DotA Creators "Counter-File" Trademark Against Valve

[theSovietConnection]

Wow, I actually expected people to be much more enraged about this. Valve is buying the trademark of a community project and everyone is ok with this. It's like Microsoft would buy Wikipedia and the whole internet community would be ecstatic about the "better support" wiki's would be able to get....

/brain hemmorage

I get the feeling a lot of the lack of rage is due to it being Valve. There'd likely be a lot more rage if EA or Microsoft were to try and trademark it, I can almost guarantee it.

Anyways, he seems to have noble intentions, but I'll wait and see.

 

[hansari]

Ugh...news article involving League of Legends....repressed anger surfacing...

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

If this was say... activision claiming the rights (they do own Blizzard now, so claim over a Warcraft mod wouldn't be that hard of arguement to win) would be pretty justified, but this is VALVE, the guys BUILT on a Mod community.

 

[GoGo_Boy]

Wow, I actually expected people to be much more enraged about this. Valve is buying the trademark of a community project and everyone is ok with this. It's like Microsoft would buy Wikipedia and the whole internet community would be ecstatic about the "better support" wiki's would be able to get....

/brain hemmorage

Yep it boggles my mind.
But I suppose is just a lack of knowledge regarding DotA and I think a lot people are customers and / or fans of Valve which is why they like the step very much.

Also as someone else mentioned Blizzard can play a big role if they want to do so. In fact the map DotA and it's name or at least Defiance of the Ancients is the intellectual property of Blizzard regarding their modding user agreement. It'll be interesting to see if Blizzard does take a step here.
I mean the outcry would be heavy. I mean I can see it coming "OH GOSH BLIZZARD ATTACKS MURDERS VALVE ZOMZGG!! WAR IS COMING!"

 

[Popcicle42]

I'm no legal annalist or a trademark expert...but two things:

1. DOTA refers to a map, not a form of game. Riot invented the term "MOBA" for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. If Valve were to trademark that, it'd be like Blizzard trademarking MMO.

2. IceFrog is not the orginal developer, so he and Valve can't lay claim to the map in the first place. The original developer has claim, not the guy who helped to perfect it.

3. Blizzard has the final say in the whole thing. It was made by their game: if anyone has the final say it'll be Blizzard.

--snip--

Quick responses:

1) Perhaps, but only if the term MOBA has become the standard for that style of game... which I don't think it has. It's a good idea by Riot, though. Facinating enough, while there are no video game related "MOBA" trademarks, there was at one point a company that attempted to trademark "Massive Multiplayer Online Experience"... which apparently is now "dead" (open and undefendable), likely because the company couldn't actually defend it, or that the owning company went belly-up.

2) This comment relates to patent and copyright, not trademark. Typically, the creator of a work automatically (in the US) has a form of copyright assumed by law. IceFrog, nor anyone else, has any copyright to the map, however, except for Blizzard - as stated before, in the fine print of Blizzard's contract of purchase, all maps created are immediately property of Blizzard, and the user forfiets his right of copyright to Blizzard. However, the game itself is not "patented", so nothing prevents someone from creating the effectively same game, with different models and names, with a different engine, that plays exactly the same. Patents are not automatically assumed to given when something is created, so Blizzard has no claim to it. In reality, all Blizzard has a patent claim to is the engine that they created for Warcraft 3... so if I created a "Dota" with a different engine, sorry, Blizzard, no dice. To confuse matters more, trademark is unrelated to either patent or copyright, and only deals with what you call a product, system, or service (and not what that product, system or service actually does, or even who created it). Like patent, it isn't automatically assumed, so Blizzard, nor the original creators or DotA, automatically have rights to that name. Assuming that the trademark goes through, Valve would have complete rights to the "DOTA" name (but not the map itself, or the engine in which it is created and played. Confused yet?).

3) As above. Assuming that the game is not a direct port (ie, the models, in-game names, and engine are different), Blizzard can only watch. Blizzard has the patent rights to it's game engine, the copyright rights to WC3's engine code, character models, names and icons,... and that's it. It's kinda like me making a first-person shooter; if I create the game using my own engine, my own graphics and own storyline, then Bungie can't sue me for creating a first person shooter because they created Halo (or, for that matter, iD for creating something "Wolfenstein"). Valve is making a game (presumably) that will have thier own models and game engine. Blizzard can't say boo.

4) Techinically, I'm responding to a point that doesn't exist... but you said at the top you have two things to say, then proceeded to say three. *big dopy grin* I do that all the time, too...

 

[antidonkey]

Shouldn't Blizzard have a say in all this? Afterall, it was made for their game and is the name of one of the battlegrounds in WoW. Something tells me Valve would get crushed under the weight of blizzard's wallet.

 

[Atmos Duality]

You know what would be funny? If Valve was intent of making a completely different game that just happened to have the abbreviation "DotA".

If Valve did indeed get the copyright to DotA, that acronym would also be protected.
That means anyone else wanting to use that same name in a similar context within the same market would not be able to use it.

Example?
Apple got into a trademark naming dispute with another "Apple" back in the 80s.
The difference between the two however, is that the second 'Apple' was a music recording company, and thus it was ruled that both companies could exist as they were because they did not directly compete.
As long as Steve Jobs's Apple never broke into the music recording/publishing business, the copyright law would respect his claim.
...Then the iPod blitz came along, and a struggling Apple Records sued back saying Mr Jobs did exactly what he wasn't supposed to do and violated their copyright, but Apple Records soon went under after filing the claim.

I imagine they settled the case out of court. (And I apologize if I butchered the names, as I did this purely from memory. The magazine article I would have referenced is unavailable.)

As for my opinion on the DotA dilemma...
This looks like Guinsoo and company firing off against Icefrog again, and the sole reason I can find is contempt.
Seriously. They already have their own successful DotA clone, and it doesn't use any previously copyrighted material, so why do they care? They think Valve will sue them for making a "clone" of a game they already own? Or are they just trying to kill off competition?

I can tell what reason it isn't though; they definitely aren't trying to "protect" the DotA name, or they wouldn't have severed themselves from that name to begin with!

 

[mxfox408]

Im suprised blizzard hasnt stepped in on this lord knows the activision nazi kotick would try to make it subscription based.

 

[AngryMongoose]

If valve just make a Standalone DotA, as the name "DotA" would suggest, aren't they seriously impeding on Blizzards intellectual property rigts i.e. the Warcraft Universe.

 

[lowbird]

Pendragon and Guinsoo are fools. Icefrog brought the game to where it is today. It is chiefly because of him that the game became and is still wildly popular. DotA pre 6.01 was poorly balanced and not nearly as popular as it has been since Icefrog took over.

That's just nonsense. Yes he brought the game to where it is today. But I played the original DotA back in RoC, long before there was a DotA Allstars in TfT, and no matter how much effort Icefrog might have put into the game, he would have had nothing to work with if not for the people that came before him. As far as I'm concerned, he has no exclusive right to a trademark. And Valve certainly do not either.
They can copy the gameplay (just like DotA did), but please let them come up with their own setting and name.

Im suprised blizzard hasnt stepped in on this lord knows the activision nazi kotick would try to make it subscription based.

Why Blizzard hasn't tried YEARS ago to add DotA to their lineup is one of the great mysteries of our time.

 

[Delusibeta]

but Apple Records soon went under after filing the claim.

Which would be impressive, considering they signed The Beatles. AFAIK they're part of EMI now.

Honestly? While I'd prefer it if neither of the two get the copyright, I can't help but feel that both are going to get away with it, considering they Valve applied specifically for "DOTA", while Riot has applied for "Defence of the Ancients", (and presumably DOTA too). Ultimately, I'd imagine the DotA AA community wouldn't be best pleased.

 

[DeadAccountMoveAlong]

Valve bought the creator of DOTA, the creator should have whatever say in how he uses his precious little mod. If he's tired of making a freeware game and wants to join the big boys, and he couldn't have picked a better company, then he should be allow to carry the name wherever he goes. The DOTA community, as the selfish internet hellspawn nerds they are, can properly shove it if the creator wants to tag with Valve. Besides it's not like their precious FREE mod is going anywhere.

-
Someones hating without knowing what he's talking about or reading past the title. Pen and Guinsoo also were responsible, and made their -own F2P DotA game. They started their own company, and are just as responsible for DotA as Ice, if not more. The two are arguing that DotA itself belongs to the community and nobody should "carry the name" or full ownership.
Don't be ignorant.
-

As a guy dealing with Pendragon's bs on the LoL forums for months, you sometimes forget he is more than a troll haha

 

[Delusibeta]

Someones hating without knowing what he's talking about or reading past the title. Pen and Guinsoo also were responsible, and made their -own F2P DotA game. They started their own company, and are just as responsible for DotA as Ice, if not more. The two are arguing that DotA itself belongs to the community and nobody should "carry the name" or full ownership.
Don't be ignorant.

I'm going to honk my Inaccuracy Horn here and point out that, according to Wiki [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Games] and Riot's own home page, Riot started out in 2006 and that Pendragon and Guinsoo joined Riot during the development of League of Legends. So yeah, slight inaccuracy there.

The problem is that for all we know, Riot and Valve could be both plotting to sink DotA AA by these measures, or they can be both grabbing the trademark to prevent other companies/trademark trolls doing exactly that. Who knows.

(Damn, there's my idea for a name if I create a video game developer gone...)

 

[Atmos Duality]

Im suprised blizzard hasnt stepped in on this lord knows the activision nazi kotick would try to make it subscription based.

They can't say jack shit. Because they don't own DotA. Nobody does (well, not yet anyway).

Blizzard owns the map coding, and editor coding, but NOT the concept (which can't be copyrighted anyway, that is like saying Adobe owns the content of every PDF file in the world).
They can say whatever they like in their EULA, but copyright law does not respect any claim Blizzard can make on DotA as a concept or as a name. Period.

EDIT: (Doh. Check messages more often)

Which would be impressive, considering they signed The Beatles. AFAIK they're part of EMI now.

Even the mighty can fall in due time. That, and 30 years of poor signing contracts.

Honestly? While I'd prefer it if neither of the two get the copyright, I can't help but feel that both are going to get away with it, considering they Valve applied specifically for "DOTA", while Riot has applied for "Defence of the Ancients", (and presumably DOTA too). Ultimately, I'd imagine the DotA AA community wouldn't be best pleased.

I don't see this ending well either way, because even if Pendragon and Guinsoo manage to win this, they can still effectively lose the copyright due to loose enforcement.
When you file for a copyright, it's up to the OWNER to determine how liberally it can be used by others, not the court of law.

For example, if I owned Mickey Mouse, and I let some random schlub make a movie, and then publicly OK that as long as they didn't make a direct profit. That's one thing.
If I let them make a movie, then sell merchandise based on that movie, and I don't call for a cease and desist, but later encounter another schlub making a movie in the same manner, I can't prosecute the latter dude because my first decision set precedent.
The law is made that way to prevent legal fraud while enabling artistic license without drowning it completely in impractical legalese.

Hence, why it's best to send a "Cease and Desist" statement to the offender BEFORE engaging them in court.

Now, that's an overly simplified butchering of the basics (get a real lawyer in here), but that's what's at stake here.
If Guinsoo and company win, they have to write up an open public license for it, AND enforce that license.
If Valve wins, then you can bet there will be no open public license, but that shouldn't matter because GUINSOO AND FRIENDS ALREADY DROPPED DOTA FOR THEIR OWN PROJECT.
That's why this baffles me.

 

[Nailz]

Shocking how Defense of the Ancients was never trademarked to begin with. DotA games need a Genre name damn it (Hero Defense?)! Tired of referring to games like them in terms of a MOD.

Games likeDOTA are called AOS after the original aeon of strife

Wow, I actually expected people to be much more enraged about this. Valve is buying the trademark of a community project and everyone is ok with this. It's like Microsoft would buy Wikipedia and the whole internet community would be ecstatic about the "better support" wiki's would be able to get....

/brain hemmorage

I KNOW, It's scary what people will do if they believe in someone. I think it has to do with alot of people dismissing dota as just another WC3 mod, very ignorant beliefs.

 

[Albino Boo]

Did it not occur to them that Valve are probably being the clever bastards that they usually are and will probably turn everything on its head by revealing something that has nothing to do with DotA but just happens to be called DOTA?

like Defence of the Ancestors?

Defiance of the Androids?

Defecating on the Anglo-saxons?

Dora on the Alps?

I think its Defenestration of the Americans

 

[DocBalance]

Let Valve have the damn thing. Maybe they can keep it balanced, and as we all know, everything Valve touches instantly turns into cash. Lots, and lots of cash, to be spent towards a mysterious project known as "Episode 3."

 

[Delusibeta]

If Valve wins, then you can bet there will be no open public license, but that shouldn't matter because GUINSOO AND FRIENDS ALREADY DROPPED DOTA FOR THEIR OWN PROJECT.
That's why this baffles me.

And (here's the kicker), the guy who they gave DotA to maintain[footnote]The last DotA patch was released 3 weeks ago[/footnote], IceFrog, is now a Valve employee. Presumably why there's been little or no rage about it, since Valve got their foot in the door when they hired IceFrog.

 

[Atmos Duality]

If Valve wins, then you can bet there will be no open public license, but that shouldn't matter because GUINSOO AND FRIENDS ALREADY DROPPED DOTA FOR THEIR OWN PROJECT.
That's why this baffles me.

And (here's the kicker), the guy who they gave DotA to maintain[footnote]The last DotA patch was released 3 weeks ago[/footnote], IceFrog, is now a Valve employee. Presumably why there's been little or no rage about it, since Valve got their foot in the door when they hired IceFrog.

Exactly.

I kept up to date on those events. If Icefrog (who by rights did FAR MORE than Guinsoo and Pendragon to keep DotA viable today) is all for giving it up to Valve, then who am I to argue?
It's not like the old free maps will just disappear. Valve/Icefrog will not contest ownership of those maps because it means challenging Blizzard over the code; Which is why I wrote up that long block of text talking about ownership vs concepts earlier.

EDIT: I didn't know you could post footnotes here. Nifty.
EDIT 2: Whoops. Put Kegsta down instead of Pendragon. Kegsta was original DotA, not Allstars.
Sorry Kegsta!

 

[L33tMarvin]

In my mind Valve should get it,they have a better track record.I think Guinsoo but mainly Pendragon is mad because it might dent LoL if it comes out(free).As of now,i rather see this dota then LoL, since Riot seems to nerf and never buff