DOTA2 or LoL?

[blazearmoru]

Just look at the posts talking about balance from a league of legends point of view, then look up one of the most banned heroes in DotA : Nature's Prophet.

While I agree with you in general you must note:

- Non fighting strats usually fail in pubs (that is in almost every game you will play) because the team won't have the discipline to carry them out.

- Furion is not one of the top bans, has not been for a long time. He is a medium/low priority pick/ban that has a niche place in splitpush strats that are out of the metagame atm.

Then there's the fact that a lot of the banned champs in LoL are either supports or tanks. Why? Because CC is King in LoL.

And, for the record, if I could rush a staff that shoves people around, I would. Singed's one of my preferred champs, and displacement's just fun.

CC is required to lock people down so damage can be dealt to them. Most of Leagues champs require them to build survival, damage amp, CDR, or raw damage. In fact, often in a certain build order as well. That's what I'm calling grinding gold to buy power to win fights. As for NP, he got nerfed like 3 times, fell out of the instapick/ban a few months back, and he's still being picked often. :|

Singed and his poison huehuehue no?

@Tanakh. You'd be surprised. Though most non-fight strats fail, once you get into a high enough mmr to read which team is advantageous in fights during what times of the game, fighting strats quickly become obsolete. It's rare to look at the graph and see a 50/50 cut. If you hold the clash advantage and you want a clash, you'll often have to force one inside enemy territory where the advantage may not be enough.

 

[Larcenist]

Tanks : stack survival
damage : stack damage
How is this not stack power? for the sake of a fight? :|
EZ is picked cus he can hit better, and can take more damage (by avoiding it) so he's basically someone who can fight from a distance and take massive punishments without dying. Sounds incredibly like I'M GOING TO FIGHT YOU!!!!!

I don't see anyone from LoL rushing blink dagger or force staff, mostly because AP/AD is the core mechanic of the game so the item can't even exist for LoL's intended mechanics. Shen's teleport is a shield used to aid and fight, to control small fights. He has a taunt, remember? His purpose is to be there in a fight. Nature's is mostly used to control the lanes and the map. He's pretty much the worst possible hero in a fight.

But if you must know, I find the whole thing about LoL's design around timed killshots, many of which can be dodged through quick reactions to be unique and fuzes with the core element of the entirety of the game about setting up fights. It's a good mechanic but it's still fighting, head on, to show that you hit harder dps wise after damage reduction due to things like armor, and dodge.

While much of this was true it doesn't really work that way since the pre-season 3 patch a while ago. Currently split pushing and teleport strats are very very strong since they remade certain items. Nidalee is a ridicously solid pick as of now since she can pick up a quick Warmog and just stay in top lane forever without dying unless 3 enemies go for her, which leaves the rest of the map open for objectives to grab. The current paradigm shift is something of both a blessing and a curse, since AD carries can in the worst of cases be made rather redundant (or just go back to the Urgot pick) since it is now much more about simply enduring constant poke while waiting for a moment to strike the objective rather than going for one big team fight.

I dare not say anything about the DotA 2 meta since I have not played the game in any recent time to be able to have a viable opinion, but for the countless years I played the meta stayed roughly the same, only with the addition of new heroes that bring multiple dimensions of gameplay. I just feel that IceFrog should finalize DotA 1 so that he can actually make use of the new engine and make DotA 2 unique. Still, both games are amazing and you'll spend countless hours playing either one of them.

Edit:
Hopefully Riot is going in the right direction with items as well, giving more utility actives. They did finally include a toggle item as well as a few single target buff items (though these are just buffs, no dispositioning utility or similar to Force Staff). They should really trust the community just a little more than they do and include items that bring a new dimension to gameplay.

 

[JaceArveduin]

CC is required to lock people down so damage can be dealt to them. Most of Leagues champs require them to build survival, damage amp, CDR, or raw damage. In fact, often in a certain build order as well. That's what I'm calling grinding gold to buy power to win fights. He got nerfed like 3 times, fell out of the instapick/ban a few months back, and he's still being picked often. :|

Singed and his poison huehuehue no?

Oh I wasn't saying that you weren't damaging the other team or building for damage, but that most of the time CC is even more important than just raw damage. The only people that get away with just doing raw damage are either being protected, or hit hard enough they can kill their target and use whatever escape ability they have. And, for the record, you can use a split-push strat in league, you just have to build around it. Hell, way back when, the meta was heal/poke siege warfare.

 

[blazearmoru]

Oh I wasn't saying that you weren't damaging the other team or building for damage, but that most of the time CC is even more important than just raw damage. The only people that get away with just doing raw damage are either being protected, or hit hard enough they can kill their target and use whatever escape ability they have. And, for the record, you can use a split-push strat in league, you just have to build around it. Hell, way back when, the meta was heal/poke siege warfare.

Yea I see what you're saying. Now I finally get a glimpse into why LoL is always complaining about DotA's stun times.

Edit:
Hopefully Riot is going in the right direction with items as well, giving more utility actives. They did finally include a toggle item as well as a few single target buff items (though these are just buffs, no dispositioning utility or similar to Force Staff). They should really trust the community just a little more than they do and include items that bring a new dimension to gameplay.

I don't think that's going to be easy. Think Euls scepter DotA, 2800g. It's basically hourglass on crack. I agree with you though. LoL is very much twitch/position reaction based in comparison to DotA's large scale strategy base and items like euls and forcestaff would probably only add to the game rather than take away from it.

 

[Larcenist]

I don't think that's going to be easy. Think Euls scepter DotA, 2800g. It's basically hourglass on crack. I agree with you though. LoL is very much twitch/position reaction based in comparison to DotA's large scale strategy base and items like euls and forcestaff would probably only add to the game rather than take away from it.

Yeah Eul will not happen, though Guinsoo should very well be possible since there's only Lulu that has a polymorph ability in the game. I think that Force Staff should work in LoL since most new champions come with dispositioning of some sort already (heck just check out Thresh if you haven't already), at least we have a few options now apart from the AoE buff/debuff items that were the only ones available before. It will be very interesting to see how both games develop in the future.

 

[JaceArveduin]

Oh I wasn't saying that you weren't damaging the other team or building for damage, but that most of the time CC is even more important than just raw damage. The only people that get away with just doing raw damage are either being protected, or hit hard enough they can kill their target and use whatever escape ability they have. And, for the record, you can use a split-push strat in league, you just have to build around it. Hell, way back when, the meta was heal/poke siege warfare.

Yea I see what you're saying. Now I finally get a glimpse into why LoL is always complaining about DotA's stun times.

Yeah, that's exactly why. Without any modifiers, one of the champs in the game with the highest potential CC has a 1.25 second on hit stun, a .5s snare, and a 1.5 second stun in a smallish aoe, so 3.25 seconds worth of stun, if you pull it off perfectly.

I'm fairly sure DOTA has people with stuns longer than that on one skill. Though League does have some things that last for ages, like Fiddle's fear is 2.5 seconds if memory serves, and most silences have a decent time, with Cho's maxing them at 4s.

 

[Uszi]

Yeah Eul will not happen, though Guinsoo should very well be possible since there's only Lulu that has a polymorph ability in the game. I think that Force Staff should work in LoL since most new champions come with dispositioning of some sort already (heck just check out Thresh if you haven't already), at least we have a few options now apart from the AoE buff/debuff items that were the only ones available before. It will be very interesting to see how both games develop in the future.

I'm suprised that the LoL devs have said that they specifically didn't want to add force staff, since changing the enemies position is one of the most popular forms of CC in LoL (Singed, Lee Sin, etc). Comparatively fewer characters in DotA change enemy position like that.

Yeah, that's exactly why. Without any modifiers, one of the champs in the game with the highest potential CC has a 1.25 second on hit stun, a .5s snare, and a 1.5 second stun in a smallish aoe, so 3.25 seconds worth of stun, if you pull it off perfectly.

I'm fairly sure DOTA has people with stuns longer than that on one skill. Though League does have some things that last for ages, like Fiddle's fear is 2.5 seconds if memory serves, and most silences have a decent time, with Cho's maxing them at 4s.

I think the longest League of Legends hard stun is 2 seconds, but it will be less than that practically speaking because of Tenacity.

I think just about every stun at max level is at least 2 seconds in DotA. And then you have the really hard CC like Enigma or Magnus, who's ults are 4 second stuns. If Earth Shaker pulls of his initiation combo properly, its 4.75 seconds of stun.

But Riot has specifically not given any one character the initiating power that Magnus or Enigma has in DotA. And I think these characters aren't imbalanced in DotA because they can be counter picked and they can be shut down. There are tools for dealing with them in DotA.

Reminds me of how LoL players complain about Eve. Because stealth is so under utilized in LoL -- there's what, 10 characters with some form of stealth, Eve, Twitch, Teemo, Talon, Shaco, Rengar, Kha'Zix, Akali, Vayne, Wukong. So 10 out of 110 champions use some form of stealth. Of that, really only Eve, Teemo and Twitch have long duration stealth. So there really isn't stealth game play in LoL, when only three champions in 110 have meaningful stealth that requires a counter.

Compare that to DotA where you have Stealth Assassin, Clinkz, Nyx Assassin, Weaver, Templar Assassin, Mirana, Phantom Lancer, Sand King, Bounty Hunter and Brood Mother who all have long duration stealth. On top of that, Mirana's ult can make whole teams go invisible and there's an item in the store which lets anyone use stealth. In DotA there is enough stealth game play that it isn't comparatively broken for only a couple heroes to use it, it makes sense to try and counter it.

 

[blazearmoru]

Ezreal is not picked because he "hits harder", Ezreal has something around an 80-90% pick/ban ratio because he has the utility to work well with practically anything.

Asking a question like "which game should I play" will get you nowhere

Tanks : stack survival
damage : stack damage
How is this not stack power? for the sake of a fight? :|
EZ is picked cus he can hit better, and can take more damage (by avoiding it) so he's basically someone who can fight from a distance and take massive punishments without dying. Sounds incredibly like I'M GOING TO FIGHT YOU!!!!!

Correction: Ez is picked because he has the ONLY teleport ability in the game that is able to avoid the CC on spells which would otherwise hit him. No other carry in the game has anything close to this.

Ezreal's teleport has a short, none interruptable cast time. A lot of Ezreal players use this to their advantage. It stops people like Leona from being able to Zenith Blade to you, and it stops people like Blitzcrank from being able to grab you. So while other carries are able to be shut down by the anti carries, Ezreal is simply able to avoid them entirely.

Also, armor was nerfed and Black Cleaver was buffed WAY too much, and it just so happens that it synchronizes with his Q quite well. And because of the reduced bonus that armor now gives, his Q is a lot stronger.

He also synchronizes with Iceborn Gauntlet too well. It turns him into a ranged carry with a ranged aoe frozen mallet.

Ezreal only turned overpowered in the preseason. Other carries used to be a lot stronger than him.

So you've corrected me by telling me how he's capable of escaping damage (and by relation, survive longer + eat up more spells) and still be able to do damage... also Black Cleaver was buffed WAY too much . Scroll up about the part where I was saying something about LoL players talk about balance in the form of "look at me hitting hard."

 

[Larcenist]

So you've corrected me by telling me how he's capable of escaping damage (and by relation, survive longer + eat up more spells) and still be able to do damage... also Black Cleaver was buffed WAY too much . Scroll up about the part where I was saying something about LoL players talk about balance in the form of "look at me hitting hard."

This is only ever really a valid complaint in the case of the current Kha'Zix and old Evelynn (before the DFG nerf). In the case of Evelynn it wasn't the champion herself that was overpowered, it was a single item that made her way too strong. Kha'Zix on the other hand is really the only champion that can currently jump out from out of nowhere, obliterate an enemy carry and get a reset on his jump to escape before you can really do something about it. He should be nerfed in the current patch though so I don't really know if this still is the case, but this was all a result of changing items to make more champions valid picks (which in turn will take a while to balance out). This will obviously be the case in any MOBA game when they change how certain stats work in order to make additional niches valid.

The most common balance method is changing a champion's base stats (Rengar and Riven had their base health regen and regen/lvl decreased drastically in order to stop them from completely dominate lanes with their sustain).

 

[blazearmoru]

So you've corrected me by telling me how he's capable of escaping damage (and by relation, survive longer + eat up more spells) and still be able to do damage... also Black Cleaver was buffed WAY too much . Scroll up about the part where I was saying something about LoL players talk about balance in the form of "look at me hitting hard."

This is only ever really a valid complaint in the case of the current Kha'Zix and old Evelynn (before the DFG nerf). In the case of Evelynn it wasn't the champion herself that was overpowered, it was a single item that made her way too strong. Kha'Zix on the other hand is really the only champion that can currently jump out from out of nowhere, obliterate an enemy carry and get a reset on his jump to escape before you can really do something about it. He should be nerfed in the current patch though so I don't really know if this still is the case, but this was all a result of changing items to make more champions valid picks (which in turn will take a while to balance out). This will obviously be the case in any MOBA game when they change how certain stats work in order to make additional niches valid.

The most common balance method is changing a champion's base stats (Rengar and Riven had their base health regen and regen/lvl decreased drastically in order to stop them from completely dominate lanes with their sustain).

I'm sorry I meant imbalance. In my mind it felt like the same thing but upon reflection, the two are very different. My fault there. By the way, good explanation.

 

[Larcenist]

I'm sorry I meant imbalance. In my mind it felt like the same thing but upon reflection, the two are very different. My fault there. By the way, good explanation.

Might've been me not reading deep enough, oh well we're on the same page now at least. Unfortunately there will always be a notable difference between tournament-level and public matchmaking-level, and developers will always focus on keeping the game balanced at a tournament-level before the latter. This result in people screaming "OP" or "imbalanced" at any little thing they encounter in the game that they can't counter-play. It is unfortunately something we simply will have to deal with, League players will scream when someone kills them in half a second because they couldn't adapt to the current gamestate, and I'm sure DotA players have something completely different that they use to vent their anger on whenever they lose a game.

Edit:

All I see is a bunch of stuff talking about how Ez has been OP forever and has never been balanced.

He only became this powerful at the start of Season 3. His cast time on his E is by far is greatest strength however.

I never once said he was OP, I said he has kept the top spot of ban/pick percentage in all big tournaments for quite a while not because he's ridicously strong but because he offers so very much to a team composition, much like how Furion in DotA isn't the strongest in his intended role but rather a great utility pick that forces the enemy team to adapt entirely to his gameplay.

 

[JaceArveduin]

Kha'Zix on the other hand is really the only champion that can currently jump out from out of nowhere, obliterate an enemy carry and get a reset on his jump to escape before you can really do something about it.

Technically, not true. You won't see it in any pro games, but an AP trist with DFG can dfg/land/ult to kill most squishies, and her jump resets on kill so she can jump away.

 

[Larcenist]

Kha'Zix on the other hand is really the only champion that can currently jump out from out of nowhere, obliterate an enemy carry and get a reset on his jump to escape before you can really do something about it.

Technically, not true. You won't see it in any pro games, but an AP trist with DFG can dfg/land/ult to kill most squishies, and her jump resets on kill so she can jump away.

Someone asked for big plays you've seen recently a while back into this thread and I linked this but I will link it again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdN67NuhMW4

50 seconds into the clip you can see Fnatic sOAZ on Kha'Zix completely obliterate SK's Ezreal in a matter of a second, shutting down a massive part of their damage potential while getting a reset to jump out of immidiate danger.

 

[JaceArveduin]

I think the longest League of Legends hard stun is 2 seconds, but it will be less than that practically speaking because of Tenacity.

I think just about every stun at max level is at least 2 seconds in DotA. And then you have the really hard CC like Enigma or Magnus, who's ults are 4 second stuns. If Earth Shaker pulls of his initiation combo properly, its 4.75 seconds of stun.

The longest hard stun in League of Legends is 3 seconds.

Rammus' Taunt and Fiddlesticks' Fear are both 3 seconds at max level.

...

I think this little piggy is trying to get through...

Those aren't stuns, they're both hard CC, but not stuns. Taunt makes the enemy attack you, so rammus still takes damage, while fears make the target run around randomly, which can cause skill shots n such to miss. It's not much of a difference, the result is you're still boned, but it still is a difference.

 

[Uszi]

I don't think Taunt and Fear count as a "hard" stun. I was using the term "hard" specifically to indicate your character just sitting there, stunned.

Although, I suppose the distinction between a stun, a fear, and a taunt isn't really all that important.

 

[Uszi]

Someone asked for big plays you've seen recently a while back into this thread and I linked this but I will link it again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdN67NuhMW4

50 seconds into the clip you can see Fnatic sOAZ on Kha'Zix completely obliterate SK's Ezreal in a matter of a second, shutting down a massive part of their damage potential while getting a reset to jump out of immidiate danger.

Wow. The end of that match was fantastic. What a fucking moment.

 

[Carnagath]

It's a matter of preference. I feel that LoL plays smoother, as in the champion animations are smoother and more... "believable", should I say? Dota 2 feels cumbersome compared to it, also the pathfinding is horrendous, if I don't hold my champion's hand they will never find their own way to the Roshan pit and get stuck on the surrounding edges. They will also often glitch out when ordered to go around a minion cluster. As for the gameplay, Dota has more depth, but they are both very complex games in terms of team composition and strategy, it will take you years to get a false sense that you "know everything" about either of them, only to see the pros do something that you never imagined. So yeah, I don't think that anyone will ever quit either of the games for the explicit reason that they have "hit the celing" and they are bored, so it doesn't really matter.

Gameplay-wise, LoL allows for more comebacks and is more forgiving than Dota. In the latter, a handful of mistakes will ensure that you will get steamrolled 100% of the time. Also, in LoL you occasionally get to at least attempt to play your champion in a teamfight before dying, while in Dota you will usually get 100-0'd within the (endless) duration of a single disable that hit you from the edges of the fog of war, while you stare at your screen like a helpless idiot. Doesn't mean it's bad, it just plays differently, engagements need to be way more thought out beforehand.

As for the community, there is no doubt in my mind that the Dota 2 community is ages better than LoL's. I've played about 50 games of Dota 2 and have had some ragers in games, but at least they are telling you what you did wrong instead of caps lock spamming. Compared to the insane asylum that is a typical LoL game, I felt that I was in heaven.

 

[TK421]

LOL has a rigid class based role system with a lot of heroes capable of playing these roles (AP mid, jungler, support, etc.) The focus is more on owning the opposite sides heroes and being awesome.

DOTA is less rigid with the concepts of roles, and has a lot of niche heroes that work differently. Leading to a lot of strange setups such as Trilanes (triple hero lane), double jungler, and many more.

Generally speaking in LOL you don`t have strange mechanics such as Denying (killing your own dudes to prevent the enemy from getting experience and gold), and a lot of heroes have 4 abilities leaving you with a lot of buttons to press in combat. LOL has cut down on the amount of stuff you have to think about and learn, but at the same time it is a veritable clusterfuck when you get into teambattles.

Dota has a lot more emphasis on passives, and generally speaking most heroes have just a few distinct abilities to complement their roles. Gold is more easily rewarded in Dota, as you loose out on some of your earnings should you die. This in turn allows you to do amazing comebacks 20-30 mins into the game rather than what usually happens in LOL whereby you simply surrender.

If you have no previous experience playing warcraft 3 or Dota then I would suggest starting with League of Legends. Not only is it free to play so you can try it out today, but Dota 2 currently needs you to possess a beta key to even begin playing it. Community is same for both games even if the LOL developers have taken steps to "correct" that, and the main differences lie in the roles that individual heroes can play.

However I would suggest leaving money out of the equation. Don`t buy any heroes in LOL until you feel comfortable and have hit the max level cap. Level progression in LOL is just awful (dont buy lvl 1-2 runes,and save your IP for lvl 3 runes). Try Dota when you have a key. I think DOTA has more longevity because it has a lot of different modes, and a much more options built into its interface, and the metagame isn`t very rigid at all. Which makes for a wonderful spectator experience.

This sums it up pretty well, but I disagree slightly with the last line or two. The metagame in lol is really only rigid when your team thinks it has to be. You can play with wild tactics/odd champ choices and still easily win, especially because the enemy team is expecting the meta. Obviously, new tactics work a lot better with a pre-made then they do if you just get matched with random people.

OT: I would suggest LoL, simply because it is completely free and you don't need a beta key. Personally, I prefer the graphical style of LoL, and the gameplay as well, but since I've never met you I can't say what you would think.

 

[blazearmoru]

Gameplay-wise, LoL allows for more comebacks.

I agree with most of what you said, but this one is weird. You seem like you understand DotA a bit so let me try to lay it out.

1. AP does not scale.
2. AP starts out strong (2 second stuns + 700 total damage nukes at lv 6 + 40dps or so)
3. AD snowballs.
4. AD does not start out strong (hits for 50 damage +15 attack speed + 10% crit + 15% lifesteal + escape ability for a total of... 70dps! \o/)
And know this, these guys have about 600hp.

Usual result => AP heavy team will devour the AD heavy team early in the game, the reverse is true late in the game. The game is decided upon the decisions made, if the team in power can gain enough momentum to win the game before the other team catches up . These ADs can 1v5 you if you give them the opportunity.

[b/]Now let us look at the "gold loss" concept.[/b] We have already talked about how AP does not scale, so what happens if they lose gold? Now we already know that AD does 70dps without gold, what happens if they lose gold? In LoL, gold is mainly used to buy AP/AD/Tank items to improve the power potential of your chosen champion and so it's very likely that by falling behind in gold becomes useless. In DotA as I've already stated, many heroes have no need for gold and instead of spending it on themselves, they spend it on allies because AP does not scale. Now one may ask the question, what if an AD begins to snowball? How does one stop an AD DotA hero who's snowballing? Look no further, gold loss on death is here!

By the way, you're absolutely right about being stunned for 10 seconds. What you've missed is that we don't have cooldown reduction items as well as our mana pools isn't infinite like league of legends.

I have a question for you. Team A plans to shut down Team B's AD carry team by having AP heroes heavy team pushing so much that the ADs have to choose between farming, and defending. Team B commits a minimal amount to defense and instead, farms. Those who do defend, died for the sake of buying time for their team's AD carries to farm in peace. My question is which team is winning? .

 

[Carnagath]

snip

What I meant is not that comebacks in Dota are impossible, just that they are harder than in LoL. I don't know enough to go into detailed math about this, but from my experience pretty much every champion in Dota can snowball so hard if you make mistakes against them, that you pretty much can't return in lane. It also doesnt help that towers are much weaker than in LoL, so most champions that are fed can solodive you in the midgame and kill you within 5 seconds without danger. That is usually impossible in LoL, when disables last 1-1.5 seconds max and the tower chunks at least half of your HP during a fast dive, regardless of how fed you are. Hell, I've even had fed Snipers 100-0 me within 2 seconds from massive range without even taking a tower hit. Again, there is no way to do that in LoL, so you can attempt to play defensively and farm after making a mistake and come back. As for your comment about disables, I usually play carry so I get focused. There's nothing I can do about it. I've resorted to only playing Clinkz lately, so that I can at least stealth before teamfights and only engage after several seconds, and only when the cd of my stealth is almost up again.