Dragon Age 2: RPG Players "don't like change"

[BloatedGuppy]

The original post attempts to convey why there are so many DA2 "haters" out there, based on my own opinion of what is/isn't in the demo, and the new direction taken for the game.

It's not a reaction based on "Oh I'm gonna hate this game" even before it came out - which seems to be a common accusation. I played the demo as a precursor to pre-ordering. I just disliked it that much that I had no interest in the game. What I was attempting to do was to convey just why I didn't like it - not because I'm resistant to change, but that it moves to be VERY SIMILAR to any number of games that are already available. That's not CHANGE that's homogeonisation. Dismissing this complaint as "resistant to change" is absurd.

Guy, you haven't played the game. You played a tiny demo that is not particularly representative of the game. You're more than free to make purchase conclusions based on that...this is the point of demos...but you can't seriously weigh in on any discussion about what the game does or does not lack based on that microscopic experience. You are speaking from a position of ignorance, because you have nothing but projections to base your opinion upon.

As for the OP, I'm a fan. I've been a fan of Bioware since it's inception, and I've been a fan of RPGs a lot longer than that. I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions. Please stop speaking as though you are the mouthpiece for an entire generation of RPG fans.

And yes, this could have gone into any of the other NUMEROUS threads on the topic.

 

[D Moness]

http://www.vgchartz.com/

Dragon age 2 700 k
DAO 3.2 Million

Anything else you wana add?

Yeah same like before you are not talking for me saying all the fans hate it is still bullshit.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Dragon age 2 700 k
DAO 3.2 Million

Anything else you wana add?

Yes. Why are you comparing 4 day sales totals to total lifetime sales totals? Do you think there's any information to be gleaned from that? Or do you just find random numbers really exciting?

 

[Worgen]

I think its more then that, da tickled a spot that allot of game makers have ignored for a very long time and da2 decided to go the more actiony route it pissed them off because it ment that instead of getting a game that tickled that spot, we got one that was much more similar to allot of other games that have come out

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Having seen and played a bit of both games, I'm happy that DA2 has improved on the combat and skill trees, but the dialouge choices from DA:O were better than DA2, IMO.

And the copy-paste dungeons were cute - when it was done in Diablo 1. And there are a couple of friend AI issues, but those carried over from DA:O so it's a minor gripe.

Still, I love Varric though. Makes me wish I had a ringtone of his voice with some of his quotes. He's a dwarf I'd love to share a pint with.

 

[Meggiepants]

*shrugs*

It's all going to come down to sales no matter what we say. Bioware will try to accommodate the complaints, they are still one of the companies that claims to really read all the feedback on their forums. But the fact is, they are currently owned by EA, who sets the calendar and hires the people. From everything I have heard, one of the reasons Bioware put DA2 out so quickly is because EA wanted more triple A titles in their release schedule for this year. It all comes down to the bottom line.

I for one, enjoyed DA2. But I also accept that if it doesn't sell enough units, they will probably try to create a game closer to the old formula. However, I also know that if they do that, we won't likely see a DA3 for another 3-4 years, since DA:O took nearly five years to make, and DA2 just a little over a year.

In terms of profits, EA might not care that DA2 sells a third of the units if it takes a third of the time to make. If they manage to sell half the units of DA:O, EA will still consider it a benefit to rush the game out faster, because the per year profit on that model is higher.

Whatever they decide, I for one, am fine with it. I loved both games for different reasons. They both have their flaws, but I played the hell out of both. So for me, I'm good either way.

 

[Xanthious]

I, unlike the OP, have played DA2 so allow me to rip it to shreds. First and foremost if there was ever, in the history of gaming, a game that was poorly slapped together and rushed out of the studio in the sole attempt to cash in on the success of it's predecessor it's Dragon Age 2. Everything in this game reeks of laziness.

Let's talk about combat and the notion it's "streamlined". Bull shit! It's dumbed down to the point of being damn near a button mashing hack and slash game. Every attack is "press button to make something super awesome" happen. The smart tactics based combat of the first one is thrown out the window in an attempt to dumb down the game to cater to the larger sloping browed console audience.

Next, let's kick a dead horse some, there are the maps. Does anything scream laziness like using the same three (maybe four) maps over and over and over again? This is Bioware, people expect better from them. The person who made that decision deserves to lose their job. That is the kind of thing I would expect from the lowest kind of indy developer not a company like Bioware.

Then there is the decision to have the enemies spawn out of thin air in waves. Really? Really? Compare this, again to the smart tactics driven combat of the first one for a minute and tell me this is anything but an attempt to artificially and needlessly prolong fights.

Now lets talk about items. Oh yeah, items. Laziness rears it's ugly head again rather prominently in this area. Why is the main character the only one I can upgrade to any real degree? The main character is fully customizable but they couldn't be bothered to take the time and apply that to the companion characters as well? Then there is "junk" which reeks of the developer just throwing random shit in to pad out drops more.

Oh and the conversation wheel. I understand that it's made for your typical console gamer and as such having pictures go along with the text can be helpful but for those of us that are literate it's just the same three options for every bloody conversation and it is just boring and repetitive.

For a game that was supposed to a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate it plays and feels more like the love child of Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins if it was aborted halfway through and left to rot in the sun. It was obviously designed by committee and dumbed down to cater to the absolute lowest common denominator and in doing so took what was once a promising franchise and shit all over it.

Bottom line is that Bioware is slowly becoming just another cog in the soulless machine that killed and devoured it. This is the first of what I expect to many upcoming releases that are needless and insulting cash grabs. The Bioware I used to praise heavily is dead and buries and whatever this company is that took it's place can go bugger themselves for all I care.

 

[Something Amyss]

\
You'd think there was a pattern or a reason for so many of these threads popping up... but it can't be, must be coincidence and they're all haters!

http://i.min.us/immPqa.png

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6716182/1

Q: Who are you and what is your job on the DA2 team?

A: Hello! My name is Yaron Jacobs, lead level designer of the game. I'm Israeli and I've been working here at BioWare for 8 years.

Q: Could prolonging development time for the game result in a better variety within the city itself and avoiding reused areas, as seen in the game?

A: Obviously, more time would enable more areas and bigger variation. Honestly, we did not expect this to be such a big deal, but it seems the subject gave rise to a significant number of complaints by both critics and players alike. We listen to the reviews and we will try to address the issue in future games.

Q: Why are the city's streets not as crowded as one can expect from a city as congested as Kirkwall? Is it due to technical limitations?

A: Yes, this is completely due to technical limitation. We had more people crowding the streets in early stages of development but we had to cut the number to be able to cope with the limitations of game consoles and low-end computers.


Q: Does every battle consist of enemy waves? What is your answer for all those people that claim the lack of ability to know the number of waves and where they will pop up causes a battle that consists of reactions instead of tactics and planning?

A: Part of the tactical game is adapting to changes. The waves might feel different, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. I do not agree with those that think the wave pattern is terrible as of itself, but I do agree that there are things it's possible to do in order to improve the use of the waves. We can use them less often and improve the breeding mechanic, for instance. All in all I think the waves are an excellent addition to the game.

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars. How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

Wow. That whole FAQ is kind of...Disheartening.

It's also disheartening that any complaint against a game these days is relegated to "haters gonna hate."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I thought I would include this little blurb from gamespot regarding EA's fiscal losses in 2009/10, do you think it had influence on the short development time for DA 2?
http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragonage/news.html?sid=6249940

DA 2 (For the First Week) (NB: don't know if this contains direct to download)
X360- 392,508 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/44012/dragon-age-ii/
PC- 143,830 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/44010/dragon-age-ii/
PS3- 163,410 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/44011/dragon-age-ii/

DA Origins (For the First Week) (NB: this does not include Awakenings)(NB: don't know if this includes the ultimated edition sales/ direct to download)

X360- 335,941( Total 10 week sales- 1,413,978/ Total Lifetime sales- 2,071,483) http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/33505/dragon-age-origins/

PC- I have no figures for the PC, however based on the link below Dragon Age Origins shipped 3.2 between November 2009- Feb 2010 across all platforms so based on the 10 week sales figures from the other platforms the PC sales figures were approximately1.3 million, again sorry I don't have any conclusive figures based on Total Lifetime sales
http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/6959/left-4-dead-2-dragon-age-origins-ship-3-million-units/

PS3- 155,660 ( Total 10 week sales-734,225 / Total Lifetime sales- 1,181,919 )
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/33502/dragon-age-origins/

So they're seeing roughly equivalent sales with 1/3rd the development time.

Mercy me, they must be shaking in their boots over at EA/Bioware.

 

[deth2munkies]

Counter point: A lot of us loved Mass Effect, a game where the traditional RPG combat was shunned for a 3rd person cover-based shooter. If that wasn't a helluva change, I don't know what is.

We hate change when it's BAD.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

We hate change when it's BAD.

This is why people who fear and hate change fear and hate change, though. They perceive it as bad. Even when it's empirically good, they see it as bad. "Bad" is a highly subjective term.

Also please, make your own arguments. Don't rally the phantom support of "a lot of us" or "we" as though you were speaking with the voice of legion. You are one person, and the most you can offer up is one person's opinion. Your opinion in this case appears to be "I hate change when I think that change is bad".

 

[Woodsey]

Does some things better, does some things worse, wasn't as good as it could have been, bring on Mass Effect 3.

Those are my feelings towards it - honestly, the failures of the game have nothing to do with the RPG-side, but the general design side. They should be applauded for trying something different with the story and structure, but the criticism for the recycled dungeons and such is just.

 

[Susurrus]

snip

I did try to make it clear that it was my opinion of why the game is disliked, by someone who fits into the old RPGer demographic.

Further: Whilst what you say is true, I have read any number of reviews, and the things that I didn't like clearly didn't change from the demo to the game:
I didn't like the concept of the conversation wheel.
I didn't like the new art direction
I didn't like the combat AT ALL - not the style, not the stripped-down ability trees, and not the waves of enemies - what on earth is the point in waves of enemies in a tactical game?
and
I didn't like the linear nature of the map.

If any or all of those are totally different in the game, fine, then I can't comment. But everything I've read suggests different.

EDIT: As the above poster mentioned, I don't mind what they apparently TRIED to do with the story - indeed, several mods I've played, and my own experiences with PS:T and other games suggest that setting an entire story within 1 city could be awesome - and I don't demand epic story from each - personal is fine. Many people seem to feel that it didn't really deliver, but that I can't comment on.

 

[ZeroDotZero]

What annoyed me the most was the blatant lack of consequence for your DAO choices and the blatant lack of DA2 choices. Gameplay was fine.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I didn't like the concept of the conversation wheel.
I didn't like the new art direction
I didn't like the combat AT ALL - not the style, not the stripped-down ability trees, and not the waves of enemies - what on earth is the point in waves of enemies in a tactical game?
and
I didn't like the linear nature of the map.

Conversation wheel is a subjective element. Some people love it, some do not.

The same is true of the art direction. Hate it or not, the graphics are objectively better than in DA:O, which looked aged even on release.

The ability trees are not stripped down. If anything they're expanded.

Waves of enemies is not the death of tactics. It is a different form of tactical thought, but tactics are still applied. This has been a source of some confusion for me, this deeply rigid concept of what "tactics" means when applied to gaming. I can assure you the game required thought and strategy on Hard. Did it play differently than DA:O? Yes. My girlfriend is replaying DA:O as we speak. The combat feels cumbersome and awkward, and is no tactically richer, and there are STILL waves of reinforcements.

DA:O featured similarly linear maps. Bioware games are not Bethesda games, you are piped through a story and piped through environments. This is not a change, this is an ongoing feature.

In short, you are welcome to your opinion, but they're not terribly well informed, and by chiming in with "YES I BELIEVE THIS IS WHY THE GAME FAILS!" you're not doing the dialogue any favors. You're not a bad person and I'm not trying to wail on you for letting your fears and biases be confirmed by negative opinions, but you might want to refrain from speaking with authority about things you've not actually done.

 

[deth2munkies]

We hate change when it's BAD.

This is why people who fear and hate change fear and hate change, though. They perceive it as bad. Even when it's empirically good, they see it as bad. "Bad" is a highly subjective term.

Also please, make your own arguments. Don't rally the phantom support of "a lot of us" or "we" as though you were speaking with the voice of legion. You are one person, and the most you can offer up is one person's opinion. Your opinion in this case appears to be "I hate change when I think that change is bad".

If you give me a ham/turkey/bacon sandwich every night for a week, then say "it's time for a change" and give me a sandwich filled with dogshit. I'm gonna say the change was bad.

If I'm used to dogshit sandwiches and you give me a ham/turkey/bacon club, I'm gonna love it.

Change itself is not inherently good or bad, but it can easily be measured. The fact that you think that the majority of Escapists don't like Mass Effect leads me to believe you haven't been here long or haven't been paying attention.

Can you argue that reusing and condensing environments is actually a benefit over having unique set pieces for each location? Has there ever been a situation in which reducing a vast world to the space of a few identical rooms been a GOOD thing? (I realize it's hyperbole)

Your contention is that because change exists in Dragon Age 2, it is being reviled because RPG fans are a bunch of sticks in the mud that despise change of any type, but that is patently false when you look at the long line of highly rated and loved sequels that innovated on their predecessors (Baldur's Gate 2 being a prime example).

Dragon Age 2 isn't bad because it changed, it's bad because it made a bunch of terrible design choices.

 

[Xrysthos]

Change is not always positive, but I think DA2 was a step in the right direction. It's a matter of personal opinion, of course, and while I have absolutely nothing against the DA:O approach to RPG's, i.e. the classic approach, there is much to be said in favour of a more fast paced game, with a playstyle that is borderline hack-and-slash. While I think that the recycling of dungeons was a little annoying, the game took place in a single city, as opposed to DA:O, where you traveled the entire country, so it is excuseable. While I prefer the classic approach, without conversation wheels and so on, I enjoyed Dragon Age 2.

BioWare seem to be attempting a hybrid between an action game and the RPG, and I think that's a good thing as far as console (non-PC) RPG's are concerned. They may not have hit the sweetspot this time, but you can't win if you're not in the game.

 

[Meggiepants]

It's after selling a whole lot more the DA:O so I doubt Bioware give a shit about 50 or so vocal old school gamers who are pissed it's not Baldur's Gate.

The game has it's flaws but is nowhere near as bad as they make out.

Um everything I have read is dragon age 2 sales are dropping fast give us some facts and links soundwave or go back to your cassette player. Its not nice to throw factual statements around without supporting documents.

I would think there is a classier way of making your point other than resorting to using an awesome vintage transformer as an insult.

Dragon age 2 700 k
DAO 3.2 Million

Anything else you wana add?

Yes. Why are you comparing 4 day sales totals to total lifetime sales totals? Do you think there's any information to be gleaned from that? Or do you just find random numbers really exciting?

I thought I would include this little blurb from gamespot regarding EA's fiscal losses in 2009/10, do you think it had influence on the short development time for DA 2?
http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragonage/news.html?sid=6249940

DA 2 (For the First Week) (NB: don't know if this contains direct to download)
X360- 392,508 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/44012/dragon-age-ii/
PC- 143,830 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/44010/dragon-age-ii/
PS3- 163,410 http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/44011/dragon-age-ii/

DA Origins (For the First Week) (NB: this does not include Awakenings)(NB: don't know if this includes the ultimated edition sales/ direct to download)

X360- 335,941( Total 10 week sales- 1,413,978/ Total Lifetime sales- 2,071,483) http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/33505/dragon-age-origins/

PC- I have no figures for the PC, however based on the link below Dragon Age Origins shipped 3.2 between November 2009- Feb 2010 across all platforms so based on the 10 week sales figures from the other platforms the PC sales figures were approximately1.3 million, again sorry I don't have any conclusive figures based on Total Lifetime sales
http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/6959/left-4-dead-2-dragon-age-origins-ship-3-million-units/

PS3- 155,660 ( Total 10 week sales-734,225 / Total Lifetime sales- 1,181,919 )
http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/33502/dragon-age-origins/

This is more like it.

Unfortunately for those who seem to loathe DA2, it certainly looks like EA will be pleased with this outcome, and will likely continue this model.

 

[SnakeCL]

I couldn't help but feel like, if there was a time to do a more open-world design for a bioware game, it was this game, considering how much of it takes place in a city. I just felt like this was a chance for a bit more immersion (lets walk from district a to district b) instead of quick-traveling from one district to another. Although, I think the relatively short development time made this idea impossible.

 

[Meggiepants]

Snip

You are playing this on a PC, are you not? If so, your point is taken.

However, I played both on the PS3, back to back. DA2 is markedly better on the console. Which would make sense, since DA2 was designed for the console, rather than the PC, so they were able to make the most of what the console had to offer. Unfortunately for PC users, that meant a downgrade for them.

I for one, was glad the teeth and eyes of the characters didn't look like wood soaked in coffee. But that's just me.