Dragon Age Designer Says DLC Not Meant to Rip Off Players

Sevre

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Apr 6, 2009
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Amnestic said:
Sevre90210 said:
Dragon Age:Origins is on Steam is it not? And Steam provides devs with the ability to release patches as they wish.
There's a huge difference between owning a digital distribution platform and using it to get your game out. They're just trading EA for Valve.

And even if Steam does provide them with the ability to release patches - where does the money come from to pay the developers who spent months of their life writing code for that piece of DLC?
Are you even listening to me? I'm not saying they shouldn't release DLC, they could easily release patches through the various distribution methods for each system and they could give us some worthwhile DLC too. Seriously, it is completely unnecessary to make people pay for a storage chest although if say this was adding 30+ hours to the game like other DLCs then it would be worth the money.
 

Sevre

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scotth266 said:
Sevre90210 said:
Reviews aren't nearly as thorough as you think, many reviewers get two days to a week or so with a game. People expect to be playing for over 200 hours here, I think they'll accumulate a fair amount of junk in that time which y'know a storage chest would be handy for.
Really? Most reviewers are given ADVANCE COPIES, so that they can review the full games before release.

All of the reviewers have AT LEAST played through the main plotline: I think that would be more than enough to figure out whether the inventory system is flawed. When you combine that with the fact that they've probably played quite a few sidequests as well... Nobody noticed such a game-breaking flaw? Rrrrrright.

It's not that it's a conspiracy, it's just that we've seen EA do this kind of thing before, I'm just saying I think it was EA's idea to release day one DLC rather than Bioware, because let's think here, if you were a game developer, the last thing you want to be doing on release day is releasing DLC or patches.
Bioware has, once again, GIVEN REASONS for why they're doing this. If you don't want to listen to them, fine.
I see, please point out the reason in the following paragraph:

Said Zeoller, "I categorically reject that any features or game systems in this game were designed or removed to 'bilk users for more money.'" According to Zeoller, the player's inventory limit was never questioned during any phase of the game's development, and was added by the DLC team as a "cool feature for your own keep"; EA had nothing to do with the contents of the Warden's Keep DLC. A storage chest was implemented at one point, but players were losing their items due to the camp area constantly changing, admits Zoeller, and there wasn't enough time to fix this problem. Warden's Keep provided a permanent and central location for a storage chest to reside.
As written, EA had nothing to do with the contents of the DLC. Please note that content has nothing to do with release dates. You really should read before you resort to ALL CAPS.

As for the other point, it's not game breaking to have a storage chest is it? In fact it's just standard to have a storage chest in a RPG. Hell I can't think of a RPG without one.
 

Camarilla

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Sevre90210 said:
As written, EA had nothing to do with the contents of the DLC. Please note that content has nothing to do with release dates. You really should read before you resort to ALL CAPS.

As for the other point, it's not game breaking to have a storage chest is it? In fact it's just standard to have a storage chest in a RPG. Hell I can't think of a RPG without one.
Seeing as you apparently haven't read my previous post, I will again quote Fernando Melo, a Bioware employee, as posted on the official DA:O boards:

It has certainly been interesting to hear all the feedback on this. I mean that in the best of ways to be clear - it is good for us to hear your thoughts as always, and why we frequent these boards.

I'll try to recap the couple of points that keep coming up on this, and try to re-iterate some of what we've been saying...

Why is day 1 DLC not on the disc:
- Think of it this way... forget it was DLC we were making, and pretend it was a web page.

We could continue to work on that right up to game launch day and still have it ready for "day 1". But there would never ever have been a way to get that web page done back in time to make it for the dates for disc, or even the digital versions of the game, which needed to be locked many weeks (or months in some cases) in advance of game launch.

- DLC works on a relatively shorter dev cycle (months, instead of years), and the nature of it being downloadable means there are not the same lengthy lead times to get discs made and out to warehouses for retail shelves. Also, given most DLC is measured in single digit hours it is much quicker to test, the number of issues you find are lower volume which also makes for quicker turnaround of fixes, and even getting through console certification is quicker.

- That combined with the game delay from March to Nov meant we effectively caught up to the launch date. But there would still have been no way to ever get that DLC on to the discs or digi versions - it just was not ready in that kind of timeframe.

- On a similar vein, this is also the same reason why the content was not 'ripped out' at the last minute to make a quick buck. The game content was locked for the disc/digital versions, and taking something out can introduce just as many issues.

Perhaps the more relevant question is - why still choose to launch it day 1 then?

There are a lot of good reasons for this, otherwise we wouldn't have done it. Suffice it to say that it was not a decision made lightly, but I still believe it is the right one for DA even if it means taking a few lumps in the meantime for it.

For the sake of brevity, let me reverse the question. Why delay it?

Sure, the easy thing would have been to artificially just sit on the release of these for a few weeks. But then, what would be the right time? 1 week? 2, 4, 6? More importantly, and honestly now - what would have been the benefit for fans that might want DLC in doing this?


Lastly, and this is my own personal view. The day after the game launches a lot of this will largely go away as the concept of 'it came out day 1 or not' becomes less of a stigma.

The only thing that will matter is whether it was good DLC, or bad DLC.

As always if you have doubts, wait it out - you have a massive game ahead of you before you should ever feel like you "need" to dive into DLC, regardless of how compulsive you may think you are.

Listen to other forum posters' reviews. Listen to public reviews elsewhere on the net. Review the content descriptions, screenshots, and videos we'll continue to post on our sites.

That is already a lot more information than you typically will see with most DLC. And in the end, if you still do not feel it is right for you - tell us why, I'd appreciate that just as much as your feedback if you played it.

But know that you will not be missing any part of the DA:O story because of this. The game will not be less playable, or less fun, or less of an epic RPG because of this.

If you play FPS games but don't like MP, are you really going to feel like you 'missed out' or got an incomplete experience because a MP map pack DLC came out?? Really?
Bioware have also said that they tried putting a storage chest into the game, but were unable to implement it properly before the content lockdown, so it was cut from the game. The DLC team, however, were free to continue working on the storage chest, at which point they put it into Warden's Keep DLC as one of the final rewards (I've been trying to locate the quote for this, but I can't remember which dev said it, so it's tough filtering through all the dev posts on the matter)
 

Sevre

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Camarilla said:
Sevre90210 said:
As written, EA had nothing to do with the contents of the DLC. Please note that content has nothing to do with release dates. You really should read before you resort to ALL CAPS.

As for the other point, it's not game breaking to have a storage chest is it? In fact it's just standard to have a storage chest in a RPG. Hell I can't think of a RPG without one.
Seeing as you apparently haven't read my previous post, I will again quote Fernando Melo, a Bioware employee, as posted on the official DA:O boards:

It has certainly been interesting to hear all the feedback on this. I mean that in the best of ways to be clear - it is good for us to hear your thoughts as always, and why we frequent these boards.

I'll try to recap the couple of points that keep coming up on this, and try to re-iterate some of what we've been saying...

Why is day 1 DLC not on the disc:
- Think of it this way... forget it was DLC we were making, and pretend it was a web page.

We could continue to work on that right up to game launch day and still have it ready for "day 1". But there would never ever have been a way to get that web page done back in time to make it for the dates for disc, or even the digital versions of the game, which needed to be locked many weeks (or months in some cases) in advance of game launch.

- DLC works on a relatively shorter dev cycle (months, instead of years), and the nature of it being downloadable means there are not the same lengthy lead times to get discs made and out to warehouses for retail shelves. Also, given most DLC is measured in single digit hours it is much quicker to test, the number of issues you find are lower volume which also makes for quicker turnaround of fixes, and even getting through console certification is quicker.

- That combined with the game delay from March to Nov meant we effectively caught up to the launch date. But there would still have been no way to ever get that DLC on to the discs or digi versions - it just was not ready in that kind of timeframe.

- On a similar vein, this is also the same reason why the content was not 'ripped out' at the last minute to make a quick buck. The game content was locked for the disc/digital versions, and taking something out can introduce just as many issues.

Perhaps the more relevant question is - why still choose to launch it day 1 then?

There are a lot of good reasons for this, otherwise we wouldn't have done it. Suffice it to say that it was not a decision made lightly, but I still believe it is the right one for DA even if it means taking a few lumps in the meantime for it.

For the sake of brevity, let me reverse the question. Why delay it?

Sure, the easy thing would have been to artificially just sit on the release of these for a few weeks. But then, what would be the right time? 1 week? 2, 4, 6? More importantly, and honestly now - what would have been the benefit for fans that might want DLC in doing this?


Lastly, and this is my own personal view. The day after the game launches a lot of this will largely go away as the concept of 'it came out day 1 or not' becomes less of a stigma.

The only thing that will matter is whether it was good DLC, or bad DLC.

As always if you have doubts, wait it out - you have a massive game ahead of you before you should ever feel like you "need" to dive into DLC, regardless of how compulsive you may think you are.

Listen to other forum posters' reviews. Listen to public reviews elsewhere on the net. Review the content descriptions, screenshots, and videos we'll continue to post on our sites.

That is already a lot more information than you typically will see with most DLC. And in the end, if you still do not feel it is right for you - tell us why, I'd appreciate that just as much as your feedback if you played it.

But know that you will not be missing any part of the DA:O story because of this. The game will not be less playable, or less fun, or less of an epic RPG because of this.

If you play FPS games but don't like MP, are you really going to feel like you 'missed out' or got an incomplete experience because a MP map pack DLC came out?? Really?
Bioware have also said that they tried putting a storage chest into the game, but were unable to implement it properly before the content lockdown, so it was cut from the game. The DLC team, however, were free to continue working on the storage chest, at which point they put it into Warden's Keep DLC as one of the final rewards (I've been trying to locate the quote for this, but I can't remember which dev said it, so it's tough filtering through all the dev posts on the matter)
Well first of all I didn't read your previous post because it is irrelevant to this argument and secondly your post is still irrelevant to this argument. The argument is why should we have to pay for a storage chest? All we need is a patch, which Bioware are fully capable of supplying. Don't believe me?

http://gamerblips.dailyradar.com/story/dragon-age-patch-fixes-minor-bugs-alters-difficulty/

Anyway we seem to have closed this argument, I'm sure it's a fine piece of DLC, I still don't see the point of it though, it'll always appear to be a money-grabbing opportunity to charge someone for something like a storage chest.
 

Camarilla

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How is pointing out that EA had nothing to do with the release date irrelevant when you constantly state that you think they did?
 

Worgen

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Amnestic said:
Sevre90210 said:
It's not meant to rip them off, it just does.
Yeah, $7 is really breaking the bank.

What's that, like...3 cups of coffee?

Ouch. How will you manage?
its not just 7 bucks, its 57 bucks or 67 bucks, or 77 bucks, if you live in a place with sales tax its more then that, its kinda like throwing on an extra 10 to game price. It makes me worry about mass effect 2 and what might be excluded for the intention of leaving for dlc
 

Sevre

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Camarilla said:
How is pointing out that EA had nothing to do with the release date irrelevant when you constantly state that you think they did?
Once again, you should really read the full argument, I've made my case about EA's involvement, it is really EA who pull the strings when it comes to selling the game. Developers just make the games, they don't sell them.
 

Dadutchman

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So instead of enjoying the 80+ hours a great game ON DISC, and just opting to not buy the DLC, your stubborn enough to flip Bioware the finger and not play at all? All this because they had the gumption to even think of giving players more content! THOSE BASTARDS! .. really?
 

Amnestic

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Aug 22, 2008
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Worgen said:
Amnestic said:
Sevre90210 said:
It's not meant to rip them off, it just does.
Yeah, $7 is really breaking the bank.

What's that, like...3 cups of coffee?

Ouch. How will you manage?
its not just 7 bucks, its 57 bucks or 67 bucks, or 77 bucks, if you live in a place with sales tax its more then that, its kinda like throwing on an extra 10 to game price. It makes me worry about mass effect 2 and what might be excluded for the intention of leaving for dlc
No, the DLC really is $7.

It's not $57, that's the game and the DLC.

Which is optional. And not required.
 

Sevre

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Dadutchman said:
So instead of enjoying the 80+ hours a great game ON DISC, and just opting to not buy the DLC, your stubborn enough to flip Bioware the finger and not play at all? All this because they had the gumption to even think of giving players more content! THOSE BASTARDS! .. really?
Are you talking to me? Because I'm buying the game anyway, you should really learn to read things before you post, otherwise you'll get eaten alive.
 

Sevre

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Amnestic said:
Worgen said:
Amnestic said:
Sevre90210 said:
It's not meant to rip them off, it just does.
Yeah, $7 is really breaking the bank.

What's that, like...3 cups of coffee?

Ouch. How will you manage?
its not just 7 bucks, its 57 bucks or 67 bucks, or 77 bucks, if you live in a place with sales tax its more then that, its kinda like throwing on an extra 10 to game price. It makes me worry about mass effect 2 and what might be excluded for the intention of leaving for dlc
No, the DLC really is $7.

It's not $57, that's the game and the DLC.

Which is optional. And not required.
Did I ever tell you that I missed you. How could you leave me here to debate with myself?

/cries.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Amnestic said:
Worgen said:
Amnestic said:
Sevre90210 said:
It's not meant to rip them off, it just does.
Yeah, $7 is really breaking the bank.

What's that, like...3 cups of coffee?

Ouch. How will you manage?
its not just 7 bucks, its 57 bucks or 67 bucks, or 77 bucks, if you live in a place with sales tax its more then that, its kinda like throwing on an extra 10 to game price. It makes me worry about mass effect 2 and what might be excluded for the intention of leaving for dlc
No, the DLC really is $7.

It's not $57, that's the game and the DLC.

Which is optional. And not required.
what? you can get the dlc without the game? thats news to me but why would you do that?
 

geldonyetich

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There's a storage chest there? Shoot, up until now I've just been selling everything. I should probably pay it a visit - for the most part the sell everything approach works, but when it comes to the gifts those do tend to accumulate in the inventory.
 

Amnestic

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blue_guy said:
It's just a friggin' inventory system, it's not like they are trying to simulate realistic water physics or create perfect path finding for the AI. They could have just copy+pasted most of the code for the player inventory, so this sounds more like they just forgot to do it.
Oh yes, this world renowned, 14 years old RPG development studio just 'forgot' to 'copy+paste' some code. Forgive me if I don't take your post seriously, I'm having trouble because it reeks of silly.

Worgen said:
what? you can get the dlc without the game? thats news to me but why would you do that?
Because you don't want to pay an extra $7?

Zeeky_Santos said:
lets face it, a DLC package is pretty much a Patch, 7$ may not be a lot of money, but when it should be free, its a matter of principalities, not material goods.
Ah, but you're debating from the point that it should be free. I disagree. They put time, manpower and resources into this and - just like Pinnacle Station, Broken Steel or a CoD Map Pack, they need to somehow pay for that time spent.
 

antipunt

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I'll admit, if the game wasn't so damned good, I'd probably be a little pissed.
 

sanzo

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antipunt said:
I'll admit, if the game wasn't so damned good, I'd probably be a little pissed.
I'm with him on this. I'm already 15 hours into the game and I haven't even touched Stone Prisoner yet

Although all the talk I hear from other people about how awesome Shale is, I guess I should
 

MDSnowman

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The only thing that bothers me is that in my experience EA games idea of DLC usually falls within these lines. Make players pay for something that should have been in the game to start with or something that gives them such a big advantage that they're playing the game gimped without it. It's not a DLC problem, it's an EA problem.
 

scotth266

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Sevre90210 said:
I see, please point out the reason [for the day one launch dates] in the following paragraph:

snip

As written, EA had nothing to do with the contents of the DLC. Please note that content has nothing to do with release dates. You really should read before you resort to ALL CAPS.

As for the other point, it's not game breaking to have a storage chest is it? In fact it's just standard to have a storage chest in a RPG. Hell I can't think of a RPG without one.
It wasn't in that paragraph. It was the bolded section posted by a previous user:

Perhaps the more relevant question is - why still choose to launch it day 1 then?

There are a lot of good reasons for this, otherwise we wouldn't have done it. Suffice it to say that it was not a decision made lightly, but I still believe it is the right one for DA even if it means taking a few lumps in the meantime for it.

For the sake of brevity, let me reverse the question. Why delay it?

Sure, the easy thing would have been to artificially just sit on the release of these for a few weeks. But then, what would be the right time? 1 week? 2, 4, 6? More importantly, and honestly now - what would have been the benefit for fans that might want DLC in doing this?
Those are the reasons Bioware gave for releasing the DLC on day one. You can either accept them, or go with your conspiracy theories.

I have asked several people with the game about the inventory system: not one of them has yet complained about a lack of space.

Mass Effect, Bioware's last RPG, didn't have storage chests, and ME had a limit to it's inventory space as well.