than before. Hardly conclusive, but still disparaging.

Sticks are way better for driving and platform games though. I'd like to see someone try F-zero Gx on a keyboard...

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It's been mentioned but Q3A came out on Dreamcast and could be played against PC gamers. They didn't do too well with controllers which is one of the reasons it hasn't been tried again without balancing the game a lot to give k/b mouse users a big handicap.