Do you include the delivery fee in with the tip?

[TakerFoxx]

It was hard for slaves to break out of slavery and find a new job where they weren't treated like slaves too.

...

Did you just compare delivering pizzas to slavery?

No. Stop.

Yes, I read all that.

Then you know why I'm not eager to leave. I like it here and unemployment sucks. End of.

I don't have this attitude.

Yes, you do. The below is nothing but.

However, I do think that it would be better for you, the economy, and everyone if employers paid their employees a fair wage. Society standing up against the practice of tipping may inconvenience those who depend on tips for a while, but it'd be worth it if, in the end, tipping were abolished.

Short term, yes, you lose out while this war rages. Long term, it's the employers who lose. You'll be restored to a fair working wage in the end.

I don't expect you to stand with us. You've fully integrated into an oppressive system ruled by fear. You're just a helpless cog in the machine. You depend on it for life. It's lamentable that it's come to this, but the machine has got to come down, for the greater good. Perhaps you'll end up as collateral damage. Or perhaps you'll free yourself from the machine before it collapses. Who knows?

We will fight for your freedom whether you stand behind us or not.

Okay, yeah, I genuinely find this attitude insulting, on account of it being incredibly condescending. No, I am not some poor mistreated peon who's been brainwashed by the system. Because guess what? I do make minimum wage. Which I why I've kept stressing that tipping is voluntary. It's a nice thing to do to brighten up the driver's day. If I end up getting stiffed on a delivery, well, them's the breaks, hopefully next one will be better, and my day goes on. I enjoy my job, do not feel oppressed or fearful, I like the people I work for and work with, and with my wages and tips taken together, do fairly okay for myself. And because I'm good at saving money, my bank account is now quite healthy, thanks. And as for drivers who don't make minimum? I can guarantee that they don't appreciate your "help" either, and would greatly prefer it if you just picked up your food yourself.

So to sum up the point of participation in this thread...
1. Delivery charges don't go to the driver, so don't use that as an excuse not to tip.
2. Refusing to tip isn't fighting the system or sticking it to the man. It's sticking it to the driver. End of.
3. Yes, employers should pay their employees a decent wage. But sticking to said employees isn't going to help anyone. Your intentions might be sound, but your methods are hurting the wrong people.
4. You are perfectly within your rights not to tip. It's your money. You can do what you want with it. But please, please, please stop acting like you're some great social justice warrior fighting for us poor, brainwashed folks. Like I said, it's insulting.

In short, putting aside late orders, jerkass drivers, mistakes etc., the only reason not to tip is "I don't feel like giving you money." It's not very nice, but hey, it's a valid reason and at least it's honest. I'd rather get that than a condescending "It's for your own good, you poor thing."

 

[Doomtrack]

I live in a country with zero tipping culture, so no i never tip.

 

[Mir Teiwaz]

The few times I do go somewhere that has waiters/waitresses or decide to order delivery, I give a tip. The better the service, the better the tip as is common here in the southern Wisconsin, USA area.

Most times I find myself just ordering a pizza for takeout and pick it up myself. Between the $2.25 delivery fee that Papa John's charges (which is the place I prefer around here, Pizza Hut charges $2.50) and the tip I would put on top of it, it's far cheaper to just pick up the pizza myself even after including gas and all that for my car.


The only time a tip pisses me off is if I go somewhere that bakes it into the bill. It's no longer a thanks for excellent service when it's thrown in as part of the bill by the person that served me.

 

[Gamer87]

I also live in a country with no tipping culture. I'm unemployed and I don't have a lot of money and so I like to know the full price before I order.

So if I were to go to the US and NOT tip, KNOWING that US culture expects tips, would that make me a dick?

It's just that it's strange to me and it makes me uncomfortable getting the evil eye just because I pay exactly what something costs. I don't return to Gamestop and pay them extra beacause I liked a game and got good service from the staff. If a waiter is not payed enough and must get by on tips, that's not my problem, that's because of his employer not paying him enough so that he in practice has to beg while on the job.

I'm not trying to be mean here, and I think that everyone has the right to a decent minimum salary, but expecting extra money from a customer who has already payed the agreed price for a product is just weird and even offensive to me.

 

[Flames66]

I also live in a country with no tipping culture. I'm unemployed and I don't have a lot of money and so I like to know the full price before I order.

So if I were to go to the US and NOT tip, KNOWING that US culture expects tips, would that make me a dick?

It's just that it's strange to me and it makes me uncomfortable getting the evil eye just because I pay exactly what something costs. I don't return to Gamestop and pay them extra beacause I liked a game and got good service from the staff. If a waiter is not payed enough and must get by on tips, that's not my problem, that's because of his employer not paying him enough so that he in practice has to beg while on the job.

I'm not trying to be mean here, and I think that everyone has the right to a decent minimum salary, but expecting extra money from a customer who has already payed the agreed price for a product is just weird and even offensive to me.

This sums up my feelings rather well.

Seconded. I will not tip for the same reason that I won't shop anywhere that doesn't include VAT (sales tax) in the listed price. It's the same principal as canceling an entire order if I discover any charges not listed on the advertising.

 

[dyre]

But seriously, before you've lived and struggled in that environment, don't be so quick judge people who've had to deal with the realities of that world for years.

I don't need to commiserate with them to be against tipping. I don't need to have been a slave to see why slavery is bad, do I?

You do need to be a slave (or at least bother trying to understand things from their point of view) to realize that attempting to escape in the wrong manner or at the wrong time can be not only fruitless, but fatal...

Ever hear of Nat Turner's rebellion? A charismatic slave, who thought that he had been given orders from God, organized a number of other slaves, who rioted, killing a few dozen white slaveowners. They were eventually defeated and killed...along with a few hundred slaves who had nothing to do with it. Would you fault a slave for discouraging that sort of rash, badly planned insurrection?

It may be that your ideals of freedom and justice can win the day...but before you have a legitimate plan with a decent chance of success, don't criticize others for not believing in your plan.

I'm not, am I?

Well, you did call that other person a cog in a machine and pretty much implied that he didn't have the courage to break free from his oppression.

 

[dyre]

You do need to be a slave (or at least bother trying to understand things from their point of view) to realize that attempting to escape in the wrong manner or at the wrong time can be not only fruitless, but fatal...

If you think rising up in numbers and making your anti-tip presence known is not the optimal way of going about things, I'm open to hear better ideas.

What numbers? Your plan can't conjure "numbers" from air; it'll require the first activists to take an enormous risk and force them to put their faith into your ability to turn their sacrifice into something greater. People have no ethical obligation to throw away their lives to support any random do-gooder who objects to the status quo.

Ever hear of Nat Turner's rebellion? A charismatic slave, who thought that he had been given orders from God, organized a number of other slaves, who rioted, killing a few dozen white slaveowners. They were eventually defeated and killed...along with a few hundred slaves who had nothing to do with it. Would you fault a slave for discouraging that sort of rash, badly planned insurrection?

It made it into the history books, so no, not really. He made a statement, fought and died for it, and inspired others in the process. Wikipedia says he was regarded as a hero by some groups, so there you go.

There's a fine line between a "hero" and a "fool." Nat Turner's rash rebellion resulted the deaths of hundreds of innocent people, and achieved nothing other than making Southern slaveowners more paranoid. And that was from an intelligent and skilled organizer. Are you more capable than Nat Turner? Can you succeed where he failed? If not, why should people follow you (at their peril, not yours) when your dedication and ability to create change is completely unproven?

Well, you did call that other person a cog in a machine and pretty much implied that he didn't have the courage to break free from his oppression.

Sure, he's a cog in the machine, but not because he disagrees with my plan. He said he genuinely likes his job and likes getting tips. I don't want to take either of those things away from him. It's just that his tips would stop being "automatic" and "expected".

Did it ever occur to you that he might be an independent, free-willed human being who made an autonomous decision based on his own values and perceptions of the world? Maybe he just doesn't like being fired to satisfy someone else's unproven ambitions?

 

[Bat Vader]

I live pretty close to the pizza place I frequent and usually just pick up a pizza if I want one. On the rare times I order out for delivery I don't include the fee in the tip and most of the time tip the guy or gal ten dollars.

 

[dyre]

The plan is to rise up in numbers. To say "There are no numbers" isn't a critique of the plan itself.

You skipped the first 100 steps of the plan in which you turn zero people into large numbers. If people aren't confident in your plan to convince large numbers of people, why would they join you? I could tell people "join me, I will use mass protests to raise the minimum wage," but if that's the beginning and the end of my plan, it's hardly going to create much confidence. Wars are not won with grand ideas alone.

Your plan can't conjure "numbers" from air; it'll require the first activists to take an enormous risk and force them to put their faith into your ability to turn their sacrifice into something greater. People have no ethical obligation to throw away their lives to support any random do-gooder who objects to the status quo.

Throw away their lives? That seems overly dramatic.

But the "first activists" already exist, if threads like these are an indication. Look at all the people against tipping in this topic. I argue that the people are out there, they just need a banner to unite under and a way to make their presence known to others.

Sorry, I meant livelihoods; the slavery thing probably made me flip the terms.

Those people don't matter; most of them aren't even American, and the rest aren't in any position to affect change. An angry mob isn't going to fix this; the "numbers" you need are the service workers themselves. And in any case you haven't provided much of a plan to rally those people to support you in a long-term movement.

There's a fine line between a "hero" and a "fool." Nat Turner's rash rebellion resulted the deaths of hundreds of innocent people, and achieved nothing other than making Southern slaveowners more paranoid.

I don't see how you can say he achieved nothing if certain relevant groups verifiably think him to be a hero.

Uh, okay, so he achieved a badge to his ego in heaven? The Mexican officer cadets who fought to the death against American forces in the Mexican-American war are also revered as heroes, but it's pretty clear they didn't change a thing. And more important, those young cadets didn't bring down hundreds of innocent civilians with them.

And that was from an intelligent and skilled organizer. Are you more capable than Nat Turner? Can you succeed where he failed? If not, why should people follow you (at their peril, not yours) when your dedication and ability to create change is completely unproven?

Because I won't get anybody killed? Because there's virtually no chance of anybody ever getting killed over this?

Plus, I never said I'd be the one to lead this movement did I? Or that there would even be a leader?

Sure, this fight isn't exactly as risky as the fight against slavery, but jobs will be lost. Believe or not, that matters a lot to people. It's a huge risk, not to be taken lightly for some dubiously planned cause.

The point is, people aren't cowards or cogs just because they don't rise up...they simply haven't been given a believable course of action that is worth risking their jobs over.

Did it ever occur to you that he might be an independent, free-willed human being who made an autonomous decision based on his own values and perceptions of the world?

Did I ever say he wasn't?

Rhetoric about being a "helpless cog in a machine" and being "ruled by fear" traditionally implies an that an individual is not able to make rationa, free-willed decisions.

 

[LooK iTz Jinjo]

In Australia there is no tipping culture whatsoever, but I spent a year or so delivering pizza (possibly one of the worst jobs in existence) and basically if you gave me $25 for a $24.90 order and you expected change, you were a dick. Australia doesn't have $1 or $2 notes, we have coins so if you had no light on your front verandah and you wanted me to scrounge though that shitty little bag looking for $1.20 you were a dick. Basically if you wanted less than $5 in change you annoyed me and were, in fact, a dick.

 

[Zac Jovanovic]

I don't tip unless the number is close to round, then I just round it up and let them keep the change.

There's no delivery fee here, you pay the advertised price and delivery people don't rely on tips and get payed the same way as everyone else.

Being honest, I find the tipping system a bit mental. Business owners expect you to pay their workers' salary on top of buying their products, wtf?

 

[dyre]

I've said nothing about those 100 steps, so how are you going to critique what you haven't heard of?

But my first thought would be cast a line out on here and other online forums about this idea, gather feedback and criticism, as well as interested people, and then draw up a better version of that card.

Then I'd make the card accessible for anyone to download and print out. Maybe start a sub-reddit so people could have a hub to gather.

That's it. People print out cards, cut them out, and give them to people who live off of tips. That's my plan so far.

That's what I'm saying; people haven't heard your plan yet, so how can you expect them to follow it? You can't just dismiss that driver for not wanting to hand out your card if he doesn't have any reason to feel confident in your chance to turn that potential sacrifice ("So, we're downsizing a bit, and we're going to have to cut you, sorry.") into a worthwhile end.

Well nobody is going to throw away their livelihoods either. If they did, it'd be nice, but I'm really not expecting anyone to quit their job over this. The card is for customers to give to employees or employers, not for employees to give to employers.

Looking back at the previous page, you were telling a driver to talk to his employer (after receiving your card). Chances are, he has access to his middle manager or at best the owner of the immediate franchise, who has no say on company policy. The only thing that will happen is that they'll start thinking of him as a "bad egg."

Everybody in a revolution matters. The more people there are, the more powerful their bargaining power is.
[...]

Why would I need the service workers themselves?
The way I see it, all I need is for them to glance at the card and keep an approximate mental tally over how many they've collected, so that they can say "Yeah, I've gotten a bunch of those cards" to their co-workers. That's enough to get the ball rolling.

Well, ok, everyone matters at least a little bit. But some people matter a lot less than others. A union of 1000 local workers is worth more than 1,000,000 slightly-outraged random people.

The way I see it, you can follow one of two basic strategies:
1. You can create enough public outrage that employers voluntarily pay the full wage to avoid public relations issues. This is pretty much impossible; it's simply not a painful enough injustice to stir up enough of the public to act aggressively and decisively.
2. You can promote unionization efforts among drivers and other tipped workers. The problem in this case is that many of the available employees are college students or people looking for some temporary work while they seek better opportunity; these people aren't going to fight the good fight if it risks their job.

Uh, okay, so he achieved a badge to his ego in heaven?

On earth.

No one was made better off by his rebellion. Most people were made a lot worse off. Being called a "hero" isn't worth much when you didn't help anyone. There are places where mass-murderers are called "heroes of the revolution." That doesn't justify their actions.

People lost their jobs as slaves too. People lost their jobs as nazis. People lose their jobs working for Al Capone, etc.
"People will lose their jobs" isn't necessarily unjustifiable.

Right, if they lose their jobs for something worthwhile, then it's justified. You say "fighting for fair wages" is worthwhile; I say "fighting a winnable fight for fair wages" is worthwhile.

The point is, people aren't cowards or cogs just because they don't rise up...they simply haven't been given a believable course of action that is worth risking their jobs over.

I don't expect the employees to rise up against the employers. That's not the goal.
The goal is for the general population to rise up against the employers, and for the employees and the employers to be aware of the movement.

If you're not going to involve employees, what good will "rising up" do? What I mean is, let's say you've got one hundred thousand people spread around the country who are willing to follow reasonably low-effort orders from you. You still need a way to use this manpower in a meaningful way.

I didn't say "helpless". And being "ruled by fear"
I said that the customers were ruled by fear.

But you did, and you were talking about the driver!

You've fully integrated into an oppressive system ruled by fear. You're just a helpless cog in the machine. You depend on it for life.

 

[michael87cn]

I don't know why, but this thread makes me really dislike some of the people posting here, that I previously had -good- opinions about!

It just sounds so snobby to be all like "I paid the company, the delivery boy can suck it". I mean, I know people are saying "not all jobs get tips, why should this particular job?" Well, perhaps because not all jobs are equal? And the food industry is one of the worst places a human being can be stuck working in? Especially if they have to drive all over to places they don't know, and knock on weird peoples doors who are so cheap they can't spare $3? I mean, its practically an insult to hand someone coins as part of the tip. You think they really want that .25? Why not just give $2?! You really need that .75 that badly...?

Ugh, pisses me off! It's just so rude and cheap to be like that, but whatever, be however you want...

 

[dyre]

Then he can write a letter to the CEO or something. I'll put that on the card.

Actually, I think it'd be much better to aim these cards directly at the mom and pop shops that can control this. Then they could be examples of successful anti-tip businesses that bigger companies can strive to imitate.

That's at least less risky to actual employees, but that still gives zero reason for mom and pop shops to actually change their policy.

But those million random people are customers whose tips affect a company's bottom line. A million people voting with their wallets would be a powerful force.

The thing is, tips don't affect a company's bottom line. The company doesn't see those tips...they only matter for the driver's bottom line. At most, in some states the company has to pay maybe $4/hour instead of $2.13/hour to make up for the shortage of tips...that still works a lot better to them than paying actual minimum wage. Even if you got one million people to stop tipping forever, it would still give companies zero reason to pay the full minimum wage.

The way I see it, you can follow one of two basic strategies:
1. You can create enough public outrage that employers voluntarily pay the full wage to avoid public relations issues. This is pretty much impossible; it's simply not a painful enough injustice to stir up enough of the public to act aggressively and decisively.
2. You can promote unionization efforts among drivers and other tipped workers. The problem in this case is that many of the available employees are college students or people looking for some temporary work while they seek better opportunity; these people aren't going to fight the good fight if it risks their job.

I choose #3. Educate the populace about tipping enough that the stigma of tipping reverses in on itself and tipping itself is considered something disgraceful.

Even if a million people stop tipping, the companies are still much better off with the current system than with actual fair minimum wage laws. The only people affected are the drivers.

No one was made better off by his rebellion.

Better off? No. Inspired? Yes.

More like terrified. And in any case, inspiration is useless unless directed into useful action. Stop arguing this in circles.

If you're not going to involve employees, what good will "rising up" do?

What I mean is, let's say you've got one hundred thousand people spread around the country who are willing to follow reasonably low-effort orders from you. You still need a way to use this manpower in a meaningful way.

"Rising up" is a good in itself.

Just giving out the cards is meaningful.

....

The purpose of activism is to tangibly change things for the better, not simply to do feel-good nonsense.