Dragon Age Designer Says DLC Not Meant to Rip Off Players

[scotth266]

/facepalms.

Listen, I've got a feeling this is going to turn into a massive argument so before we start lets define the purpose of DLC k bbz?

Downloadable content: "the phrase is used to refer specifically to content created for video games that is released separately from the main video game release."

We can agree that that's what it is? It's simply meant to add content to a video game. Now for an analogy, if I were to sell you a brand new computer, but not sell you the hard drive, well then I'm just as big an asshole as they are.

Your analogy is incorrect. DLC is not failure to complete a game: it is ADDITIONAL CONTENT. So in other words, it'd be like selling you a computer, but you have to pay a small amount to get an upgrade.

Would it not make more sense to release it at a later date, who needs DLC on day one. People haven't even had time to enjoy the game yet! Also, who the hell leaves the storage chest out of a RPG? That is money grabbing no matter how you look at it. They could've put the storage chest in the main game and oh, waited and made a better DLC maybe?

I still don't see why people bother to pay for DLC, when you buy a video game, you expect it to be finished. That's an important word there, finished. Once more for triadic effect, finished. If it has bugs or minor errors you can patch it. If you need to extend playability then it's alright to add DLC ( e.g. Broken Steel for Fallout 3), but to release DLC, something that's reserved for the end game usually, on the first day. That is low.

The WK DLC, to my knowledge, essentially gives you the WK as a home base once you finish the associated quest: something that you probably don't have the rest of the game. So it's less a Storage Chest, and more a Vault that you can only access from that location. In case you didn't notice, they GAVE A REASON as to why they couldn't include this feature in the game: there was a huge bug that they couldn't fix in time for release, because multiple storage chests caused problems. So they solved the problem by giving you only one, and sticking it in the DLC.

This also allows them to keep the game's atmosphere correct. It could be that the developers felt that the multiple storage chests undermined the feel of the game somehow. It certainly is a flow-breaker to find in every village a magic box that somehow teleports items you put in it in-between areas... a Vault, which is solitary and keeps the items you put in it in that location, fixes this flow-breaker and keeps the player managing their inventory, instead of constantly hoarding items in SC's. It helps my point that none of the reviews I have seen about the game have mentioned the inventory system in a negative way: this suggests that the Vault is not a necessity to play the game, but just something extra you get for the DLC.

Also, the GAME WAS FINISHED. This is ADDITIONAL CONTENT. How is a game that can provide over 100 hours of gameplay "unfinished?"

Well let me take this apart backwards.

First of all, as you said the PC version was finished quite a while ago, then surely the storage chest could've gone into that? And since when do developers give a damn about release dates? Have you not heard of Duke Nukem?!

Well I won't buy it but why the bloody hell are you releasing it? Do you actually have DAO finished and are craving for more? By sitting on something for a few months you can in fact sit back and improve it, maybe ask the community what it wants rather than stapling some sidequests together into a 7$ bundle to suck up to your publisher. I'm not blaming Bioware for releasing the DLC though, I know it was EA who forced them to do it, it's out of character for Bioware to do something like this. It's still a bad move though, it tarnishes the developers reputation not the publishers. Look at all the negativity it's already received leading to a thread on the Escapist where the devs claim they didn't mean to rip you off.

Hey, guess what: I have one word that totally undermines everything you've just said.

[HEADING=1]DEADLINES.[/HEADING]

Sure, some developers like Valve and Blizzard can basically ignore them: but the majority of developers CAN'T. Bioware had a deadline, in order to stick to it they had to cut some content. This content still got made thanks to the time gap that Virgil explained: half of it got released for free (Stone Prisoner) and the other half they're charging for in order to make up for the development/other costs.

THE GUY SAID EA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. Did you read the OP at all?

The only negativity coming out of this thread is coming from people like you who don't understand the way software development works.

 

[Amnestic]

Well let me take this apart backwards.

First of all, as you said the PC version was finished quite a while ago, then surely the storage chest could've gone into that? And since when do developers give a damn about release dates?

1) No, because they can't just write the DLC and then reprint all the DVDs they already made of the PC version.
2) Since their publisher said "We want it done by this date please." See: LucasArts and KotOR2 as a famous case of publishers pushing a game's release date. EA is there to make money, as is Bioware. They both entered into a contract and Bioware has to deliver. Unlike Blizzard (who self publish their games) they needed to hit that deadline and things needed to be cut otherwise they're breaching contract or something equally nasty sounding.

Well I won't buy it but why the bloody hell are you releasing it?

Because it's there to be released.

By sitting on something for a few months you can in fact sit back and improve it, maybe ask the community what it wants rather than stapling some sidequests together into a 7$ bundle to suck up to your publisher.

Since they said they have two years of DLC planned [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/95461-BioWare-Plans-Two-Years-of-DLC-for-Dragon-Age-Origins], I assume that asking what the community wants comes later. This was filling in some gaps that they didn't get to put on their final copy of the disk.

I'm not blaming Bioware for releasing the DLC though, I know it was EA who forced them to do it, it's out of character for Bioware to do something like this. It's still a bad move though, it tarnishes the developers reputation not the publishers.

Perhaps - but as you've also seen there are plenty who understand what Bioware have done and are more than happy to explain our views others who might not see it they way we do.

 

[Sevre]

/facepalms.

Listen, I've got a feeling this is going to turn into a massive argument so before we start lets define the purpose of DLC k bbz?

Downloadable content: "the phrase is used to refer specifically to content created for video games that is released separately from the main video game release."

We can agree that that's what it is? It's simply meant to add content to a video game. Now for an analogy, if I were to sell you a brand new computer, but not sell you the hard drive, well then I'm just as big an asshole as they are.

Your analogy is incorrect. DLC is not failure to complete a game: it is ADDITIONAL CONTENT. So in other words, it'd be like selling you a computer, but you have to pay a small amount to get an upgrade.

Would it not make more sense to release it at a later date, who needs DLC on day one. People haven't even had time to enjoy the game yet! Also, who the hell leaves the storage chest out of a RPG? That is money grabbing no matter how you look at it. They could've put the storage chest in the main game and oh, waited and made a better DLC maybe?

I still don't see why people bother to pay for DLC, when you buy a video game, you expect it to be finished. That's an important word there, finished. Once more for triadic effect, finished. If it has bugs or minor errors you can patch it. If you need to extend playability then it's alright to add DLC ( e.g. Broken Steel for Fallout 3), but to release DLC, something that's reserved for the end game usually, on the first day. That is low.

The WK DLC, to my knowledge, essentially gives you the WK as a home base once you finish the associated quest: something that you probably don't have the rest of the game. So it's less a Storage Chest, and more a Vault that you can only access from that location. In case you didn't notice, they GAVE A REASON as to why they couldn't include this feature in the game: there was a huge bug that they couldn't fix in time for release, because multiple storage chests caused problems. So they solved the problem by giving you only one, and sticking it in the DLC.

This also allows them to keep the game's atmosphere correct. It could be that the developers felt that the multiple storage chests undermined the feel of the game somehow. It certainly is a flow-breaker to find in every village a magic box that somehow teleports items you put in it in-between areas... a Vault, which is solitary and keeps the items you put in it in that location, fixes this flow-breaker and keeps the player managing their inventory, instead of constantly hoarding items in SC's. It helps my point that none of the reviews I have seen about the game have mentioned the inventory system in a negative way: this suggests that the Vault is not a necessity to play the game, but just something extra you get for the DLC.

Also, the GAME WAS FINISHED. This is ADDITIONAL CONTENT. How is a game that can provide over 100 hours of gameplay "unfinished?"

Well let me take this apart backwards.

First of all, as you said the PC version was finished quite a while ago, then surely the storage chest could've gone into that? And since when do developers give a damn about release dates? Have you not heard of Duke Nukem?!

Well I won't buy it but why the bloody hell are you releasing it? Do you actually have DAO finished and are craving for more? By sitting on something for a few months you can in fact sit back and improve it, maybe ask the community what it wants rather than stapling some sidequests together into a 7$ bundle to suck up to your publisher. I'm not blaming Bioware for releasing the DLC though, I know it was EA who forced them to do it, it's out of character for Bioware to do something like this. It's still a bad move though, it tarnishes the developers reputation not the publishers. Look at all the negativity it's already received leading to a thread on the Escapist where the devs claim they didn't mean to rip you off.

Hey, guess what: I have one word that totally undermines everything you've just said.

[HEADING=1]DEADLINES.[/HEADING]

Sure, some developers like Valve and Blizzard can basically ignore them: but the majority of developers CAN'T. Bioware had a deadline, in order to stick to it they had to cut some content. This content still got made thanks to the time gap that Virgil explained: half of it got released for free (Stone Prisoner) and the other half they're charging for in order to make up for the development/other costs.

THE GUY SAID EA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. Did you read the OP at all?

The only negativity coming out of this thread is coming from people like you who don't understand the way software development works.

Do you really believe EA had nothing to do with this? The most evil force in the industry till Actizard came around has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this. Yes of course.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2 and indeed, last year ME2 was said to be out by late 09. It still stands that they had months before the PC game was finished and the new release date. Now surely they couldn't have spent that time doing PR, because the only thing that turned up was a Marilyn Manson trailer and a CE. I could learn to code a damn storage chest and stick it in that time. They might've had problems, but you can fix problems with solutions. DLC isn't a great solution, it's a half assed way of saying "Hey, we should've probably done this a while ago, but you can pay for it now too right?". If they needed to stick in a storage chest they could do it in a patch like most people do. Don't give me that "distribution" shit either because we've seen what Steam, XBL and PSN are capable of. The fact is it's still a rip off to pay $7 for something that should be in the game. It's so simple to make a small patch and deliver a fix. Torchlight devs did it last week to one caring customer, should Bioware, who are quite large in comparison with many games under their belt, not do it for everyone? Who's stopping them from just making a patch with a vault and sticking it in the game? Hmm......now that you mention it EA might've had something to do with this after all.

 

[Sevre]

Well let me take this apart backwards.

First of all, as you said the PC version was finished quite a while ago, then surely the storage chest could've gone into that? And since when do developers give a damn about release dates?

1) No, because they can't just write the DLC and then reprint all the DVDs they already made of the PC version.
2) Since their publisher said "We want it done by this date please." See: LucasArts and KotOR2 as a famous case of publishers pushing a game's release date. EA is there to make money, as is Bioware. They both entered into a contract and Bioware has to deliver. Unlike Blizzard (who self publish their games) they needed to hit that deadline and things needed to be cut otherwise they're breaching contract or something equally nasty sounding.

Well I won't buy it but why the bloody hell are you releasing it?

Because it's there to be released.

By sitting on something for a few months you can in fact sit back and improve it, maybe ask the community what it wants rather than stapling some sidequests together into a 7$ bundle to suck up to your publisher.

Since they said they have two years of DLC planned [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/95461-BioWare-Plans-Two-Years-of-DLC-for-Dragon-Age-Origins], I assume that asking what the community wants comes later. This was filling in some gaps that they didn't get to put on their final copy of the disk.

I'm not blaming Bioware for releasing the DLC though, I know it was EA who forced them to do it, it's out of character for Bioware to do something like this. It's still a bad move though, it tarnishes the developers reputation not the publishers.

Perhaps - but as you've also seen there are plenty who understand what Bioware have done and are more than happy to explain our views others who might not see it they way we do.

What you just don't understand here is that this did not need it's own DLC. All it is is a storage chest which could've been patched in as explained in my previous post. You can say that "Oh but what about the WK quests? That couldn't possibly have fit into a patch!". Well fact of the matter is, it could've done nicely. Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

 

[Amnestic]

Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

Probably because it costs time, money and manpower to develop these things. Just a thought. Also, feel free to go poke at WoW's patchnotes once in a while and you'll see that they're more than happy to 'give out' content.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2

...was developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware. KotOR 1 was Bioware. KotOR 2 was Obsidian.

 

[scotth266]

Do you really believe EA had nothing to do with this? The most evil force in the industry till Actizard came around has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this. Yes of course.

One of Bioware's own people has said that EA is not involved. If you're not willing to accept that, please look below.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2 and indeed, last year ME2 was said to be out by late 09. It still stands that they had months before the PC game was finished and the new release date. Now surely they couldn't have spent that time doing PR, because the only thing that turned up was a Marilyn Manson trailer and a CE. I could learn to code a damn storage chest and stick it in that time. They might've had problems, but you can fix problems with solutions. DLC isn't a great solution, it's a half assed way of saying "Hey, we should've probably done this a while ago, but you can pay for it now too right?". If they needed to stick in a storage chest they could do it in a patch like most people do. Don't give me that "distribution" shit either because we've seen what Steam, XBL and PSN are capable of. The fact is it's still a rip off to pay $7 for something that should be in the game. It's so simple to make a small patch and deliver a fix. Torchlight devs did it last week to one caring customer, should Bioware, who are quite large in comparison with many games under their belt, not do it for everyone?

Once again: they might have decided that the multiple storage chests would have broken the game's balance or flow in some way. They DON'T SEEM TO BE NECESSARY ANYWAY, since NONE OF THE REVIEWS I've seen for the game mention how cumbersome the inventory system is. Please actually read someone's post before responding, ok?

Who's stopping them from just making a patch with a vault and sticking it in the game? Hmm......now that you mention it EA might've had something to do with this after all.

 

[Sevre]

Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

Probably because it costs time, money and manpower to develop these things. Just a thought. Also, feel free to go poke at WoW's patchnotes once in a while and you'll see that they're more than happy to 'give out' content.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2

...was developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware. KotOR 1 was Bioware. KotOR 2 was Obsidian.

Really? Damn those two companies for working on such similiar projects, and as you've pointed out Blizzard do give away a LOT in patches. So why don't Bioware release one tiny patch? Are Valve and Blizzard the only companies patches these days? If you look at many PC games, you'll noticed they've all been patched. So why don't Bioware make a patch? Once again I link back to EA here.

 

[Sevre]

Do you really believe EA had nothing to do with this? The most evil force in the industry till Actizard came around has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this. Yes of course.

One of Bioware's own people has said that EA is not involved. If you're not willing to accept that, please look below.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2 and indeed, last year ME2 was said to be out by late 09. It still stands that they had months before the PC game was finished and the new release date. Now surely they couldn't have spent that time doing PR, because the only thing that turned up was a Marilyn Manson trailer and a CE. I could learn to code a damn storage chest and stick it in that time. They might've had problems, but you can fix problems with solutions. DLC isn't a great solution, it's a half assed way of saying "Hey, we should've probably done this a while ago, but you can pay for it now too right?". If they needed to stick in a storage chest they could do it in a patch like most people do. Don't give me that "distribution" shit either because we've seen what Steam, XBL and PSN are capable of. The fact is it's still a rip off to pay $7 for something that should be in the game. It's so simple to make a small patch and deliver a fix. Torchlight devs did it last week to one caring customer, should Bioware, who are quite large in comparison with many games under their belt, not do it for everyone?

Once again: they might have decided that the multiple storage chests would have broken the game's balance or flow in some way. They DON'T SEEM TO BE NECESSARY ANYWAY, since NONE OF THE REVIEWS I've seen for the game mention how cumbersome the inventory system is. Please actually read someone's post before responding, ok?

Who's stopping them from just making a patch with a vault and sticking it in the game? Hmm......now that you mention it EA might've had something to do with this after all.

Reviews aren't nearly as thorough as you think, many reviewers get two days to a week or so with a game. People expect to be playing for over 200 hours here, I think they'll accumulate a fair amount of junk in that time which y'know a storage chest would be handy for.

It's not that it's a conspiracy, it's just that we've seen EA do this kind of thing before, I'm just saying I think it was EA's idea to release day one DLC rather than Bioware, because let's think here, if you were a game developer, the last thing you want to be doing on release day is releasing DLC or patches.

 

[Amnestic]

Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

Probably because it costs time, money and manpower to develop these things. Just a thought. Also, feel free to go poke at WoW's patchnotes once in a while and you'll see that they're more than happy to 'give out' content.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2

...was developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware. KotOR 1 was Bioware. KotOR 2 was Obsidian.

Really? Damn those two companies for working on such similiar projects, and as you've pointed out Blizzard do give away a LOT in patches. So why don't Bioware release one tiny patch? Are Valve and Blizzard the only companies patches these days? If you look at many PC games, you'll noticed they've all been patched. So why don't Bioware make a patch? Once again I link back to EA here.

Valve and Blizzard are both incredibly independent developers. While Valve still relies on other companies for its physical distribution (on consoles at least, unsure about PC?), the roaring success of Steam has made it a powerful giant in its own right. Blizzard, similarly, self-publishes everything. They don't even publish their games through partner-company Activision. It's all done in house.

Bioware, conversely, are not so independent. They have neither their own digital distribution platform nor their own publishing firm. Why don't they release it as a patch? My guess is they can't, either due to contract, monetary reasons or performance issues.

But I can't really say, you'd probably have to ask the CEO of Bioware and - sadly - I'm not him.

 

[Sevre]

Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

Probably because it costs time, money and manpower to develop these things. Just a thought. Also, feel free to go poke at WoW's patchnotes once in a while and you'll see that they're more than happy to 'give out' content.

Now I'm sure Bioware have avoided deadlines before, with KOTOR 2

...was developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware. KotOR 1 was Bioware. KotOR 2 was Obsidian.

Really? Damn those two companies for working on such similiar projects, and as you've pointed out Blizzard do give away a LOT in patches. So why don't Bioware release one tiny patch? Are Valve and Blizzard the only companies patches these days? If you look at many PC games, you'll noticed they've all been patched. So why don't Bioware make a patch? Once again I link back to EA here.

Valve and Blizzard are both incredibly independent developers. While Valve still relies on other companies for its physical distribution (on consoles at least, unsure about PC?), the roaring success of Steam has made it a powerful giant in its own right. Blizzard, similarly, self-publishes everything. They don't even publish their games through partner-company Activision. It's all done in house.

Bioware, conversely, are not so independent. They have neither their own digital distribution platform nor their own publishing firm. Why don't they release it as a patch? My guess is they can't, either due to contract, monetary reasons or performance issues.

But I can't really say, you'd probably have to ask the CEO of Bioware and - sadly - I'm not him.

Dragon Age:Origins is on Steam is it not? And Steam provides devs with the ability to release patches as they wish.

 

[Sevre]

I'm going to bed, we'll continue tomorrow.

 

[scotth266]

Reviews aren't nearly as thorough as you think, many reviewers get two days to a week or so with a game. People expect to be playing for over 200 hours here, I think they'll accumulate a fair amount of junk in that time which y'know a storage chest would be handy for.

Really? Most reviewers are given ADVANCE COPIES, so that they can review the full games before release.

All of the reviewers have AT LEAST played through the main plotline: I think that would be more than enough to figure out whether the inventory system is flawed. When you combine that with the fact that they've probably played quite a few sidequests as well... Nobody noticed such a game-breaking flaw? Rrrrrright.

It's not that it's a conspiracy, it's just that we've seen EA do this kind of thing before, I'm just saying I think it was EA's idea to release day one DLC rather than Bioware, because let's think here, if you were a game developer, the last thing you want to be doing on release day is releasing DLC or patches.

Bioware has, once again, GIVEN REASONS for why they're doing this. If you don't want to listen to them, fine.

 

[Bretty]

I like this lol...

Buy the Delux and get tons of stuff or dont and pay 7 for extra?

OH SHIT $7 for something that is off plot and story!!!! OH NOES!!!! Like the 70 hours of gameplay wasnt enough!!!! They want to charge us for more???

Seriously, if this is an issue you need to get a better job. People should be happy they released the Warden Keep to those that bought basic DA:0. Shit, people who play Empire Total War started getting upset that they couldnt get the special pre order bonus. So what happened? After enough bitching they got a DLC all $2.50 worth.

If you want it, buy it. If not then dont cry because you arent getting something for free.

I for one think they should take down the DLC and not let any of you spoilt children have it. Then I guess there will be a thread titled something like "BIOWARE MAKES US BUY SPECIAL EDITIONS FOR CONTENT!!!!".

^ Equally as retarded.

 

[Amnestic]

Dragon Age:Origins is on Steam is it not? And Steam provides devs with the ability to release patches as they wish.

There's a huge difference between owning a digital distribution platform and using it to get your game out. They're just trading EA for Valve.

And even if Steam does provide them with the ability to release patches - where does the money come from to pay the developers who spent months of their life writing code for that piece of DLC?

 

[CD-R]

For everyone who keeps saying the day 1 DLC is a ripoff. If they wanted to rip us off they would have put, limited installs, DRM, Securom, or online activation in the game, which they didn't. This is basically a way for the developers to get some of the money back that they'd normally lose either due to piracy, used game sales, or rentals. Would you rather they put the drm crap back in or lobby the government to pass some stupid law making game rentals illegal like they are in Japan (so I've heard anyway)?

I'd rather it be "hey you bought our game thanks, heres some free dlc." Rather than hey you bought are game, you'll probably pirate it so heres some securom.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

This game is too awesome for me to care about the naysayers... Isn't that right precious? yessss...

 

[CD-R]

Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

Probably because it costs time, money and manpower to develop these things. Just a thought. Also, feel free to go poke at WoW's patchnotes once in a while and you'll see that they're more than happy to 'give out' content.

WoW is an MMO that you need to pay a monthly subscription for to keep playing. I wouldn't exactly call those updates free.

 

[Amnestic]

Though people don't like giving away free things these days.

Probably because it costs time, money and manpower to develop these things. Just a thought. Also, feel free to go poke at WoW's patchnotes once in a while and you'll see that they're more than happy to 'give out' content.

WoW is an MMO that you need to pay a monthly subscription for to keep playing. I wouldn't exactly call those updates free.

Only a small portion goes towards the updates - bear in mind you're also paying for access to the servers, server maintenance, customer support and things like that.

Yeah, the monthly fee is going (in part) towards the patches I'll concede, but it's not as if you're paying for the patch content directly in the same manner of DLC.

I don't actually know how the WoW subscription fees get taken apart and what they go to exactly but I would love to find out. I know for a fact that the WoW forums are a service that you don't pay for, and rather are a free service provided by Blizzard (assuming you have an active account) and that your fee doesn't go to maintaining them, or so I was told by one of their Blues.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

OH GOD I WENT A WHOLE DAY WITHOUT PLAYING I'M IN WITHDRAW- oh are you guys still whining about that DLC? hahaha...

Shale is the most awesome thing since HK-47 by the way.

 

[Altorin]

As long as it's not on the disc, or at least not in a workable way, and we're not just "unlocking" it with money, I'm fine with DLC whenever the devs want to do it. Once games "go gold" they basically can't be changed, but I don't want Bioware to stop working just because they can't physically change the games that ship.

That being said, if something's on the disc and we just have to pay extra to unlock it, fuck that in the neck.

I'm looking at you Capcom.