That's fine, but I personally get a lot out of it. What I experience on acid ("acid" is a euphemism for "chocolate milk", mods) is a pleasurable experience that is so alien to anything else that you can naturally feel that I would consider it a shame not to experience it. It don't *need* to do it again, but much like a delicious strawberry pavlova,I would certainly like to try it again.
nightmare_gorilla said:
I find myself amid the strangest company in that I do no drugs and don't drink at all but there's not a religious aspect to it nor do I abstain due to excessive use in the past, I just don't dig it. beer, pot, cigarettes, tried them, don't like them. it's super weird to try and explain to people that you don't drink just because you prefer the taste of soda and don't really enjoy getting hammered. so some of my judging is more counter judgment... "what you don't drink? come on just have one don't be a weirdo!".
Funnily, I don't drink alcohol either and, like you, it's because I just don't dig it. People give me strange looks and comments about but I can handle that, and none of my friends bother me about it.
nightmare_gorilla said:
but in regards to the illegal kinds of drugs I just think it's kind of lame, we have video games, we have movies, we have comic books, and stand up comedy.
I don't get the "why would you do X when we have Y" argument when it comes to comparing drugs with other hobbies. I have many hobbies - way more than most - it's just that doing drugs happens to be one of them. We all have our preferences and I don't see why your suggestions are superior to mine. I love video games, I love dancing, I love gymnastics, I love literature, I love drugs. None of those precludes the other.
nightmare_gorilla said:
We have so much stuff to entertain us and your preference is to alter your brain chemistry so your body is kind of tricked into having a good time?
Why is it "tricking" your brain? You transiently alter your brain chemistry when you eat chocolate, dance, masturbate, watch TV, drink coffee, go running etc. You're not "tricking" your brain any more than when you engage in any of those activities; the difference is those activities are less laden with negative language in their descriptions. the good time I have from eating in a restaurant, cuddling, swimming, or taking drugs are all different types of "having a good time".
nightmare_gorilla said:
I look at it as a crutch in the sense that some people seem to need drugs to have a good time or they seem to think drugs will magically improve anything they are doing. and I think that's kind of weak.
Why do you assume we *need* drugs any more than I *need* a strawberry pavlova? I love a good strawberry pavlova. It might enhance my meal when I go out for dinner. You could call that a magical improvement. I just don't see why enjoying drugs recreationally is seen as a crutch, but enjoying a strawberry pavlova (seriously, so good!) is not.
A lot of people get into drugs because of child abuse or numerous other factors including poverty and it then it turns into an addiction. Thinking less of someone because they have a serious illness is wrong. Its acceptable to think this way of alcoholics and drug addicts but if someone is overweight due to a food addiction (which like any addiction is pretty serious and may have other mental health issues attached to it) you cant look down on them because they are fat
Russell Brand has some good videos on this subject on youtube. He's been clean for over a decade now and he is pretty candid about his experience as a heroin addict.
Poison yourself all you want to a very early grave. Doesn't bother me as its your choice, why would I care what you do to yourself? Especially if I barely know you.
The use of "Poison yourself" is heavily laden in judgement because it implies wilful or reckless self-destruction. The fact is though that I'm the healthiest person I know despite having suffered from a usually fatal disease as a teenager. I'm on several sports teams, I volunteer as a gymnastics coach, and I eat very quite healthily, the odd pizza or strawberry pavlova binge notwithstanding. Not caring whether I harm myself is not the same as not judging. Assuming that people who use drugs are self-destructive is judgement.
michael87cn said:
What does annoy me is people that tell others they do drugs.
I DRINK SODA! ... Good for you? It's extremely obvious you want attention/respect if you have to tell people you do something... especially strangers. VERY RARELY are drugs relevant, to anything, to any subject matter. People just like to brag that they are doing something illegal. It must add some stupid thrill to the act or something.
These are dumb people. The problem with any activity or interest that is unconventional is that the loudest and most conspicuous proponents are unfortunately the most stupid. "Man, I'm so high right now" is just a stupid thing to say, but mentioning or discussing drug use can absolutely be relevant. This thread, for example, is quite interesting because it gets people talking. I don't just liberally drop "I take drugs" into a conversation, but I don't make pains to hide it any more than I would with my other hobbies. I definitely hid it from my former employers because they didn't look upon that activity too favourably, the fascists
One of the nicest, most creative people I knew died directly because of drugs while he was still in high school.
The police report suggested an overdose; his closest friends suspected it was bad drugs.
(Given their habits, I strongly suspect the latter)
Unexpected death aside...
Then there's the potheads, smoker-tokers...I hate smoke.
Cigarette, cigar, blunts, my body has a near allergic reaction to it and has since I was a little kid.
I do what I can to let folks light up in peace and make minimal/nil fuss where I can, but just because I tolerate something doesn't mean I like it.
The people on the hard stuff?
OK, I grew up in Chicagoland in the 90s. What I learned is that if you aren't using or dealing, you stay the fuck away from those who are. It's a very simple relationship for those of us without a badge.
That's fine, but I personally get a lot out of it. What I experience on acid ("acid" is a euphemism for "chocolate milk", mods) is a pleasurable experience that is so alien to anything else that you can naturally feel that I would consider it a shame not to experience it. It don't *need* to do it again, but much like a delicious strawberry pavlova,I would certainly like to try it again.
Funnily, I don't drink alcohol either and, like you, it's because I just don't dig it. People give me strange looks and comments about but I can handle that, and none of my friends bother me about it.
I don't get the "why would you do X when we have Y" argument when it comes to comparing drugs with other hobbies. I have many hobbies - way more than most - it's just that doing drugs happens to be one of them. We all have our preferences and I don't see why your suggestions are superior to mine. I love video games, I love dancing, I love gymnastics, I love literature, I love drugs. None of those precludes the other.
Why is it "tricking" your brain? You transiently alter your brain chemistry when you eat chocolate, dance, masturbate, watch TV, drink coffee, go running etc. You're not "tricking" your brain any more than when you engage in any of those activities; the difference is those activities are less laden with negative language in their descriptions. the good time I have from eating in a restaurant, cuddling, swimming, or taking drugs are all different types of "having a good time".
Why do you assume we *need* drugs any more than I *need* a strawberry pavlova? I love a good strawberry pavlova. It might enhance my meal when I go out for dinner. You could call that a magical improvement. I just don't see why enjoying drugs recreationally is seen as a crutch, but enjoying a strawberry pavlova (seriously, so good!) is not.
Perhaps I should qualify my statements with this, a lot of my friends are current or past drug users and as such I've met a few different types. a friend of mine went through a bad divorce and started going to raves all the time and dropping a lot of acid. to be fair I don't necessarily judge the behavior itself so much as what the behavior tends to enable. a lot of the music acid/lsd/mdma users listen to is just god awful and listening to the explanation "yeah but when you're tripping balls it's amazing!!!" sums up my side of it rather well. I don't like anything you need to be altered to enjoy. for example I don't begrudge the fact that james franco and seth rogan are HUGE potheads I begrudge the fact that if you're not a pothead their movies are truly and utterly shit. it's the same reaction I have when I tell people I don't like going to parties and they say
"you just need to get drunk enough to enjoy it."
"but I don't drink I don't like the taste or having to pee every three minutes."
"You don't drink it for the taste and don't pop the cork man."
like sitting back watching people drink something they don't like so they can enjoy something they don't in order to maybe have sloppy drunken sex with people they don't know and probably wouldn't like sober and i'm the idiot for not seeing the appeal? I have that same sentiment for other drugs. I can understand recreational use and maybe judge isn't the right word but for those people out there who only enjoy certain things when they're high I think are a little silly.
I am libertarian in the truest sense so if you want to not bother anybody and get baked out of your gourd good for you but if you act like an ass around me because you're high I generally just think you're an ass not that you're an ass when your high. some of my older friends I don't see much anymore are the kind of people who get high and turn into total assholes so I don't want to be around them much. and some members of my own family turn into colossal dicks when they're drunk but still do it because "well that's what's fun." which has kind of painted my image of all drug users.
I guess saying I prejudge isn't accurate i'll just say this I have no philosophical issues with recreational drugs, I am not about to risk getting arrested so I don't like being around them under certain circumstances. but my personal experiences with drug users are more often negative than positive so I tend to expect that.
I don't see how this is even a point. The fact that my breaking the law bothers other people is completely irrelevant to me. All "my character's" drugs are ethically sourced, so why I should care that other people are bothered when I break the law by consuming drugs is beyond me. I see it as a non-argument.
But it comes down to the reasoning. Your generally asking if people harbor prejudices against people who use drugs. Using said drugs is illegal, and a lot of people will look down those who break the law. It doesn't really matter if it bothers you or not, its their reasoning behind it, which leads to their reactions.
CrystalViolet said:
I've had room mates like that. It was student accommodation so I didn't choose my room mates. The good thing about that was that I was in a position to complain about the mess in the place without losing my deposit. It's your choice and mine not to associate with assholes of any persuasion, drugs or no drugs. I don't hang out with "stoners" so this isn't an issue for me.
Believe me that was the breaking point and words were given, leading to one moving out. I'm aware that my view is very much skewed, and could well be changed with a lot of research, but as i rarely have contact with people who use drugs now its not high on my list of things to look into. (Just to note, not due to me not approving of people taking drugs, just moving on in life and circles of friends, and not associating with assholes as you so eloquently put )
CrystalViolet said:
I'm actually a girl. Don't let my crude language fool you, I'm really quite feminine I get what you're saying but I believe the "general scale" argument is a dangerous one to make. You could replace "drug users" with "black people", "gay people", "the Greeks", or "the working class" and it would be far more sinister. I'm not saying it's a perfect comparison but it's not far off since there's a great diversity in the type of people who take drugs. Every stoner who claims that cannabis cures cancer or meth addict who stabs a baby ruins the image for the rest of us. The more grounded among us are unfortunately the less conspicuous.
Haha, my bad! Should of checked on the profile i guess, there's a "Girls on the internet" joke in there somewhere but I wont lower the tone any further!
I guess I have to agree with you on your last point, and again put my opinion down to personal flaws and not doing any research rather than anything else. The correct view to take as you suggest would not to brand a whole group of people due to the negative associations I've experienced, and I'm aware of that. However actually doing so is a lot harder than it may seem!
I should preface with the honest contradiction and hypocrisy that I am teetotal (or straight edge might be the more "modern" term), but I find no fault in individuals who smoke tobacco or drink coffee in excess and yet I find myself, for reasons both conscious and unconscious, appalled by drug use in the immediacy of my person and relations, as well as on a more social and cultural level.
On a selfish and personal level born from no philosophy, I simply find the smell of alcohol repellent. Most other drugs that I've the (mis)fortune to smell have also left me unsettled.
On "soft drugs," ala alcohol, I've always hated its imposition in life. Toasting, sacrifice, drinking parties with colleagues and peers. Its [perceived] necessity within some cultures I understand; the idea that a drunk man cannot lose face, that all uttered over the bar is in the confidence of the bottle and thus inadmissible and unheard at work. However I find the very idea of self debasement and unselfing in that manner distasteful. Perhaps growing up in a prefecture that held the national standard for alcohol consumption plays some part (it either wins you or repels you), but I cannot seem to make peace with the idea of drinking. Fortunately I've never really been in a position where, to my face at least, there's been any offence given or taken with regards to this point
Towards illegal narcotics, regardless of their history, use and conception, I've feel disgust wrought with pity. I don't hate the people that use and consume them, mostly*, but I do feel a sense of irritable contempt towards the system that produces and releases them, as well as frustration towards the society that, ultimately, fosters their consumption, use and - possible - abuse. Not all people who consume narcotics do so in a dangerous excess, perhaps in that fact lies an awkward truth about drug use in and of itself, nor do all people who use narcotics do so for coping or unselfing purposes. Some people simply seek to "enhance" an experience, and therein is born a deep fascination with us as a species; how we can become bored or dissatisfied with something that is, by our own interpretation (mostly) enjoyable.
For use for enjoyment's sake, not for enhancement or escape; I feel like there is a dangerous practice there, reflected in other "legal"/non-illegal activities as well. A part of maturity is knowing the risks and dangers in life and knowing when to brave them for a greater good. In the case of personal enjoyment however, I feel that we should not risk damaging or compromising ourselves lest we impair our ability to help to achieve a communal greater good. Boring though it may be, I think we're beholden to others to ensure some degree of physical, biological-chemical-psychological well being. Not everyone naturally agrees with such a point, and are free to do so! As such I can only hope such "dangers" are as safe as they can be, if that is not stupid (though I believe that youtube clip with a surprisingly eloquent Russel Brand made mention of the point)
In cases of illegal narcotic production and consumption, where drug use is not regulated and risk of abuse and mismanagement of addiction and complications seem rife, I think drug consumption is a great danger. Where it is legal, such as Portugal, and so long as the distribution is regulated and the consumption is done in moderation and not abused, while I may disagree with the individual for risking an aspect of themselves (neuro-biochemically speaking), I cannot say that I would be thinking as poorly of the act as I would in an environment where clandestine and illegal consumption is taking place.
Uh, to surmise that point - I think where drugs are "illegal" their consumption feeds a dangerous industry and runs a gambit of risks and complications. Where it is legal I still think it is a danger, personal abuse (same with alcohol and what have you) but so long as it is legal, I will think of it as something like base jumping - ideally it's risky and possibly not the safest or smartest thing to be doing, but so long as no harm is done. In both cases there exists the risk of crippling oneself, but so long as the harm is managed accordingly, I cannot hate or condemn, I can only tut.
When it comes to coping I think they are a terrible choice (who doesn't!) and believe counselling is always preferable. (There's a whole bitter circle, idea of perceived helplessness and just general apathy and foresight that darkens this issue, but I don't think anyone here would say "shooting up to forget" is the best course of action [same with "drink to forget" or "pump to forget" etc]).
On a less "high bordering pretentious" platform and a simple, to me at least, harrowing observation by way of anecdote;
In my short life on this planet, and the shorter amount of time as a sexually aware being, I've found myself horrified by the degree of nihilistic fatalism that seems to so casually engulf subsections of society where the avenues of drugs and sex merge. For our final project for our degree (psychology - whoo!) a friend and I decided to look into the cultural perception and practice of sex (really - so say our friends - it was an excuse to trawl select adult interest websites in the name of "science," but hey...)
To try and make a long story short - repeat exchanges with a few persons ended up leading us into an interesting site that, in essence, was anti-latex (and sheepskin for you allergic fellows). Now there's nothing really new or surprising in a sex site being host to skiers and tina slammers, nor the readiness of its patrons to swap baggies and needles for fluids, but what grabbed me were the options of the website - requiring a profile for access - with questions such as "drug use" having answers ranging from "Hell no" to "hell yeah," and health status having the possible answer "don't care."
"Decadent complacency of the western first world," or some such you may say - and I might agree - but what really screwed with me was tracking a profile (and chatting with the person) who (19yo, apparently) went from "Clean & Negative" and "Hell No" to "Positive" and "Hell yeah" in the span of two semesters. Skeptically I assumed the person was just acting nice for appearances, but instead it was a matter of "why the hell not" getting the better and them developing a liking for needles and the like.
It wasn't a case of the profile being a "bug chaser" or any of the sort, rather they just found that they liked the get high and couldn't care less how they managed it. Asked them if they regretted their decision (lifelong, oft fatal disease just for a "high"), got a flat "nope, lol," for an answer. Asked them if they cared about their partners, another "nope lol".
I know I've wandered into general sex territory rather than just drugs outright, but the mixing of the two, the idea of "enhancement and enjoyment" to such a degree that the individual would essentially abandon a key part of themselves and risk their life, not just longterm by way of neurophysiological risks... it's terrible. The person may have been so inclined before they started using, the very fact they were on such a site may suggest some heightened thrill seeking or some such, but damn if it didn't seem like they were on a dark road.
This is not to say in any way or form that drugs and sex are dependent or synonymous, only that, from what we saw, that when the two collided it seemed to be in a violent excess that produced such a terrible (dare say selfish) sense of abandon and indulgence. This is hardly anything new, and stereotypes abound of the "pnp culture," "ice queens" and the like... but the general "screw it. screw 'em" attitude scares the hell out of me.
And when I think of drugs, legal or otherwise, I think of this kind of madness that its capable of. I know it's a minority and there are always other factors, but still it seems at times one just can't shake a feeling.
I cannot find myself capable of condoning drug use, legal or illegal. However if history and modern thought is anything to go by, I can at least hope that is used sanely, well as sanely as it can be, it is not abused, its production and consumption regulated. Illegal narcotics feed a dark beast, but legal still sees the potential for much sorrow and danger. But, so many things we enjoy can kill us, wishing it were otherwise doesn't change much. Some people just aren't content with vanilla for a lifetime.
My reasons might not be well thought out, properly coherent, polite or what have you, but here's my answer.
Just realized how late it is (or early haha!) Sorry this is probably one long ramble. If it doesn't make sense, please yell at me - or throw amyl nitrite in my face, apparently it burns something fierce
The whole thing is more of a spectrum rather than a simple, arbitrary barrier between "right/okay" and "wrong/not okay".
I know plenty of people who can't enjoy their life if they go too long without weed, even though most people will swear up and down that it's totally not addictive or destructive.
Likewise, I've known several people who occasionally shoot up heroin and snort coke, yet function just fine without them and don't appear to have any obvious signs of dependency.
Of course, "hardcore" drugs are more LIKELY to fuck you up, but from my experience as a witness to just about everything, the biggest single factor seems to be individual tolerance and personality over the addictiveness or destructiveness of the drug itself (again, not to downplay the significance of that).
I don't judge people negatively for experimenting or adequately adapting to drugs - I only shy away from them when it becomes a bad habit, which, unfortunately, by their very nature, drugs tend to easily risk becoming.
Generally the people who take drugs(and this especially includes alcohol and cigarettes) are the kind of people I don't like. So yeah, I'm prejudiced. But once I know someone, I don't really care; That's just the thing with prejudices, it's fine to have them, as long as you're willing to lay them aside once you have more information about someone.
Anyway, this thread is probably not a good idea, because the whole issue with prejudice against drug users is that people judge before they know more. So asking people what they think about drug use, isn't as useful as just telling people what different kinds of drugs there are and what effects they have.
As for acid, I'm not an expert on drugs but I'm pretty sure it's safer to smoke weed than doing acid. I guess it depends on the acid we talk about. The one I've seen is the stuff you put on your thong and it burns you so intense you get high. Maybe that's another drug, I'm not sure.
"Acid" usually refers to LSD. It's probably the least toxic drug available because it works at such low doses and has such a crazily favourable dose-toxicity ratio. It's also not addictive and there are no casualties attributed to it. You do normally put it on your tongue but it doesn't burn you at all. A lot of street dealers sell other more dangerous drugs and claim it's LSD, but that's what happens when there's no legal regulation.
Ravesy said:
But it comes down to the reasoning. Your generally asking if people harbor prejudices against people who use drugs. Using said drugs is illegal, and a lot of people will look down those who break the law. It doesn't really matter if it bothers you or not, its their reasoning behind it, which leads to their reactions.
I, sorry, I misunderstood you! I thought you were saying that's a reason not to take, not why people might have prejudices. My bad! That is a good answer, but I'm more interested in hearing everyone's individual opinions, so whether or not you personally prejudge because you have an issue with the law-breaking.
Ravesy said:
Believe me that was the breaking point and words were given, leading to one moving out. I'm aware that my view is very much skewed, and could well be changed with a lot of research, but as i rarely have contact with people who use drugs now its not high on my list of things to look into. (Just to note, not due to me not approving of people taking drugs, just moving on in life and circles of friends, and not associating with assholes as you so eloquently put )
Of course! I'm not asking people to justify their prejudices, I'm just interested to hear about them and discuss them. It's nice to hear that you're open to dialogue about it. My problem is that most people aren't, so they assume I'm stupid for taking drugs. Luckily, by the time someone finds out that I use drugs (by "drugs" I mean "biscuits") they've already figured out whether or not I'm an idiot
Ravesy said:
Haha, my bad! Should of checked on the profile i guess, there's a "Girls on the internet" joke in there somewhere but I wont lower the tone any further!
No problem, I find that using a gender-neutral name and profile pic lets me be taken more seriously
Ravesy said:
I guess I have to agree with you on your last point, and again put my opinion down to personal flaws and not doing any research rather than anything else. The correct view to take as you suggest would not to brand a whole group of people due to the negative associations I've experienced, and I'm aware of that. However actually doing so is a lot harder than it may seem!
No, no, I fully get you. I went through a straight edge phase and had a slightly negative view of everyone who took drugs or drank alcohol. As you can tell, I changed my mind
Well, yeah. If you smoke crack or crystal meth, I really don't want you around my child, let alone driving their school bus. I'm probably not going to enjoy being around you while you're high.
If your use of your drug of choice is strictly recreational and I'd never have reason to know you were using it, keep it that way and chances are I won't have a problem with you.
Otherwise, well... There are some people who drink alcohol or smoke marijuana and just become mellow and sociable; others become obnoxious or start finding everything riotously funny. I reserve the right to take that on a case by case basis.
Well. Sometimes. If it's those pot taking people who start becoming absolute fools because "OMG GUUYYYYZZZ I'M HIIIGGHHH! LOOK AT ME BEING HIGH, ISN'T IT THE FUNNIEST THING EVA BECOZ HIIIGGGHHHHHHH AND WEEEEEED" then yes. I have a prejudice and would like nothing more than to do this to them:
Otherwise... I don't know. I won't have a prejudice against them but I'll probably keep them at arm's length. I don't know. I find it a tricky thing. On the one hand it's their body and they can do what they like. But when someone gets addicted and when it gets bad, having seen the effect that has on that person's family, especially when it's a loving, kind family, then I kind of think "why... just... jesus christ...". On the other, my dad took many different kinds of drug. He told me the effects of each and every one of them and why it's not really a good thing and how his life changed for the better when he stopped taking them. That stuck with me through my life and so I've never touched a drug.
On "soft drugs," ala alcohol, I've always hated its imposition in life. Toasting, sacrifice, drinking parties with colleagues and peers. Its [perceived] necessity within some cultures I understand; the idea that a drunk man cannot lose face, that all uttered over the bar is in the confidence of the bottle and thus inadmissible and unheard at work. However I find the very idea of self debasement and unselfing in that manner distasteful. Perhaps growing up in a prefecture that held the national standard for alcohol consumption plays some part (it either wins you or repels you), but I cannot seem to make peace with the idea of drinking. Fortunately I've never really been in a position where, to my face at least, there's been any offence given or taken with regards to this point
I personally have an issue with socially enforced norms in general, but the rituals surrounding alcohol particularly piss me off on many levels. I can't understand why it's acceptable to become inebriated to the point of throwing up, but tripping on acid in my own room for a few hours is somehow wrong. I also hate it when people hear that I don't drink alcohol and see it as a challenge. I've lived in many countries with a "drinking culture" and it's amazing how similarly ingrained it is. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against people getting drunk; my issue is with the negative appraisal of my getting stoned within a culture where getting drunk is not only acceptable but in many cases exalted.
Cal Shackleford said:
Towards illegal narcotics, regardless of their history, use and conception, I've feel disgust wrought with pity. I don't hate the people that use and consume them, mostly*, but I do feel a sense of irritable contempt towards the system that produces and releases them, as well as frustration towards the society that, ultimately, fosters their consumption, use and - possible - abuse. Not all people who consume narcotics do so in a dangerous excess, perhaps in that fact lies an awkward truth about drug use in and of itself, nor do all people who use narcotics do so for coping or unselfing purposes. Some people simply seek to "enhance" an experience, and therein is born a deep fascination with us as a species; how we can become bored or dissatisfied with something that is, by our own interpretation (mostly) enjoyable.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you might be better served keeping your posts short and sweet. Needlessly verbose meandering tends to lose people's interest halfway through reading :/
But anyway... I don't know why your issue is with a society that cultivates drug use as opposed to a society that vilifies at irrational degrees. Were drugs to be legal, regulated, and freely available we would see far more responsible faces for the hobby and far fewer stories of addiction and abuse. I'm not saying it would happen instantly; the vestiges of the old codger generation would need to die out, but attitudes would certainly change over time, as would the behaviour.
Cal Shackleford said:
In the case of personal enjoyment however, I feel that we should not risk damaging or compromising ourselves lest we impair our ability to help to achieve a communal greater good.
I and many people like me take great pains to ensure that the risk is minimised as much as possible. I wouldn't take cocaine, for example, because the effects are unpredictable and the sources unethical. When an impressionable teenager smokes a joint, he's taking a massive risk. I advocate for responsible drug use, which means employing the safest practices.
Cal Shackleford said:
Boring though it may be, I think we're beholden to others to ensure some degree of physical, biological-chemical-psychological well being.
For one, I can't see why one couldn't maintain such a well-being whilst still using drugs. I may not be able to drive while tripping on acid but I have no doubt that I would usually be the most capable of helping someone in a medical emergency, for example. Another point is that I disagree with you that we have some sort of societal obligation to be healthy. I personally want to be healthy and put a lot of effort into maintaining my health, but I believe that everyone should be entitled to pursue self destruction should they be doing so in sound mind.
Cal Shackleford said:
In cases of illegal narcotic production and consumption, where drug use is not regulated and risk of abuse and mismanagement of addiction and complications seem rife, I think drug consumption is a great danger. Where it is legal, such as Portugal, and so long as the distribution is regulated and the consumption is done in moderation and not abused, while I may disagree with the individual for risking an aspect of themselves (neuro-biochemically speaking), I cannot say that I would be thinking as poorly of the act as I would in an environment where clandestine and illegal consumption is taking place.
I mentioned in a few of my posts earlier that not a single penny of mine goes to dealers or shady characters, not because I'm worried about the legality, but because I feel very strongly about ethical sourcing. I really couldn't give an ant's shadow of a fuck about the legality of the consumption. Well, that's not true; I'm angry about the fact that it's illegal, but I don't feel a morsel of guilt about breaking the law in this case. As for the neurobiology of it, I am far more informed than the vast, vast majority of the population when it comes to these matters, and I've made a judgement that cannabis and LSD are perfectly safe when taken occasionally. The most dangerous drug I've ever taken was opium, but I've used it only twice. Well, that's not true, strictly speaking, because I was given morphine, but in my defence, I did have cancer.
Cal Shackleford said:
hen it comes to coping I think they are a terrible choice (who doesn't!) and believe counselling is always preferable.
No, no, it makes sense, and I appreciate your answer, but lordy, you labour your points to death! If you can say it in 5 words or say it in 50, always go with the 5
Back during High School I hung out with friends that smoked a lot of pot. They never really pressured me into doing anything I didn't want to do so I never tried it. But nowadays I just can't stand being around it. Just not used to the smell like I was back then. Makes my clothes and everything smell like burning grass.
I don't like drugs and have little respect for those that pump the crap into themselves, however it's the suppliers that I actually dispise for profiting off the suffering of others.
Sorry for the length and labour, still rather new to forum discourse so the fear of stepping on toes, being rude or warned/banned due to misrepresentation of an idea has me trying to be overly cautious. Behind this shield of pixels nothing can harm me! hehe [Granted undermines the concept of discourse, but that's another story]
Oh I'm in complete agreement with the first point - it's amazingly sad threatening funny how hypocritical people can be.
When it comes to the two options, I'd think a legalized and regulated system is definitely better. However, personally - and I cannot coherently go beyond that I fear - I think the very fact that drugs exist in the capacity that they do is reflective of some deficiency within our species. That they appeal to people, regardless of cause, is both fascinating and disturbing.
I don't doubt that there are users who can quite easily maintain a balance between consumption and daily/social life without consequences, but not all are like that, nor are all drugs as equally "predictable" (as mentioned with coke and the like). And, as stated, there are many dangerous and risky alternatives that are "perfectly legal," so I think it's just a part of humanity that we're drawn to forms of effacement and escapism that carry risks.
I'm a cautious (read timid) soul generally speaking, so I find the idea of even mildly dangerous/risky acts rather daunting, but yeah, as it seems, some just need more than the "basic package." If anything I'd chalk that point up to a failure of proper perspective taking on my part; I'm still thinking "why do you need to - jump off this/smoke that/drink ____" By no means scientific or philosophical, but hey, it's just another personal failing on my part.
Apologies if it read like I was specifically targeting you, was try to present more generally my views on drugs - hence the "dark underworld" etc. Got to respect those who attend to such caution in their purchase and consumption, though part of me is skeptical of just how ethical such an industry can ultimately be, especially when it moves from homegrown poppies/cannabis etc, and you start getting into the lab side of things ala coke and shabu and the like. But, honestly, such skepticism is at the same level as what I have towards the ethical integrity of the shops that make my clothes, so just a niggling thought from time to time if nothing else.
With the idea of obligation to others via ourselves, I think within society one is entitled to selective self destruction - I can't quite appreciate it, but hey... However the onus is on the individual to regulate their destruction, if that doesn't sound silly. Drink, smoke etc... but do not allow it to come to dominate your life. And therein I think is the risk with many narcotics (legal ones too) is the risk of dependency and addiction and the long term effects their use can have.
At the end of the day, us humans have a love for doing stupid things - even us timid folk aren't a hundred percent cloistered - I can only hope, realistically, that what dangers there are in our pursuit of happiness are mitigated as best they can be and one's private pursuits do not spill over into the public sphere and begin to encroach upon others.
Fortunately this "character/case study" seems like a decent person
I have nothing against people who use drugs in general. If some people want to fuck up their lives, it's their prerogative. It's also my prerogative not to associate with heavy users. And yes, I differentiate between people who do the occasional line a couple times a year from people who spend every waking moment looking for a score. I wouldn't say that the former group is "fucking up their lives," just as I wouldn't say that someone who drinks a single bottle of light beer once a week is an alcoholic. Substance use isn't a black-or-white concept.
BUT... events in the last 16 months of my life have steeled my heart to anyone who uses meth or has EVER used meth. I will never again trust anyone in either of those groups, period. Doesn't matter to me if they're off it, I won't have anything to do with them.
Put it this way: someone I knew and thought of as a friend took me to a place that was full of meth addicts and I didn't have a clue that they were. I got stuck in the middle of a massive fight that broke out (which I had nothing to do with) and got the living shit pummeled out me, so bad that the bruises didn't completely disappear for 10 months. This stupid selfie (yes, MEANT to be stupid) was taken 6 weeks after the fight, and doesn't show the worst of the bruising. (And for the record, the reason my sleeve was pulled up wasn't because I was showing off the bruises, but because it still hurt to have even the lightest fabrics against my skin.) I didn't realize that my "friend" was once a meth addict herself until May of last year, when she took $200 from me, bought meth, and lashed out at me with the most hurtful words anybody has ever spoken to me since I stopped talking to my child-abusing stepmom. The very night she did that I almost attempted suicide... might have done so if I hadn't fallen asleep from six hours of constant crying.
And then there was the other "friend" I met through her. I genuinely thought this person was a friend of mine, and I knew she was a recovered alcoholic and meth addict. But several times in the past year, I noticed that large quantities of my medications were missing and I had no clue where they had gone. I didn't know until this past June, when I thought I caught her rummaging through my purse, taking one of my pills. Stupid me didn't confront her because I didn't actually SEE her take one. But at the beginning of July, I went to her house with half a pill in one of my bottles. I thought I heard my purse opening when I was in the bathroom at one point, and sure enough, when I left her house, my half a pill was gone. It hurt so badly because she once swore up and down that she wasn't taking my pills and even asked me if I was sure that someone in my family wasn't taking them. Manipulative little *****... How dare she, a fucking dirty pill-popper, take it on herself to decide how healthy I am. She saw the tears I cried when I noticed the many times my pills had mysteriously vanished, but she obviously didn't care. It was all about HER getting HER fix. Never mind the fact that those pills are what keep me out of a psych ward.
So yeah, that's about it. Except for people who do/did meth, I really don't have a problem with drug users when they only use casually.
However, personally - and I cannot coherently go beyond that I fear - I think the very fact that drugs exist in the capacity that they do is reflective of some deficiency within our species.
I cannot understand how the variety of ways in which drugs can be used and abused could possibly be seen as a deficiency! Addiction is one thing because pretty much every species with a vaguely complex brain is susceptible to it. More interesting to me, though, is not only the amazingly powerful experiences that drugs can elicit in the brain, but the fact that we as a human species have such a highly developed neocortex that we can become self-aware and manipulate our own chemistry to exploit this capacity for experience.
Cal Shackleford said:
That they appeal to people, regardless of cause, is both fascinating and disturbing.
Disturbing? I can't see why! I see it as a side effect of the human propensity for curiosity and investigation. I'm not naive, though; I'm aware that not everyone takes drugs responsibly, but I see it as a positive aspect of human nature that we can questions things and choose to experiment even in face of societal denigration and even great legal risk.
Cal Shackleford said:
And, as stated, there are many dangerous and risky alternatives that are "perfectly legal," so I think it's just a part of humanity that we're drawn to forms of effacement and escapism that carry risks.
I don't know why you speak of it with such negativity; not everyone who takes drugs, sky dives, or cycles without a helmet is gunning for self destruction or feels the need for escapism. As I mentioned before, I exclusively take drugs when I'm already happy. I meditate, read, play video games, or do sport for escapism.
Cal Shackleford said:
I'm a cautious (read timid) soul generally speaking, so I find the idea of even mildly dangerous/risky acts rather daunting, but yeah, as it seems, some just need more than the "basic package." If anything I'd chalk that point up to a failure of proper perspective taking on my part; I'm still thinking "why do you need to - jump off this/smoke that/drink ____" By no means scientific or philosophical, but hey, it's just another personal failing on my part.
If high octane or risky endeavours are not your bag there's nothing wrong with that. I support your right to relax with a good book in front of a warm fire on a quiet evening
Cal Shackleford said:
Apologies if it read like I was specifically targeting you, was try to present more generally my views on drugs - hence the "dark underworld" etc.
Of course not; I just reply with personal experiences because I'm the example I'm most intimately familiar with
Cal Shackleford said:
Got to respect those who attend to such caution in their purchase and consumption, though part of me is skeptical of just how ethical such an industry can ultimately be, especially when it moves from homegrown poppies/cannabis etc, and you start getting into the lab side of things ala coke and shabu and the like.
In my case there is no industry. Well, kind of. It's complicated. I can't say anymore except that your concerns don't apply to me. Sorry, I really wish I could be less vague :/
Cal Shackleford said:
But, honestly, such skepticism is at the same level as what I have towards the ethical integrity of the shops that make my clothes, so just a niggling thought from time to time if nothing else.
That scepticism is so important, though, and I would encourage everyone to exercise it. As I said before, I'm very conscientious about my purchases in all aspects of my life, including when it comes to clothes, food, and even entertainment.
Cal Shackleford said:
one's private pursuits do not spill over into the public sphere and begin to encroach upon others.
I think there's a lot more going on in your example than just meth. There are so many factors involved in your story that can't be discounted. That said, I'm assuming you're from the US. Meth isn't really a thing in most of the places I've lived and when I lived in the US it wasn't really a well-known thing.
Baffle said:
Not really bothered. I'm too old to hang around with people who think they're cool because they use drugs (which is a really annoying attitude to be around), so they must be using them because they enjoy the process. The only people I know that do use drugs don't really mention it. Personally, I love the booze.
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