Dragon Age 2: RPG Players "don't like change"

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MrJoyless

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I have just started to tune out all the crying children screaming about dragon age 2 and how it has ruined their lives so bad that they MUST tell everyone how bad this game supposedly is.

Then i did some digging on what i now call "metacrybaby...err critic" just by clicking 4, yes 4 random 0.0 user reviews i saw 11 reviews of 0.0 from people multi reviewing DA2 to drive down its score.

Conclusion : a very vocal minority /v/ has decided to try and ruin this game for everyone, im just sad metacritic hasnt at least done some housecleaning on the multiple 0.0 review users.
 

Zeraki

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Another Dragon Age 2 thread, as if we didn't have enough already. At this point I don't care anymore, I enjoyed the game and that is all that really matters to me. Of course the game has annoying flaws, but so did Origins which I also enjoyed. Now how about that, I like both games. The only big complaint about the game I have is the laziness of the level design.

As far as complaints about combat strategy, I don't understand what people are talking about. Maybe the PC version is different, but I find myself using more tactics in Dragon Age 2 than I used in Origins.
 

BloatedGuppy

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deth2munkies said:
If you give me a ham/turkey/bacon sandwich every night for a week, then say "it's time for a change" and give me a sandwich filled with dogshit. I'm gonna say the change was bad.

If I'm used to dogshit sandwiches and you give me a ham/turkey/bacon club, I'm gonna love it.

Change itself is not inherently good or bad, but it can easily be measured. The fact that you think that the majority of Escapists don't like Mass Effect leads me to believe you haven't been here long or haven't been paying attention.

Can you argue that reusing and condensing environments is actually a benefit over having unique set pieces for each location? Has there ever been a situation in which reducing a vast world to the space of a few identical rooms been a GOOD thing? (I realize it's hyperbole)

Your contention is that because change exists in Dragon Age 2, it is being reviled because RPG fans are a bunch of sticks in the mud that despise change of any type, but that is patently false when you look at the long line of highly rated and loved sequels that innovated on their predecessors (Baldur's Gate 2 being a prime example).

Dragon Age 2 isn't bad because it changed, it's bad because it made a bunch of terrible design choices.
You quite predictably have focused in one the ONE OBJECTIVELY BAD CHANGE in DA2, the re-used environments, as the foundation of your entire argument. You don't go into any other changes, because you're perfectly aware that your like or dislike of them is entirely subjective.

So basically we have one measurably bad change...re-used environments...and your club sandwich is now a dogshit sandwich. You're right, that is a sane, rational, unbiased assessment of a game's quality.

Baldur's Gate 2 used the identical engine and had virtually indistinguishable gameplay from the original Baldur's Gate, so I'm not even sure what the heavens you're on about there. And Baldur's Gate got it's own share of critical lashings upon release. Phased real time was considered a soulless concession to twitch gamers and action fans over the stately turn based titles of yore, and famed RPG reviewer Scorpia trashed the game as not even being a real RPG.

So you know what? Unlike the myriad of flaws people see in every game that fails to catch their fancy, acknowledging that people react poorly to change in their hobbies IS measurable and observable. So pretending that it cannot possibly apply to you, or your hobby, or the people who enjoy your hobby, is a little suspect.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Calibretto said:
Fortunately sales will not reach DAO levels and most importanlty FORTUNATELY 30% of their user base will never buy a Dragon Age game on pre order again (like me fml I cant believe i bought this shiat game).
Can you tell me what the weather will be like in August? I have some time off and I really want to know if it's going to rain or not.
 

deth2munkies

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BloatedGuppy said:
deth2munkies said:
If you give me a ham/turkey/bacon sandwich every night for a week, then say "it's time for a change" and give me a sandwich filled with dogshit. I'm gonna say the change was bad.

If I'm used to dogshit sandwiches and you give me a ham/turkey/bacon club, I'm gonna love it.

Change itself is not inherently good or bad, but it can easily be measured. The fact that you think that the majority of Escapists don't like Mass Effect leads me to believe you haven't been here long or haven't been paying attention.

Can you argue that reusing and condensing environments is actually a benefit over having unique set pieces for each location? Has there ever been a situation in which reducing a vast world to the space of a few identical rooms been a GOOD thing? (I realize it's hyperbole)

Your contention is that because change exists in Dragon Age 2, it is being reviled because RPG fans are a bunch of sticks in the mud that despise change of any type, but that is patently false when you look at the long line of highly rated and loved sequels that innovated on their predecessors (Baldur's Gate 2 being a prime example).

Dragon Age 2 isn't bad because it changed, it's bad because it made a bunch of terrible design choices.
You quite predictably have focused in one the ONE OBJECTIVELY BAD CHANGE in DA2, the re-used environments, as the foundation of your entire argument. You don't go into any other changes, because you're perfectly aware that your like or dislike of them is entirely subjective.

So basically we have one measurably bad change...re-used environments...and your club sandwich is now a dogshit sandwich. You're right, that is a sane, rational, unbiased assessment of a game's quality.

Baldur's Gate 2 used the identical engine and had virtually indistinguishable gameplay from the original Baldur's Gate, so I'm not even sure what the heavens you're on about there. And Baldur's Gate got it's own share of critical lashings upon release. Phased real time was considered a soulless concession to twitch gamers and action fans over the stately turn based titles of yore, and famed RPG reviewer Scorpia trashed the game as not even being a real RPG.

So you know what? Unlike the myriad of flaws people see in every game that fails to catch their fancy, acknowledging that people react poorly to change in their hobbies IS measurable and observable. So pretending that it cannot possibly apply to you, or your hobby, or the people who enjoy your hobby, is a little suspect.
1) OK, so you're saying there is an objectively bad change with no real objectively good change, so objectively, it's a change for the worse. Where's the argument again?

2) BG2 expanded the world, expanded the classes, revamped the entire UI, and gave us an entirely new story. It doesn't have the number of gameplay changes that DA2 had over DA:O, but it was still quite a different game, and a vast improvement everywhere it innovated.

3) I'm not pretending that my own subjective tastes aren't influenced by stuff I like and react poorly (at least at first) to things I perceive as different in a bad way. But I'm not gonna come and spout off like my subjective opinions are fact without either hard evidence or a completely rational argument behind them. In this case, the rational arguments have already been stated by myself and others elsewhere a myriad of times. If you choose not to listen to reason, you are a fool. If you have your own rational arguments for why you think a change is good, by all means, make them. Just don't attempt to hide behind the red herring of "you hate it because it's change" to avoid having to defend what you actually say.
 

AVATAR_RAGE

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Pointer said:
This is exactly what happened with Mass Effect 2, albeit not so blatantly or backwardsly. Streamlining annoying and harder aspects of the RPG experience is good. I haven't played the game, but I have read up on the accusations against it. Honestly it just sounds like laziness. I saw that when I went to Denerim and visited all of the Back Alleys. Calling the same back alleys by different names is just a developer looking to cut down on costs. And Bioware is not a company that really needs to do that.
That problem comes back in force this time, with almost every dungeon a copy/past of the last, just with different corridors blocked off.

But even with it's faults it is still a great game. Though to be fair on Bioware they are undertaking 3 huge projects, Dragon Age, Mass Effect and the Old Republic MMO (which is costing the company a bomb), so eventually you will see the fruits of this corner cutting. It is just a shame it effects such a great game.
 

Meggiepants

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Calibretto said:
meganmeave said:
Fortunately sales will not reach DAO levels and most importanlty FORTUNATELY 30% of their user base will never buy a Dragon Age game on pre order again (like me fml I cant believe i bought this shiat game).
Moot point really. As I said before in an earlier post, the game doesn't really need to make as much money as DA:O as it took almost 1/4 the time to make. From a business standpoint, even if DA2 only sells half as well as DA:O, it's a win for EA.

As for what it will do to the franchise, if my Econ professors from way back in the day knew what they were talking about, big business doesn't really look that far down the road. At most, they look at a five year plan, and more often, they are looking at the next year. EA will only change if sales for DA3 are abysmal. And by then, Bioware may be onto a new project anyway, since they have indicated DA is a trilogy, not an unending series like FF.
 

SnakeCL

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I never really had a problem, myself, with the graphics for DA:O, but then, I played on PC.

 

BloatedGuppy

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deth2munkies said:
1) OK, so you're saying there is an objectively bad change with no real objectively good change, so objectively, it's a change for the worse. Where's the argument again?

2) BG2 expanded the world, expanded the classes, revamped the entire UI, and gave us an entirely new story. It doesn't have the number of gameplay changes that DA2 had over DA:O, but it was still quite a different game, and a vast improvement everywhere it innovated.

3) I'm not pretending that my own subjective tastes aren't influenced by stuff I like and react poorly (at least at first) to things I perceive as different in a bad way. But I'm not gonna come and spout off like my subjective opinions are fact without either hard evidence or a completely rational argument behind them. In this case, the rational arguments have already been stated by myself and others elsewhere a myriad of times. If you choose not to listen to reason, you are a fool. If you have your own rational arguments for why you think a change is good, by all means, make them. Just don't attempt to hide behind the red herring of "you hate it because it's change" to avoid having to defend what you actually say.
I'm saying there is one objectively poor change, and several subjective changes. Personally, I find the graphics improved, the conversations improved (I did not care for the mute protagonist after Mass Effect), the action improved, the difficulty curve smoother, and the streamlining of inventory functions a welcome improvement over DA:O. What I don't understand is the insistence that all RPGs must follow a very narrow formula to be worthy of merit. Bioware games have been heading in this direction since the change from the Infinity Engine to NWN. It's obvious their focus is on storytelling, not mechanics. These have not been mechanically rich RPGS for almost a decade, and DA:O was no exception.

Your subjective opinions are NOT fact, any more than mine are. As for the "rational arguments" you and "others" have put forward, oh yes there have been a ton. Such as:

"Fish brains please dont be so agressive we at the escapist enjoy our conversations on a mutual understanding of points and views. An embracing of cultures of colours and creed and accepting that to some Dragon Age 2 is a big pile of steaming $$%(&**, whilst to others who dont have much taste... for example those who go to mcdonalds rather then a nice restaurant it is a marvel of modern technology..That said people who only eat Mcdonalds cant really say much about restaurant dining but alas we forgive you."
So yes, you're quite right. Everyone who agrees with you is rational and orderly in their thinking, and everyone who disagrees with you is hiding behind straw men. Why even have a conversation about this at all?
 

Susurrus

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BloatedGuppy said:
Most of the complaints I've seen regarding conversation wheel are suggesting it sees a reduction in RPG elements, and compare it to BG/BG2. Clearly, I'm not alone in feeling that it reduces RPGness. It worked in Mass Effect but I didn't feel it worked in Dragon Age.

In DA:O, the linearity was bad in the deep roads, and largely fine elsewhere. Awakening improved on the linearity of the previous. The linearity in the demo was painful.

From what I could see in the demo, and subsequently confirmed, many spells got cut out because they were useless/redundant etc. Some of the ones I regularly used were cut for this reason. That's an annoyance. I already thought the spell list was low.

Sure, the art style is subjective, I accept that, but it certainly has leanings towards the button-mashing type of console games.

Thank you so much for commenting on my status as 'not a bad person'. I totally build up my own self-esteem entirely based on the opinions of nameless, faceless people.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Susurrus said:
Most of the complaints I've seen regarding conversation wheel are suggesting it sees a reduction in RPG elements, and compare it to BG/BG2. Clearly, I'm not alone in feeling that it reduces RPGness. It worked in Mass Effect but I didn't feel it worked in Dragon Age.

In DA:O, the linearity was bad in the deep roads, and largely fine elsewhere. Awakening improved on the linearity of the previous. The linearity in the demo was painful.

From what I could see in the demo, and subsequently confirmed, many spells got cut out because they were useless/redundant etc. Some of the ones I regularly used were cut for this reason. That's an annoyance. I already thought the spell list was low.

Sure, the art style is subjective, I accept that, but it certainly has leanings towards the button-mashing type of console games.

Thank you so much for commenting on my status as 'not a bad person'. I totally build up my own self-esteem entirely based on the opinions of nameless, faceless people.
Reduction in RPG elements? What's your definition of RPG? If it's "total freedom of expression", then you're not going to find it here or in any other CRPG, and you're likely going to have to resort to telling erotic stories around the campfire in Goldshire to approach the kind of character building freedom you get in PnP. If it's about picking conversation options you feel best reflect your character, then DA2 is no worse than any Bioware game including its forebearer, and is arguably significantly better than KOTOR or ME with their rigid "Heroic Good Guy" or "Slavering Bastard" options.

What is linearity? DA:O had small maps with defined paths you could travel on. DA2 has small maps with defined paths you can travel on. One is not a sandbox game and the other a shooter on rails. Both have a small amount of flexibility in how you approach certain quest hubs, but one is not notably different than the other in terms of linearity.

Your impression was incorrect. The skill system is not reduced in complexity.

Subjective as hell and now highly leading. Please explain how an art style implies "button mashing".
 
Oct 20, 2010
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Xanthious said:
I, unlike the OP, have played DA2 so allow me to rip it to shreds. First and foremost if there was ever, in the history of gaming, a game that was poorly slapped together and rushed out of the studio in the sole attempt to cash in on the success of it's predecessor it's Dragon Age 2. Everything in this game reeks of laziness.

Let's talk about combat and the notion it's "streamlined". Bull shit! It's dumbed down to the point of being damn near a button mashing hack and slash game. Every attack is "press button to make something super awesome" happen. The smart tactics based combat of the first one is thrown out the window in an attempt to dumb down the game to cater to the larger sloping browed console audience.

Next, let's kick a dead horse some, there are the maps. Does anything scream laziness like using the same three (maybe four) maps over and over and over again? This is Bioware, people expect better from them. The person who made that decision deserves to lose their job. That is the kind of thing I would expect from the lowest kind of indy developer not a company like Bioware.

Then there is the decision to have the enemies spawn out of thin air in waves. Really? Really? Compare this, again to the smart tactics driven combat of the first one for a minute and tell me this is anything but an attempt to artificially and needlessly prolong fights.

Now lets talk about items. Oh yeah, items. Laziness rears it's ugly head again rather prominently in this area. Why is the main character the only one I can upgrade to any real degree? The main character is fully customizable but they couldn't be bothered to take the time and apply that to the companion characters as well? Then there is "junk" which reeks of the developer just throwing random shit in to pad out drops more.

Oh and the conversation wheel. I understand that it's made for your typical console gamer and as such having pictures go along with the text can be helpful but for those of us that are literate it's just the same three options for every bloody conversation and it is just boring and repetitive.

For a game that was supposed to a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate it plays and feels more like the love child of Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins if it was aborted halfway through and left to rot in the sun. It was obviously designed by committee and dumbed down to cater to the absolute lowest common denominator and in doing so took what was once a promising franchise and shit all over it.

Bottom line is that Bioware is slowly becoming just another cog in the soulless machine that killed and devoured it. This is the first of what I expect to many upcoming releases that are needless and insulting cash grabs. The Bioware I used to praise heavily is dead and buries and whatever this company is that took it's place can go bugger themselves for all I care.
Time and again this is why i play Dungeons and Dragons. I liked Oblivion, but it was flawed. DA2 is worse in many ways, but you cant be free of the pain of life until you Die Inside and realize that the fantasy version of a Baldur's gate like game where you can take indidvidual control of a character and personally pwn npcs won't exist for reasons developers will never release. Similarly a good fps/ rts doesn't exist- And I mean a good, widely played one so pre-emptively can it yáll. You will eventually be delighted by some close approximation (oblivion, NwN 1 ) It's also good to remember that what you imagine when they describe the game in a blurb, and what they imagine, are DIFFERENT. On Tactics: Just where would the Champion gain this info? So it's hard responding to swarm tactics from the ground with a sword- that's fantasy gaming Brosef. The reason it sucks in Video games is that everybody forgets UTILITY MAGIC!

At he end of it all though, I agree that RPG and button bash hack and slash are not right. Combat should be more personal and fluid, a la Fight Night round 3. At least they're marching towards a bright front.
 

Zer_

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ZombieGenesis said:
Dragon Age 2: RPG Players "don't like CopyPasta dungeons."
This. I'm one of those people who really enjoyed Mass Effect 1/2, but that's because I see them more as great action games than classic RPGs.

DA:O was a very classic styled RPG with a few action elements thrown in. It wasn't perfect, but it was good. The world was interesting, and the environments good looking.

DA2 throws everything that was good about DA:O out of the window. To add insult to injury, the varied environments we come to expect from a BioWare game simply aren't there.
 

Levethian

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Agree with you, Susurrus.

Change is fine. Homogenisation represents a really bleak future.

BloatedGuppy said:
So yes, you're quite right. Everyone who agrees with you is rational and orderly in their thinking, and everyone who disagrees with you is hiding behind straw men. Why even have a conversation about this at all?
Take a few deep breaths, Guppy, lest you begin to sound like a brat.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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Calibretto said:
Oh wait
http://www.vgchartz.com/
700 thousand compared to DAO 3.2 million GG NO RE.
You're not really proving your point by comparing first week sales with lifetime sales.

Links are all in this thread:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Dragon-Age-II/Dragon-Age-II-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-allowed/Dragon-Age-2-first-week-sales-figures-vs-Dragon-Age-Origins-Interpretation-6678682-1.html


Calibretto said:
Um everything I have read is dragon age 2 sales are dropping fast give us some facts and links soundwave or go back to your cassette player. Its not nice to throw factual statements around without supporting documents.
Confrontational little fellow, aren't you?
 

MiracleOfSound

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Calibretto said:
Oh my little mermaid please.
Dont get your tail in a spin.
Do you understand that Mass effect is Mass effect?
And Dragon Age is Dragon Age?
Mixing the two is like putting McDonalds at a fine dining restaurant....
And yes I know.... You would like to get Mcdonalds EVERYWHERE.. but you gotta understand..
Some people like duck ala orange or a Blanquette de veau you cant have McDonalds everywhere.
Fish Brains its ok to have your opinion but understand... Its a silly one.
I mean silly opinions are ofcourse completely validated and even can get political backing ( take the neo cons for example).
But the sooner you realise that Mcdonalds is not Quiche Lorraine the sooner you will understand that there are many colours to the rainbow.. Not just a Big Mac.
Can I please have some of whatever you're smoking/snorting/injecting? I could use some down-time.
 

Ascarus

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Susurrus said:
Over and over and over, this charge appears everywhere. From the lead designer of DA2, Mike Laidlaw, to almost every lover of Dragon Age 2. "BW fanboys are bitter, stuck in the mud, and if we follow them, RPG games will never, ever evolve."

That's fine, as far as it goes. It makes sense to not stay in the past, and, as a long-time RPGer, I have to confess that I've taken this view more than once. For me, NWN was an abject failure of a game, leading to me not buying NWN2 until two years after release (which in hindsight is rather gutting, because I loved it). At the time, I wondered if the port to 3d was at the root, and that perhaps 2d would be better. That was short-sighted and incorrect - it was the abysmal, disjointed story that was the problem, not the graphics.

So seeing this charge levelled against long-time RPGers, I could understand the sentiment.

But I think this time, the new fanboys (those of DA2), and Mike Laidlaw, have got it completely the wrong way round.

Dragon Age was a fairly big change-up from the old DnD system Bioware was more familiar with, but was largely approved of. The combat system was new and different, the world a different entity, its mechanics (overly complex perhaps, even compared to DnD), but new.

What those moaning about DA2 are moaning about is NOT change. It is familiarity. The charges levelled against DA2, are that its a console game - and I choose here to allow them some charity, because I don't think this is the clamouring of PC gaming elitists. Truly.

I think its against something different: the type of game that ends up on consoles. Everyone's played them: the button-bashing, no-thought-required games that are all flash and pizzazz, and that are brilliant for what they are - time-consumers, a bit of relaxation, great to play with friends - but not the kind of thing that outlives its generation. The console has more of these than the PC, I suspect because the limited number of buttons, the more relaxed image of the console-player as a gamer, and the more communal nature of the activity. But for whatever reason, they're flash-in-a-pan games. The next big thing that swiftly becomes forgotten.

The RPG crowd are rejecting what they see as a step towards this kind of game. The flashy, quickly-developed money-spinner, that is soon forgotten for the next thing. They are familiar with it, and the very fact that they play RPGs is a sort of rejection of this model of gaming. Fans of NWN are STILL developing modules for it. The same is true of NWN2. Fans have dedicated ten years or more to these games - something that even its biggest fans, will, i suspect, acknowledge is not possible in Dragon Age 2 (and to a lesser extent, Dragon Age). IN this regard, I don't think DLC is a bad way to go - it allows developers to continue to gain money from long-time obsessions, so that they can justify such long development cycles.

What the fans wanted from Bioware, what they had come to expect, were instant classics, brilliant for their story. What they had rejected were those games that were flash, with little substance. Laidlaw's statement effectively states that: flashy games with small development cycles are the way the industry is developing, the way we are moving, get over it.

But this is not what the fans want, is not the type of game the old fans want, that I want: Bioware gains a significant income from its old fans, precisely because they're the last bastion of true RPG gaming in an industry that is increasingly moving in another direction. Is it any surprise the fans don't like that?

Yes, it's change, but it's change to become increasingly like everything else - a trend that Bioware, with Black Isle, initially gained so much money - and so many fans - from bucking. The fans are clamouring for difference. Its Bioware's move towards homogenization that is the problem.
well thought out, well stated, well written ...

i completely agree.
 

HonestJoe

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D Moness said:
HonestJoe said:
Like it or not, the fact is Dragon Age 2 disappointed many people for many reasons. Said people have chosen to go online to vent their frustrations, probably because their friends/loved-ones aren't terribly interested in listening to them.
Except that almost every hate topic is about all the fans of DA:O hate DA 2. That is NOT the case some fans like DA 2 more or even the same. Thinking your opinion is the same as all the fans in the world is just being arrogant.

Yes many people dislike the game. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it. What do are NOT entitled to is speaking like they are speaking for the whole community.
I don't think anyone has announced that they're speaking for the whole community. If anything they are speaking to the entire community; airing their grievances towards a disappointing game to the wider gaming public.
I don't think any single poster has actually claimed to be speaking for every single gamer.
Although even if you you were correct in your assumption of the motivations of the posters on these threads, they are still perfectly entitled to speak in any manner they choose to.

Regardless, I think the original point of my post was sound. If you don't like reading threads bashing DA2, then stop reading them. All you're doing is raising your own aggravation levels, and that's a quick way to an ulcer.
 

ninja51

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Bioware is really going crazy that the general view on this game is its just meh. I dont think they can handle that people dont love their game completely and their desperately trying to rationalize it to themselves with every reason but the truth, it was lazily designed. Really Bioware, you guys can make great games, but this is just pathetic. This game is not that great, come to grips with it.