Dragonage The Veilguard - Tween RPG

[Casual Shinji]

The Bioware 'cool factor' has been bringing down their games with the start of Mass Effect 2. Everybody's favourite, but you look at Jack, Miranda, Thane, and Samara, and yeah... they really thought they were slick and awesome with those characters. Not to mention the stupid Reaper-Terminator. And from the looks of it Veilguard is the 'week-old milk left in the sun' version of this Bioware cool factor.

 

[BrawlMan]

Other than story and characters, Dragon Age never had a true gameplay identity. The game play in pretty much all these games weren't that good. It sucks what happened with the latest entry, but people are lamenting the loss like they lost a family member or something. As people said at this point: there's plenty of other games now that do it better than the franchise ever could. BG3 Is a thing now and still gets updates.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Also, Veilguard seems to be doing pretty good. At release it was heading the Concord/GTA Trilogy direction in terms of online ridicule, but overall it apears to have been received positive.

 

[BrawlMan]

Also, Veilguard seems to be doing pretty good. At release it was heading the Concord/GTA Trilogy direction in terms of online ridicule, but overall it apears to have been received positive.

Dragon Age: The Veilguard sales numbers news – How many people are playing and paying?

How many are playing?

www.radiotimes.com

All true, but there's still no official sales numbers yet.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Also, Veilguard seems to be doing pretty good. At release it was heading the Concord/GTA Trilogy direction in terms of online ridicule, but overall it apears to have been received positive.

I have also been hearing more positive takes on it recently, even if it still doesn't sound like a game I would enjoy.

I've also heard a wider mix of views from trans/non binary people about the quality of representation. So while I find the examples I have seen unnatural in a way that registers as fetishistic, it's important to remember that we're not a hive mind and we have different opinions about what good representation looks like.

Personally, I play roleplaying games to roleplay, I've never felt any particular need to identify myself with a character I play in an RPG because I see them as a fictional character and not an avatar. As weird as it is to me, I do accept that others might feel differently.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I have also been hearing more positive takes on it recently, even if it still doesn't sound like a game I would enjoy.

I've seen the visuals and heard some of the dialoge... This doesn't look like my cup of tea neither. And Baldur's Gate 3 is still ever magnificent.

Personally, I play roleplaying games to roleplay, I've never felt any particular need to identify myself with a character I play in an RPG because I see them as a fictional character and not an avatar. As weird as it is to me, I do accept that others might feel differently.

Honestly, BG3 was the first role-playing game I've played that felt like an actual role-playing game. Whether it was Mass Effect or Dragon Age, it always felt like I had to adhere to a role. One that could be borish or charming, but a role the game wanted your character to take. Though I do think early Mass Effect handles this well enough. Fallout 4 presents itself much more as a role-playing game, but you're pretty much forced to play the concerned parent. I tried to do a playthrough as a drug addicted cannibal once, but everytime I went into dialoge it was 'Oh my poor son, I must find him'.

 

[CriticalGaming]

 

[Dreiko]

Yeah, I think that kind of nails what was interesting about it. It had a kind of emergent gameplay that most RPGs at the time didn't really manage, so it was fun to find all the weird broken combos the developers probably didn't intend. Another obvious one was that you were supposed to get penalties for using a lot of buffs, but some people found out those penalties didn't apply to blood magic. Then there were the funny traps which noone ever used but it still just felt nice that they were there.

It feels kind of weird to be excited about that now that we stuff like BG3 which is basically a full on isometric immersive sim, but at the time it was pretty cool.

When I played the original Baldurs Gate as a kid, there's a scene where Drizzt shows up for a cameo. But he has really, really good weapons so I remember coming up with all these weird strategies to kill him and take his stuff. You clearly weren't "supposed" to do that, but I always appreciate when a game gives you opportunities to try and outsmart the developers.

I never played BG as a kid, but I did dabble a bit in the more recent remaster they put out. And yeah I can see how ahead of its time it was. If I had to pick a title for my half-orc it'd have to be the sword breaker, and not in reference to others' swords, cause with every crit he'd break his greatsword in the early game. Thankfully I found this other orc who had some sort of evil blade which wasn't made by the gimped steel so I just kinda took it from him after he joined us and parked him at the inn so I could continue without having to keep buying a sword.

I'm doing an Azata run at the moment (halfling fighter/duelist, which is honestly kind of hilarious - almost everything needs a natural 20 to hit). I love that dragon. Also, the path itself is a really good example. You've got this harsh world where horrible things keep happening and suddenly all this whimsical stuff starts showing up like it's suddenly a pixar movie about the power of friendship. It really gives the feeling that Elysium is leaking into the material world and changing the rules.

The most "holy shit" one I've encountered so far though is Aeon. There's a bunch of moments where you walk into situations and go "actually, that never happened." It's definitely the most high concept.

Yeah Aivu is such a joy and her quips are hilarious. She's kinda like an anime mascot in a grim hellish world. I was a bloodrager (feels like playing a tanky barbarian with some basic magic stuff for variety) which made it all the more funny too. We either can dance under this rainbow or I will break off a piece and stab you with it was basically my character.

Basically, yeah.

Honestly, focusing on Rogue Traders is one of the best choices I can think of for a 40k RPG (the other one being the Inquisition). Both are groups which have basically no oversight. The whole point of rogue traders is that they can basically go wherever and do whatever they want. They supply things that noone in the Imperium is supposed to want, so everyone just looks the other way.

The Inquisition is kind of genius though. Whenever they show up in media that's not about them they're always presented as the super serious fun police who blow up planets for wrongthink, but as soon as they are the focus you realize they're a bunch of mad people exceptional individuals who are given limitless power and told to go off and come up with "good ideas" (tm) to fix the fucked up situation humanity is in. It's a very British approach, which is appropriate because Inquisitors spend a lot of time stabbing each other to death over minor disagreements.

See, I keep trying to convince myself that I don't like 40k, but to be honest I just hate the "for the emprah", "spess mehrines" stuff that everyone makes memes about. All the weird behind the scenes stuff is way more fun.

So I'm like 20ish hours into the rogue trader and damn, this is a really really dense game text-wise. Super long dialogues and reading segments. Love it though cause all the lore it shoves in your face is new stuff and I'm like a puppy with a new toy every 5 minutes.

You will be glad to hear that the game itself doesn't take the emperor worship too seriously. The matriarch rogue trader even chastises you if you are too proper with her, and the game has 3 alignments you can RP from, and it tells you which thing belongs to which alignment so you can make informed decisions. Heretic is like some pagan cultist who worships the eldritch gods...and also kinda metal and cool, dogmatic is the emperor worship side where you act like an aristocrat who gets to do whatever he wants cause it's for the greater good, and iconoclast which I didn't expect to be an option is just...I dunno...the secular humanist common sense alignment...that also seems to be somewhat tied to some evil god for some reason, but less metal than the heretical one.

But yeah like for example there's this death cult in my city-ship (it is gigantic, it houses like tens of thousands of people who lived there for generations, nuts) who think the emperor is death, like that they're one and the same, and they're like some badass assassin ninja with a blood fetish and hot topic fashion. And they ritualistically sacrifice people for you to honor the emperor, but if you cheer them on that's actually a heretical act despite it all being done in the name of the emperor.


At the end of the day, it feels like all 3 alignments are something you exploit to get into a better bargaining position. You do eventually get locked into one as your "main" one if you get to tier 3/5 but you can still raise the others to tier 2, so you can just do what you feel like most of the time.




Oh and I found some princess navigator who is like from a storybook. Totally sheltered and lived in books her entire life. If you flirt with her she gives you a reading assignment on how to properly court a lady. She feels kinda like the half elf with the burn injuries in pathfinder 2, not insane but kinda living in her own little world, which is fun to visit once in a while to change the tone. She uses painting to travel the hell dimension so a lot of her metaphors involve color.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Heretic is like some pagan cultist who worships the eldritch gods...and also kinda metal and cool, dogmatic is the emperor worship side where you act like an aristocrat who gets to do whatever he wants cause it's for the greater good, and iconoclast which I didn't expect to be an option is just...I dunno...the secular humanist common sense alignment...that also seems to be somewhat tied to some evil god for some reason, but less metal than the heretical one.

Yeah, having an iconoclast option to me is a sign that they kind of get it, because while 40k the game tends to exclusively focus on hyper-indoctrinated mega-heroes who praise the Emperor every 5 seconds, whenever you move away from that there's always a sense that most people in the Imperium don't really care. In Necromunda, for example, the only religious people are a bunch of pyromaniac cargo cultists who don't even know what they're worshipping. Even the nobility are a bunch of hedonists who are just there to hunt poor people for sport. It's still grimdark but it's a lot more diverse and fun.

But yeah like for example there's this death cult in my city-ship (it is gigantic, it houses like tens of thousands of people who lived there for generations, nuts) who think the emperor is death, like that they're one and the same, and they're like some badass assassin ninja with a blood fetish and hot topic fashion.

Yeah, I think the lore for death cult assassins was originally written for Inquisitor. Again, there's this idea that most people have never actually met a member of the ecclesiarchy so they don't really know anything about the Imperial cult and just form their own weird cargo cult religions instead.

Oh and I found some princess navigator who is like from a storybook. Totally sheltered and lived in books her entire life. If you flirt with her she gives you a reading assignment on how to properly court a lady. She feels kinda like the half elf with the burn injuries in pathfinder 2, not insane but kinda living in her own little world, which is fun to visit once in a while to change the tone. She uses painting to travel the hell dimension so a lot of her metaphors involve color.

Again, it just feels like people who actually understand the setting (and also probably played Inquisitor, because they're touching a lot of stuff that was published for it).

Navigators are basically the 40k take on the spacing guild from dune. And yeah, they are basically the interplanetary aristocracy who live very sheltered and luxurious lives, but also just have a strange view of reality because of how they see the world. Also, looking at their third eye can cause insanity or death, which means they don't interact with humans much (and in space they prevent the ship from going full Event Horizon, so they need to be kept alive at all costs).

My favourite piece of lore about them though is that the "leader" of the Navigator Houses is called the Paternova and is a giant mutated monster. The navigators rely on the Paternova to navigate, so when one dies (every few hundred years) noone can travel FTL for a time. At that point all the most powerful navigators on earth start to mutate and become feral, and they kill each other until there's only one left. The survivor becomes the new Paternova. It's a nice little illustration that navigators aren't actually human.

 

[FakeSympathy]

https://gamerant.com/dragon-age-origins-player-count-november-2024/

Well, if there are any solaces to this debacle, it's that at least people seem to take interest in the better game, albeit with some outdated designs

 

[CriticalGaming]

I've now gotten far enough to get all the companions in the game, which took me about 16 hours. I would have talked about this sooner but I had a business trip which took away a week of my time with the game. There are a few things that really stand out to me about the characters and the writing that really make me wonder if there was anyone doing any editing or review of the content being made for the game.

Firstly all your companions join you without fail or question. Even the final two in which they seem to have their own lives and goals but just instantly drop everything without question to join you even without explanation. Additionally characters will talk to each other with questions like they've know each other for a while even with companions you've literally just met. And there is not a single companion that butts heads with any other one. They all get along, they are all very passive and nonthreatening (include the necromancer and the guy who has a demon inside him), everyone is very respectful and casual with each other immediately.

And the problem with it is like....people don't talk to each other like that. These feel like robots, not characters, and none of the dialog does anything to question or undermine any character's personality or interests. It's honestly kind of toxic positivity that we heard about from within the studio at Concord.

To talk about the LBGT characters a little, more specifically Taash. Taash is non-binary, but the game doesn't keep this consistent. Taash is introduced as a she to the player, and several characters refer to Taash as she/her, despite the they/them pronouns of the non-binary. And it's very confusing because it is like the writers can't even keep their own rules and their own characters straight (no pun intended).

That isn't even to mention that Taash's whole character arch seems to be based on not wanting her tribe or parental expectations to dictate their life. Taash gets very angry when someone tells them who to be, how to be, etc. Which makes the character's non-binary-ness feel a lot more like a "fuck you mom and dad" teenage tantrum than an actual thing. Combine that with the inconsistancy in the writing of regularly using she/her pronouns for the character and it's like nobody bothered to do any editing or keeping of consistancy in the writing, they just let whatever slide without even checking to make sure they were sending mixed messages.

Fuck this game sucks.

 

[Terminal Blue]

To talk about the LBGT characters a little, more specifically Taash. Taash is non-binary, but the game doesn't keep this consistent. Taash is introduced as a she to the player, and several characters refer to Taash as she/her, despite the they/them pronouns of the non-binary. And it's very confusing because it is like the writers can't even keep their own rules and their own characters straight (no pun intended).

To be fair, this is not particularly unusual in real life. Many non-binary people (including me) don't really have a problem with gendered pronouns. At this point I actually go back and forth when describing myself. But I would say that if you're going to do it in a piece of media, you do need to explain what it means. Because people who aren't non-binary or who are but have stronger preferences about this sort of thing probably aren't going to get it.

Like, if it was an indicator of how well someone knew Taash, that would be fine. In fact, it would actually be a pretty clever way of giving the player that information while also illustrating closeting. But you would need to give some indication of what was going on. Like, maybe have a character switch from one to the other to show their growing relationship.

Similarly, if there was no reason and they just don't consider pronouns important, that's also fine but you'd need to have that stated openly at some point.

Taash gets very angry when someone tells them who to be, how to be, etc. Which makes the character's non-binary-ness feel a lot more like a "fuck you mom and dad" teenage tantrum than an actual thing.

Again, I don't think this is necessarily the worst thing in the world. For a lot of non-binary people, being non-binary is less a positive identity and more a rejection of a gendered identity that they view as having been forced on them. There is a very real contrary streak to the way a lot of non-binary people express themselves. There is an obvious question of whether it's a good idea to represent non-binary people in that way, but personally I don't mind as long as it feels authentic.

Obviously, I can't judge whether it's done well here because I only have a few examples and they all seem pretty cringe. Just throwing in some thoughts on this.

That said, I do have to give it to them.. having a non-binary character be Qunari is actually a pretty neat idea because Qunari have that really rigid gendered division of labor. It means being non-binary isn't just a gender thing but a kind of complete rejection of your place in society. I like that, it grounds the concept in this fantasy world a bit better.

 

[CriticalGaming]

There is an obvious question of whether it's a good idea to represent non-binary people in that way, but personally I don't mind as long as it feels authentic.

Well that's the thing here, it doesn't feel authentic. Also Taash is kind of a piece of shit because you have a Necromancer on your team who Tassh refuses to address by name, and instead gives him "insulting" nicknames like bone wizard and whatnot. Which it just so happens the necromancer in question is a white male, and as a result it feels like a genuine snide by the writing team in that you have to respect the non-binary, but fuck the white dude he's a piece of shit.

A lot of the scenes that address any character's LBGT-ness feels more like being lectured by a teacher in a classroom rather than any meaningful part of the story. It adds nothing to the character development and it makes it stand further out of place in the world of fantasy being presented when there were far better ways of incorporating these ideas into the norm for the fictional world as an example of "see? we can all just respect each other and it's fine." but they fail to do so.

Like, if it was an indicator of how well someone knew Taash, that would be fine. In fact, it would actually be a pretty clever way of giving the player that information while also illustrating closeting. But you would need to give some indication of what was going on. Like, maybe have a character switch from one to the other to show their growing relationship.

I suppose it is possible that this was their intended message to convey as such. But they fail making it clear to the player in that regard and fail to make it a part of the character's arch entirely. I think this is a perfect showcase of the existence of pronouns, LBGT themes, etc, are not really issues with people, actually I think BG3 proves that, but you have to make it well written and integrated in the story and ideally also make it optional.

I've said before that i don''t think identity politics or sexual has any place in a game in which there are no romantic relationships, beyond small side things maybe (helpping the gay kids in Spider-man 2 is a good example). However in games with relationships like Dragonage or BG3 you should make all relationship sexualities optional. Allow every character to be gay if the player so chooses, or allow none of them to be gay (or trans or anywhatever) if the player so choses. That seems like an easy win-win for all potential players and also avoids backlash.

Part of the DA's problem is that it doesn't allow any such freedom. The player can be trans but can't be a big tittied sexy lady. The player also can't be a dickhead, can't chose to piss of any companions like in previous Bioware games. You are forced to be an all accepting perfect person and it's fucking stupid for a game like this. But I also believe it's done intentionally because giving the player options to be a dickhead potentially means the player can be a dickhead to the companions with alternative pronouns which they obviously cannot allow. So you are forced to accept it, or otherwise not play the game.

Which from what I've heard there have been a lot of refunds requested for this game. Though that's not entirely the fault of the identity politics in the game and problem much more the fault of the game being rather shiiiiiit as a whole.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I beat a few of the optional dragon bosses in the game including the final super boss one while 14 levels underleveled. Turns out they all fight exactly the same which different colors to their magics, so once you master one dragon you basically beat them all.

 

[Dreiko]

To be fair, this is not particularly unusual in real life. Many non-binary people (including me) don't really have a problem with gendered pronouns. At this point I actually go back and forth when describing myself. But I would say that if you're going to do it in a piece of media, you do need to explain what it means. Because people who aren't non-binary or who are but have stronger preferences about this sort of thing probably aren't going to get it.

Like, if it was an indicator of how well someone knew Taash, that would be fine. In fact, it would actually be a pretty clever way of giving the player that information while also illustrating closeting. But you would need to give some indication of what was going on. Like, maybe have a character switch from one to the other to show their growing relationship.

Similarly, if there was no reason and they just don't consider pronouns important, that's also fine but you'd need to have that stated openly at some point.



Again, I don't think this is necessarily the worst thing in the world. For a lot of non-binary people, being non-binary is less a positive identity and more a rejection of a gendered identity that they view as having been forced on them. There is a very real contrary streak to the way a lot of non-binary people express themselves. There is an obvious question of whether it's a good idea to represent non-binary people in that way, but personally I don't mind as long as it feels authentic.

Obviously, I can't judge whether it's done well here because I only have a few examples and they all seem pretty cringe. Just throwing in some thoughts on this.

That said, I do have to give it to them.. having a non-binary character be Qunari is actually a pretty neat idea because Qunari have that really rigid gendered division of labor. It means being non-binary isn't just a gender thing but a kind of complete rejection of your place in society. I like that, it grounds the concept in this fantasy world a bit better.

Yeah see that's the thing, this pronoun gestapo that's in place online always felt inherently fake cause I had this friend from college back over a decade ago introduce me to the trans thing, who identified as a boy but didn't care about pronouns or how we perceived her, she was dating a dude who was straight and whatnot. She just wanted to not be excluded from traditionally male activities or treated with propriety like a lady and all that stuff. And she had a new name but that was the name I came to know her as so to me that was her name not her actual one who was mainly used by her family. But like this all was very chill. Nobody even knew she was trans if you looked at her, she just had like a pixie cut and looked totally like a girl. She randomly mentioned it during a car ride that she identified as a boy but it literally changed nothing between us cause I already treat everyone the same, prolly why we got along instantly.

All these people nowadays that make a big show of it and all this noise, it all feels artificial, like someone seeking attention and wanting society to throw them a parade or to join the victim class and be justifiably aggrieved at the world around them despite being a white male or whatever (the correct tactic is to reject aggrievement politics entirely but alas, other can of worms), nothing like my friend who just wanted to partake in the dirty jokes and be one of the guys when we played blazblue all night or what have you. You can just be yourself without making a fuss about it.

 

[BrawlMan]

I beat a few of the optional dragon bosses in the game including the final super boss one while 14 levels underleveled. Turns out they all fight exactly the same which different colors to their magics, so once you master one dragon you basically beat them all.

Old school lazy color swaps for the win! That's true old school gaming right there!

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

I'm guessing I'm about a quarter of the way into the game because I got all the companions on my team. And basically I agree with u/CriticalGaming for the most part, with two exceptions:

1- I haven't heard a single pronoun yet so all these posts about all the politics culture war crap- I dunno what y'all are even on about.

2- The combat feels fine, it's basically God of War: Ragnarok, which I had mixed feelings about but enjoyed for an hour or two of gameplay at a time (which is all I'm doing these days anyway).

This game is like an AssCreed- I agree with all of the (non-internet-politics-misogyny crap) common critiques but I just enjoy them for what they are and relish in the actual fun, which is the playing of the game. Like a decent but not great action movie where the dialogue is either a good time to take a piss or zone out or revel in the tropes.

Ok sure it's like it's for CW watching tweens- well, what's wrong with that, that's also like the entire MCU since Thor 3 and most of recent Star Wars.

I should point out that I don't have a particular loyalty or nostalgia for Dragon Age. I liked Inquisition and played Origins in order to experience that beloved classic and while I enjoyed it, I never held it to any kind of special regard. The last game was ten years ago, and was already a series that veered wildly all over the place, so anyone who talks about a "real DA" or some such is to me a worse writer than anything in Veilguard.

I think it helps me that I chose the Warrior class- everyone I've seen talking about it is a mage or rogue. My replay of Elden Ring just reminded me that I'm happy smashing things and I absolutely love that Veilguard allows warriors to switch between sword 'n' board and two-handed smashies. And that I can throw my shield like Captain America.

One major pet peeve of mine is the "RPG elements" of the game- it's like every AAA action game or RPG that lets you make pointless choices. Skill trees that don't seem to matter much and dialogue options that change nothing. But, again, this is just AAA gaming as a whole at this point- it's like complaining about the half-hour of pre-movie ads at the theaters, you just gotta decide if you're willing to deal with the crap for the fun stuff.

One major disagreement I have with the consensus negative opinion is that art style, that it looks like Fortnite or whatever. I mean- so what, it's fine, why does everything have to look like some platonic ideal? I think people just assumed because they have fond memories of a 20 year old game while still waiting for Elder Scrolls 6 they had this idea in mind and it's not that but that's their problem.

 

[BrawlMan]

One major disagreement I have with the consensus negative opinion is that art style, that it looks like Fortnite or whatever. I mean- so what, it's fine, why does everything have to look like some platonic ideal? I think people just assumed because they have fond memories of a 20 year old game while still waiting for Elder Scrolls 6 they had this idea in mind and it's not that but that's their problem.

Thank you for calling out the extra bullshit! This is why I love you!

it's like complaining about the half-hour of pre-movie ads at the theaters,

Not at the MJR. They do 15 minute ads total and that's it. It and the Riviera are the only theaters I go to now. Sometimes the Birmingham 8, but the parking sucks.

 

[Dreiko]

I don't have a problem with the art style in this game, I just don't like the redesign of the qunari who used to be my favorite race. They're too soft-looking. They look like weird humans with protruding heads, not like an altogether different species. I used to be so happy that you could play one in Inquisition but here I'll just play a human again.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

I don't have a problem with the art style in this game, I just don't like the redesign of the qunari who used to be my favorite race. They're too soft-looking. They look like weird humans with protruding heads, not like an altogether different species. I used to be so happy that you could play one in Inquisition but here I'll just play a human again.

Yes this I agree with, they look dumb. I also was considering playing a Qunari until I saw their dumb faces, so I went with elf chick, which in retrospect seems to be my fantasy game default.