Do you include the delivery fee in with the tip?

[shootthebandit]

That's why I like the idea of a card that'll educate you on why tipping is bad and urge you to talk to your employer about it. It shows that we're united, that there are many of us, and that it's nothing personal.

Couldn't we stand slipping you a couple of bucks? Couldn't you stand talking to your employer?

I dare you try unionizing in North Carolina. You'll be fired and effectively black listed (unemployable anywhere). I would love to unionize but it's illegal here. So tipping is not only a good thing, it really is the only way a lot of people here will be able to make ends meet.

Unions are illegal? Seriously? What sort of fascist dictatorship do you live in where trade unionism is illegal. So you live in a country where the bottom rung employees are paid unfairly then make it illegal for them to do anything about it?

 

[TallanKhan]

As a Brit I know that anyone I tip is earning at least minimum wage regardless so I tend to be selective when it comes to tipping. I tip for good service in a restaurant, or from a taxi driver. I tend not to tip at a bar or the like unless the server really goes the extra mile or something.

Delivery drivers are a tough one. Often they work self employed on a commission basis so are the exception to the rule above, however, there is very little service involved in handing over a pizza and collecting my money. At the moment I live in a 2nd floor apartment so my current rule of thumb is that as long as they are reasonably friendly, delivery drivers who walk up the stairs to my front door get a tip, those who make me go down don't. If I end up back on the ground floor next time I move, I may have to re-evaluate my criteria, but for now it seems fair.

 

[Depulcator]

If I pay a delivery fee, I don't pay a tip. I've already paid for the service so there is no extra service being provided that warrants a tip.

This. And if i see double digit fee's I just don't get my pizza from there, or just go pick it up.

 

[albin205]

I'm from Sweden, And no one tips in sweden.

 

[-Dragmire-]

I don't know how it works in other countries, but here in the U.S.A, a delivery fee doesn't go to the driver. Plus, the driver's wage is very dependent on tips. Here, employees will earn minimum wage when in the store, but when they check out to do a delivery, their pay is reduced by about 3 dollars per hour and tips are expected to make it up. So basically, if drivers don't get tips, they make much less than what they would get if they were minimum wage full time. As such, I'm very much in favor of giving tips to delivery drivers.

That sounds like a scam under the guise of, "Making sure they don't waste time while the manager is unable to supervise them".

Does the average business cover gas for deliveries? The places near me tend to use personal vehicles(nothing on them indicating they are part of the business) when delivering so I'm not sure if the delivery charge is essentially gas money.

[hr]

I have family that delivers meals for his personal business[footnote]Freshly made food that's then frozen in microwavable containers. Most of his customers are seniors who can no longer cook for themselves but still want to eat healthily[/footnote], the delivery charge was implemented for two reasons. First, the area he covers is most of our city so deliveries can take over an hour to get to the place and back which adds up to quite a bit of gas money. Secondly, people were ordering such a small amount of food that he would actually lose money by delivering it, the charge makes people feel the need to order larger quantities to make the delivery charge seem worth it.
There's no expectation of tips though, that's completely up to the customer. Still, it brightens his day when he gets one.

 

[Vrach]

What the hell is a "delivery fee"?

Could be a regional difference, but most places charge extra for a delivery as opposed to actually grabbing your food at the take out palce. The ones that don't generally advertise quite heavily on it.

 

[TakerFoxx]

And you'll probably find a better one.

Except for the part where it's very hard to find a new job, I was unemployed for a year and a half before I found this job, don't do well at interviews, and actually like working here, as I explained in my last post.

We'd only be fighting against the system if we had the cards.

But what attitude do you find insulting, exactly? That I shouldn't have to give you EXTRA money for a service I'm not actually being charged for?

The whole "It's for your own good" attitude, as if having a bunch of people stop tipping to enact is actually doing us drivers a favor. It isn't. If you're not going to tip, by all means don't tip. It's your money, and tipping is voluntary. But at least be honest about it instead of acting like it's for our benefit.

 

[shootthebandit]

I never said anything about unionizing. I don't think an employer, or a group of employees, talking to their employer about something that they want changed counts as a "union".

From my experience that is the exact definition of a trade union. Most unions start off with negotiations with the employer if that fails they will then strike or take whatever action is required. Its a bit of a misconception that unions are aggressive and bullies. Yes they have been in the past but now they are simply organisations which provide support for workers

 

[Something Amyss]

Are tipping threads bad or something?

This could somehow become the rare acception but tipping threads usually end the same way that mentioning Anita Sarkeesian; two groups (pro-tipping and anti-tipping in this case) will flame each other until a Mod locks the thread up.

Don't forget the third group who rants about it because they come from a culture where service people are actually paid and therefore they don't understand it.

OT:

If there's a delivery charge, I pay it and the tip as separate entities. Then again, I over-tip on delivery because the place I order from most makes its drivers pay for gas and the like (which is why while I'm not pro-tipping, I'll do it anyway), so I'm not sure you'd really tell the difference.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh, my righteous white knight on a shining steed, do tell me, what steps have you taken against employer abuse of the minimum wage laws? You say that you fight for my freedom...have you founded a grass-roots organization? Have you created a local union? Do you march in the streets against these injustices?

...or do you merely act high-and-mighty on a gaming forum?

I'm pretty much making up this idea as I go along. Confronting me in the beginning stages of my evolving plan to fight back and asking if I've won the war yet is pretty silly. Give me time.

Well, to be fair, if you have started a plan you should not only have it resolved but also fixed all the problems in the world. I mean, is that so unreasonable?

I kid, of course. I actually think it's good that you want to do something. I even like the mockup.

 

[dyre]

Oh, my righteous white knight on a shining steed, do tell me, what steps have you taken against employer abuse of the minimum wage laws? You say that you fight for my freedom...have you founded a grass-roots organization? Have you created a local union? Do you march in the streets against these injustices?

...or do you merely act high-and-mighty on a gaming forum?

I'm pretty much making up this idea as I go along. Confronting me in the beginning stages of my evolving plan to fight back and asking if I've won the war yet is pretty silly. Give me time.

Hmm, fine...I expect a full status report in 48 hours; that's fair, right?

But seriously, before you've lived and struggled in that environment, don't be so quick judge people who've had to deal with the realities of that world for years. It may be that your ideals of freedom and justice can win the day...but before you have a legitimate plan with a decent chance of success, don't criticize others for not believing in your plan.

 

[TakerFoxx]

It was hard for slaves to break out of slavery and find a new job where they weren't treated like slaves too.

...

Did you just compare delivering pizzas to slavery?

No. Stop.

Yes, I read all that.

Then you know why I'm not eager to leave. I like it here and unemployment sucks. End of.

I don't have this attitude.

Yes, you do. The below is nothing but.

However, I do think that it would be better for you, the economy, and everyone if employers paid their employees a fair wage. Society standing up against the practice of tipping may inconvenience those who depend on tips for a while, but it'd be worth it if, in the end, tipping were abolished.

Short term, yes, you lose out while this war rages. Long term, it's the employers who lose. You'll be restored to a fair working wage in the end.

I don't expect you to stand with us. You've fully integrated into an oppressive system ruled by fear. You're just a helpless cog in the machine. You depend on it for life. It's lamentable that it's come to this, but the machine has got to come down, for the greater good. Perhaps you'll end up as collateral damage. Or perhaps you'll free yourself from the machine before it collapses. Who knows?

We will fight for your freedom whether you stand behind us or not.

Okay, yeah, I genuinely find this attitude insulting, on account of it being incredibly condescending. No, I am not some poor mistreated peon who's been brainwashed by the system. Because guess what? I do make minimum wage. Which I why I've kept stressing that tipping is voluntary. It's a nice thing to do to brighten up the driver's day. If I end up getting stiffed on a delivery, well, them's the breaks, hopefully next one will be better, and my day goes on. I enjoy my job, do not feel oppressed or fearful, I like the people I work for and work with, and with my wages and tips taken together, do fairly okay for myself. And because I'm good at saving money, my bank account is now quite healthy, thanks. And as for drivers who don't make minimum? I can guarantee that they don't appreciate your "help" either, and would greatly prefer it if you just picked up your food yourself.

So to sum up the point of participation in this thread...
1. Delivery charges don't go to the driver, so don't use that as an excuse not to tip.
2. Refusing to tip isn't fighting the system or sticking it to the man. It's sticking it to the driver. End of.
3. Yes, employers should pay their employees a decent wage. But sticking to said employees isn't going to help anyone. Your intentions might be sound, but your methods are hurting the wrong people.
4. You are perfectly within your rights not to tip. It's your money. You can do what you want with it. But please, please, please stop acting like you're some great social justice warrior fighting for us poor, brainwashed folks. Like I said, it's insulting.

In short, putting aside late orders, jerkass drivers, mistakes etc., the only reason not to tip is "I don't feel like giving you money." It's not very nice, but hey, it's a valid reason and at least it's honest. I'd rather get that than a condescending "It's for your own good, you poor thing."

 

[Doomtrack]

I live in a country with zero tipping culture, so no i never tip.

 

[Mir Teiwaz]

The few times I do go somewhere that has waiters/waitresses or decide to order delivery, I give a tip. The better the service, the better the tip as is common here in the southern Wisconsin, USA area.

Most times I find myself just ordering a pizza for takeout and pick it up myself. Between the $2.25 delivery fee that Papa John's charges (which is the place I prefer around here, Pizza Hut charges $2.50) and the tip I would put on top of it, it's far cheaper to just pick up the pizza myself even after including gas and all that for my car.


The only time a tip pisses me off is if I go somewhere that bakes it into the bill. It's no longer a thanks for excellent service when it's thrown in as part of the bill by the person that served me.

 

[Gamer87]

I also live in a country with no tipping culture. I'm unemployed and I don't have a lot of money and so I like to know the full price before I order.

So if I were to go to the US and NOT tip, KNOWING that US culture expects tips, would that make me a dick?

It's just that it's strange to me and it makes me uncomfortable getting the evil eye just because I pay exactly what something costs. I don't return to Gamestop and pay them extra beacause I liked a game and got good service from the staff. If a waiter is not payed enough and must get by on tips, that's not my problem, that's because of his employer not paying him enough so that he in practice has to beg while on the job.

I'm not trying to be mean here, and I think that everyone has the right to a decent minimum salary, but expecting extra money from a customer who has already payed the agreed price for a product is just weird and even offensive to me.

 

[Flames66]

I also live in a country with no tipping culture. I'm unemployed and I don't have a lot of money and so I like to know the full price before I order.

So if I were to go to the US and NOT tip, KNOWING that US culture expects tips, would that make me a dick?

It's just that it's strange to me and it makes me uncomfortable getting the evil eye just because I pay exactly what something costs. I don't return to Gamestop and pay them extra beacause I liked a game and got good service from the staff. If a waiter is not payed enough and must get by on tips, that's not my problem, that's because of his employer not paying him enough so that he in practice has to beg while on the job.

I'm not trying to be mean here, and I think that everyone has the right to a decent minimum salary, but expecting extra money from a customer who has already payed the agreed price for a product is just weird and even offensive to me.

This sums up my feelings rather well.

Seconded. I will not tip for the same reason that I won't shop anywhere that doesn't include VAT (sales tax) in the listed price. It's the same principal as canceling an entire order if I discover any charges not listed on the advertising.

 

[dyre]

But seriously, before you've lived and struggled in that environment, don't be so quick judge people who've had to deal with the realities of that world for years.

I don't need to commiserate with them to be against tipping. I don't need to have been a slave to see why slavery is bad, do I?

You do need to be a slave (or at least bother trying to understand things from their point of view) to realize that attempting to escape in the wrong manner or at the wrong time can be not only fruitless, but fatal...

Ever hear of Nat Turner's rebellion? A charismatic slave, who thought that he had been given orders from God, organized a number of other slaves, who rioted, killing a few dozen white slaveowners. They were eventually defeated and killed...along with a few hundred slaves who had nothing to do with it. Would you fault a slave for discouraging that sort of rash, badly planned insurrection?

It may be that your ideals of freedom and justice can win the day...but before you have a legitimate plan with a decent chance of success, don't criticize others for not believing in your plan.

I'm not, am I?

Well, you did call that other person a cog in a machine and pretty much implied that he didn't have the courage to break free from his oppression.

 

[dyre]

You do need to be a slave (or at least bother trying to understand things from their point of view) to realize that attempting to escape in the wrong manner or at the wrong time can be not only fruitless, but fatal...

If you think rising up in numbers and making your anti-tip presence known is not the optimal way of going about things, I'm open to hear better ideas.

What numbers? Your plan can't conjure "numbers" from air; it'll require the first activists to take an enormous risk and force them to put their faith into your ability to turn their sacrifice into something greater. People have no ethical obligation to throw away their lives to support any random do-gooder who objects to the status quo.

Ever hear of Nat Turner's rebellion? A charismatic slave, who thought that he had been given orders from God, organized a number of other slaves, who rioted, killing a few dozen white slaveowners. They were eventually defeated and killed...along with a few hundred slaves who had nothing to do with it. Would you fault a slave for discouraging that sort of rash, badly planned insurrection?

It made it into the history books, so no, not really. He made a statement, fought and died for it, and inspired others in the process. Wikipedia says he was regarded as a hero by some groups, so there you go.

There's a fine line between a "hero" and a "fool." Nat Turner's rash rebellion resulted the deaths of hundreds of innocent people, and achieved nothing other than making Southern slaveowners more paranoid. And that was from an intelligent and skilled organizer. Are you more capable than Nat Turner? Can you succeed where he failed? If not, why should people follow you (at their peril, not yours) when your dedication and ability to create change is completely unproven?

Well, you did call that other person a cog in a machine and pretty much implied that he didn't have the courage to break free from his oppression.

Sure, he's a cog in the machine, but not because he disagrees with my plan. He said he genuinely likes his job and likes getting tips. I don't want to take either of those things away from him. It's just that his tips would stop being "automatic" and "expected".

Did it ever occur to you that he might be an independent, free-willed human being who made an autonomous decision based on his own values and perceptions of the world? Maybe he just doesn't like being fired to satisfy someone else's unproven ambitions?

 

[Bat Vader]

I live pretty close to the pizza place I frequent and usually just pick up a pizza if I want one. On the rare times I order out for delivery I don't include the fee in the tip and most of the time tip the guy or gal ten dollars.

 

[dyre]

The plan is to rise up in numbers. To say "There are no numbers" isn't a critique of the plan itself.

You skipped the first 100 steps of the plan in which you turn zero people into large numbers. If people aren't confident in your plan to convince large numbers of people, why would they join you? I could tell people "join me, I will use mass protests to raise the minimum wage," but if that's the beginning and the end of my plan, it's hardly going to create much confidence. Wars are not won with grand ideas alone.

Your plan can't conjure "numbers" from air; it'll require the first activists to take an enormous risk and force them to put their faith into your ability to turn their sacrifice into something greater. People have no ethical obligation to throw away their lives to support any random do-gooder who objects to the status quo.

Throw away their lives? That seems overly dramatic.

But the "first activists" already exist, if threads like these are an indication. Look at all the people against tipping in this topic. I argue that the people are out there, they just need a banner to unite under and a way to make their presence known to others.

Sorry, I meant livelihoods; the slavery thing probably made me flip the terms.

Those people don't matter; most of them aren't even American, and the rest aren't in any position to affect change. An angry mob isn't going to fix this; the "numbers" you need are the service workers themselves. And in any case you haven't provided much of a plan to rally those people to support you in a long-term movement.

There's a fine line between a "hero" and a "fool." Nat Turner's rash rebellion resulted the deaths of hundreds of innocent people, and achieved nothing other than making Southern slaveowners more paranoid.

I don't see how you can say he achieved nothing if certain relevant groups verifiably think him to be a hero.

Uh, okay, so he achieved a badge to his ego in heaven? The Mexican officer cadets who fought to the death against American forces in the Mexican-American war are also revered as heroes, but it's pretty clear they didn't change a thing. And more important, those young cadets didn't bring down hundreds of innocent civilians with them.

And that was from an intelligent and skilled organizer. Are you more capable than Nat Turner? Can you succeed where he failed? If not, why should people follow you (at their peril, not yours) when your dedication and ability to create change is completely unproven?

Because I won't get anybody killed? Because there's virtually no chance of anybody ever getting killed over this?

Plus, I never said I'd be the one to lead this movement did I? Or that there would even be a leader?

Sure, this fight isn't exactly as risky as the fight against slavery, but jobs will be lost. Believe or not, that matters a lot to people. It's a huge risk, not to be taken lightly for some dubiously planned cause.

The point is, people aren't cowards or cogs just because they don't rise up...they simply haven't been given a believable course of action that is worth risking their jobs over.

Did it ever occur to you that he might be an independent, free-willed human being who made an autonomous decision based on his own values and perceptions of the world?

Did I ever say he wasn't?

Rhetoric about being a "helpless cog in a machine" and being "ruled by fear" traditionally implies an that an individual is not able to make rationa, free-willed decisions.