Does this seem fair to you?

[jockslap]

Every friday for the past 2 years, i have played Dungeons and Dragons at the local hobbyshop called "Battlegrounds". There are 2 rooms in the downstairs of the shop, The first is more of a hallway then anything else, enough room for 3 4 foot long tables end to end with room for the use of the bathrooms. The second is an actual room, which used to have a door, and has enough space to compensate our group (there is on average 12 players). Normally we pay 3$ per player every single friday we play so that we can use the large room without interruptions. This week the owner of the store (Paul) moved us into the small room, which we could fit 9 players in. When i asked him how much we were to be paying for a smaller room, Paul seemed flabbergasted at the thought of having to lower the price. He got angry with me and asked me to leave. In return i told him that i would leave, but he would have to pay me back the 20$ that i had payed him in January for a year's worth of membership. He refused to return my money and told me to leave his store or he would call the police. Needless to say that i left, and went home.

So to lay it out straight. I was paying 20$ for a year's worth of being allowed to use the store's basement area, and another 3$ for exclusive use of the large room. In return for asking the price, i was denied my membership and the money that i paid for that particular night's use.
On top of that I am now unable to play in the DnD campaign that I have been doing for 2 years (been a player since day 1)

I am incredibly upset right now, but i wanted to know..

A)Was it fair?
B)Is he legally allowed to do that
C)Does anyone have an online DnD campaign with an open spot?

by the way there was no conversation in between, that's pretty much word for word. As for tone, i was completely not angry, because i hadn't realized asking about prices was going to a problem in a store.

 

[ranc0re]

A)Unless you were being a huge douche about it, no, it wasn't fair.
B)Not a legal expert, but I think he's allowed to pick and choose who he lets utilise his store's basement. He MAY need to refund you, but he may not have to. I have no idea really.
C)It's just not the same

 

[Seldon2639]

To the first, no it's not fair.

To the second, it depends. If you had some form of membership agreement with him, it would be enforceable (and if you really wanted to be mean, sue not only for breach of contract, but also for punitive damages, retaliatory damages, and defamation). If there wasn't a contractual agreement, you're likely SOL.

For DnD, I don't know. If you're willing to broaden your horizons, it might be easier to find an open game in L5R, WoD, or something else than pure DnD

 

[dragontiers]

From the description you've given, no it does not sound like you were given a fair deal. Of course, I don't exactly know what the tone of the conversation you had was, so it's hard to make a judgement call. If you sounded overly upset (by his standard), it's possible he was offended by your tone or specific words (or maybe he just doesn't like you, I don't know). I don't know his motives either. Maybe he needed the room for another pre-planned event, or maybe your group was smaller that week than others so he wanted to have the larger room available.

As per the second question, is he legally allowed to do that? Yes (at least in the USA, and I would believe other civilized countries). A vendor/shopkeep has the right to refuse a sale to anyone for any reason, as long as it's not (blatant) discrimination. Furthermore, he can deny you entry to his property. He has the right to call the police to ask you to leave, at which point they would show up, ask you to leave, and, if he says so in their sight, inform you not to come on the property any longer or he could have you arrested. Again, from your description, it sounds like he over-reacted, but it may be he saw you as a possible threat to himself or his patrons, and is well within his rights to act as he did if that is true.

Finally, for C, it sounds like you are in a more densly populated area, so I would recommend going to either another game shop (if there is one available) and asking, or talking to one of the other people you play with, as many times they could be involved in multiple campaigns or sometimes run one of their own. Even if they are not, they usually know somebody who is and can point you in that direction.

 

[Cpt_Oblivious]

I don't think so.

Probably Not.

Sorry, no.

 

[ace_of_something]

A) $3 really? So you let's say since you have 75% of the seating capacity you usually had the room should cost 75% of the price. That's $2.25. Wow. So the two of you got all mad and fought over 75 cents? You're both very very stubborn I'd say.
b) i don't know about it in canada. But it sounds like he was 'renting' it out to you unless you wrote a legally binding contract he can do pretty much whatever the fuck he wants because you have no proof of the agreement.
C) The online games are sucky.


My question how do you effectively play a campaign with 12 people? I've been playing D&D for 15 years and I've never seen more than 8 or 9 without either A) Everyone completely blasting thru the campaign with ease or B) getting so distracted nothing gaming really gets done.

I've always thought 6 is the magic number. Party of 5+1 DM.

 

[Davey Woo]

I think it's kind of bullshit he got all wierd about you asking for a lower price, would have thought if you'd known the guy 2 years, he wouldn't have minded. I know I wouldn't.

I mean he's obviously entitled to say no, you're not paying less money for a smaller room, but kicking you out just for asking, that's crap.

A) Yes, totally unfair
B) He is legally allowed to ask you to leave if he feels it's necessary, but as I said I don't think he had any reason.
C) Nope

 

[fix-the-spade]

A) No
C) Nope,

B) Tricky, he's allowed to throw you off his premises (they're his premises), he's allowed to deny you services you paid for if you behave in a threatening/violent manner.
Since he didn't actually call the police it's your word against his, if you weren't behaving badly and someone threatens that you should just call them out on it. The kind of people who make that threat generally know the police will not be impressed by being called out for one teenage kid who just wants his money back.
Obviously I have no clue what actually happened so I'll assume you behaved and he just picked on you.
If that's the case go back armed with a parent(s), explain to them what happened in detail and then try to get your money back with them in tow. He probably thinks your some idiot kid who'll just go away and never come back, show him otherwise and you'll stand a better chance at getting your money back.


Or to put it bluntly, be a stubborn bastard, a polite, well mannered one, but a stubborn bastard none the less.

#Edit: Even if he threatens to call the cops in again what's he going say?
"Nine-one-one Please state the nature of the emergency,"
"There's a kid and his mum and they're demanding a refund!"
"Sir, are you aware it's a felony to make prank emergency calls?"
"No really, she's so stubborn, help me!"

 

[Pumpkin_Eater]

You're technically entitled to a refund of the $20 but recovering it would cost you way more than the amount owed. Probably he'll continue to be a douche about it and the only real recourse you have is to spread the word about how he treats people.

 

[Kajt]

A) No.
B) Yes.
C) I do not know.

 

[Berithil]

Wow, that sucks. I'm not sure about the legal part, but it's just not right not to give you a refund and kicking you out just for asking the price. That's pretty unfortunate.

 

[jockslap]

A) $3 really? So you let's say since you have 75% of the seating capacity you usually had the room should cost 75% of the price. That's $2.25. Wow. So the two of you got all mad and fought over 75 cents? You're both very very stubborn I'd say.
b) i don't know about it in canada. But it sounds like he was 'renting' it out to you unless you wrote a legally binding contract he can do pretty much whatever the fuck he wants because you have no proof of the agreement.
C) The online games are sucky.


My question how do you effectively play a campaign with 12 people? I've been playing D&D for 15 years and I've never seen more than 8 or 9 without either A) Everyone completely blasting thru the campaign with ease or B) getting so distracted nothing gaming really gets done.

I've always thought 6 is the magic number. Party of 5+1 DM.

ok well first off im fairly sure me paying him for a membership is a legally binding contract.
And it wasn't an argument, he just kicked me out, for asking how much he wanted us to pay, like he was so incredibly offended that i asked about prices in a store.

also our DnD campaign works fairly well, although it started out choppy. With 12 people the rounds in battle take a long time, but its fairly fun to roll play in large groups.

In regards to you're question about the difficulty, our DM Killian has done a fairly good job of balancing it out by making our enemies either more numerous or 3 levels higher. He also changed it to be less combat oriented and thus the numbers matter less, he supplement battling with roleplaying oppertunities and puzzles

 

[sorry user name taken.]

A. Meh


B.Meh


C. meh

 

[Wyatt]

Did you have a written contract? if so its a cut and dryed case that he MAY owe you a refund.

if you DIDNT have a written contract but you can get everyone else that uses that area to support your clame that he does in fact rent out those rooms as a set rate and you have either proof that you paid him, or you have a witness(s) too you paying him than you stand a better than average chance even without a contract.

on the other hand ....... its only $20. id shrug it off and see if i couldnt find a new place to play that DOESNT charge cash to do it. its not like you couldnt get a table that would fit 12+ people in pretty much any place including your garage.

this whole thing strikes me as more of a case of hurt feelings than the actual cash involved. my real advice would be to ask yourself if the stress is worth it, being upset enough to come onto a games forum and even make this thread to begine with shouts to me that your rather young and that it prolly got ......... heated when he moved you/told you to go. without knowing what was actualy said i can also mull over the idea that the owner of a games store WANTS your kind of business since it leads to more sales aside from just renting the room(s) so there has to be more too this than him just booting out his customers because of a $20 cash dispute.

truth is i cant see ANY business owner making this kind of a fuss over $20, if it turns out that hes TOTALY in the wrong, and your fellow D&D players know it, he would have had your cash in your hand in a heart beat if only to keep THEIR business. sounds more too me like he was prolly just tired of either the whole renting rooms idea in general or tired of you and/or your group in the specific. lets face it, even at $3 a head, $40 a night to hoast a group of D&D players might not be worth it depending on your age/actions.

im just struck by the fact that $20 a year or even $3 a head per night is such a small amount of money that there almost HAS too be more to the owners actions that either your telling us, or you even know. ive managed small bunsinesses before in my life. one being a restaurant and for a $20 bill you pretty much just give that away if it means keeping your customer happy. ive comped more than one tab because of 'issues' that may or may not have been my companys fault. example, a customer orders a well done steak, the steak comes out WELL done and the customer decides its over cooked. since its impossable to uncook a steak you either tell the customer to gets fuked, or you give them another steak and just write off the "over cooked" one (or hope someone else wants a well done steak in the next 15-20 minuts).

anyhow $20 is a none issue for business owners too keep their customer base happy so im certian there is more to this than what you wrote. possably more to this than you even know about. there mige be insurance issues hes dealing with, or zoneing issues, or even sub leasing issues that he just didnt bother to explane to you.

on the other hand maybe he IS just a prick, not beyond the realm of possability and depending on your age you should get your parents involved. he might feel he can just blow YOU off, but when hes dealing with another adult the rules change.

 

[jockslap]

Spoiler

Did you have a written contract? if so its a cut and dryed case that he MAY owe you a refund.

if you DIDNT have a written contract but you can get everyone else that uses that area to support your clame that he does in fact rent out those rooms as a set rate and you have either proof that you paid him, or you have a witness(s) too you paying him than you stand a better than average chance even without a contract.

on the other hand ....... its only $20. id shrug it off and see if i couldnt find a new place to play that DOESNT charge cash to do it. its not like you couldnt get a table that would fit 12+ people in pretty much any place including your garage.

this whole thing strikes me as more of a case of hurt feelings than the actual cash involved. my real advice would be to ask yourself if the stress is worth it, being upset enough to come onto a games forum and even make this thread to begine with shouts to me that your rather young and that it prolly got ......... heated when he moved you/told you to go. without knowing what was actualy said i can also mull over the idea that the owner of a games store WANTS your kind of business since it leads to more sales aside from just renting the room(s) so there has to be more too this than him just booting out his customers because of a $20 cash dispute.

truth is i cant see ANY business owner making this kind of a fuss over $20, if it turns out that hes TOTALY in the wrong, and your fellow D&D players know it, he would have had your cash in your hand in a heart beat if only to keep THEIR business. sounds more too me like he was prolly just tired of either the whole renting rooms idea in general or tired of you and/or your group in the specific. lets face it, even at $3 a head, $40 a night to hoast a group of D&D players might not be worth it depending on your age/actions.

im just struck by the fact that $20 a year or even $3 a head per night is such a small amount of money that there almost HAS too be more to the owners actions that either your telling us, or you even know. ive managed small bunsinesses before in my life. one being a restaurant and for a $20 bill you pretty much just give that away if it means keeping your customer happy. ive comped more than one tab because of 'issues' that may or may not have been my companys fault. example, a customer orders a well done steak, the steak comes out WELL done and the customer decides its over cooked. since its impossable to uncook a steak you either tell the customer to gets fuked, or you give them another steak and just write off the "over cooked" one (or hope someone else wants a well done steak in the next 15-20 minuts).

anyhow $20 is a none issue for business owners too keep their customer base happy so im certian there is more to this than what you wrote. possably more to this than you even know about. there mige be insurance issues hes dealing with, or zoneing issues, or even sub leasing issues that he just didnt bother to explane to you.

on the other hand maybe he IS just a prick, not beyond the realm of possability and depending on your age you should get your parents involved. he might feel he can just blow YOU off, but when hes dealing with another adult the rules change.

thats just the thing though, i wouldn't be upset if he had a reason to kick me out, such as being rude, or swearing at him, or something of a similiar nature. Yes, i am fairly young (16) and yes im fairly upset. But i didnt even know that he was going to be angry whatsoever before i spoke, i just asked it because i hadn't payed yet and we where moved into a different room (a smaller and more inconvenient one). The reason that I am upset is that I hadn't done anything other than ask for prices in a store, and now i can't play the DnD campaign that ive been a part of since day 1 two years ago. On top of that i know that if i asked for support from the other players in my campaign, only two people MIGHT support me, and that would be Julian or our DM, but they are too afraid of being in Paul's bad books to say anything. The main reason its so upsetting is because it was entirely unprovoked and undeserved. I know its hard to beleive, but the OP pretty much has it word for word, i believe after i saw how shocked he was that i asked for prices i did say "I can just pay the.." and thats where he cut me off and told me he would call the police if i didn't leave.

[EDIT] I fully intend to return there tomorrow armed with one or both parents and try and get what I'm due.

 

[Laurefinde]

My question is:
What did the other guys in the group do?

Maybe the store owner played "tough guy" to scare them into not complaining. It would seem to be really important to get them behind you with your parents and theirs. To me it would be the principle of the matter and worth a showdown. He treated you harshly and if you can get the whole group to get their money back and go somewhere else - OR - let the store owner realize that you are working with the group and he stands to lose more money by loss of their business. He may have a change of heart.

 

[jockslap]

My question is:
What did the other guys in the group do?

Maybe the store owner played "tough guy" to scare them into not complaining. It would seem to be really important to get them behind you with your parents and theirs. To me it would be the principle of the matter and worth a showdown. He treated you harshly and if you can get the whole group to get their money back and go somewhere else - OR - let the store owner realize that you are working with the group and he stands to lose more money by loss of their business. He may have a change of heart.

main problem is that most of the group are just players, not friends. And yes he does pull the whole "tough guy" thing but it's more of a social device than physical. Most of the group wasn't motivated to stand up for me and just said nothing.

partly i dont blame them either, they do need the space.

 

[SmilingKitsune]

A. Meh


B.Meh


C. meh

These here be true words of wisdom .

 

[black lincon]

A. no thats not fair but I have a feeling your leaving a part out, however if the story happened as you said it did then he's a dick.
B. I'm not a legal expert to begin with and any law I do know is solely in the realm or US law however in the US you might be able to argue that he's infringing on a verbal contract. That is if he had specifically promised you and your party the use of that room for a set price, however I'm not entirely sure what the arangements set forth by your membership include so I can't say for sure. Although you might want to go back and apologize, if you really have no space to play it might be worth it to swallow your pride and say you acted like a dick and see if he'll forgive you, that is if he remembers you in the first place. I've been permanently kicked out of a few places and after a while they simply forget you were permanently banned from the store.
C. nope

 

[jockslap]

A. Meh


B.Meh


C. meh

These here be true words of wisdom .

and also annoying, seeing as he posted with nothing to say, not very good for a discussion.