E3-2021 MEGATHREAD!!!

Chimpzy

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IDK if it's because of 2d to 3d transition, but something about the remaster feels.... off? Like, I can't help but feel the 16-bit sprite looks better than the 3d models
You're not the first I've seen mentioned they prefer the old sprite art. And I can understand why. Despite the new visuals being way more advanced, the old sprites have great designs with lots of character and a certain timelessness, and they also have that snappiness in their animation that gives them an energy that is really hard to reproduce in 3d models.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Not sure how much of a personality Samus had before Othe M, but okay...
More broadly, this is an explicit problem with any game series that has a recurring protagonist which serves as a tabula rasa for purposes of player self-insertion, that tries to develop a more heavily narrative focus as the series progresses. The other big game franchise that immediately springs to mind, being Halo -- getting back on track being Infinite was showcased further at E3.

Which, 343i has handled the transition arguably worse than Metroid -- look at Halo fans' lukewarm rejection of John-117's characterization in 4 and 5, antipathy towards Arby's character development, and outright rejection of Locke's and Buck's characterization. Those were the characters in the games -- gamers who followed the Halo multimedia works and expanded universe didn't react well to how the rest of Blue Team, or Fireteam Osiris, were characterized in the game either.

Self-insert tabula rasa protagonists are vehicles for player headcanon. Players take their headcanon online, discuss, and it develops into this generalized consensus of what the character should be, and at times that gets pretty divorced from what game series' really portray or what may hold versimilitude within the context of the games or the universe at large. And, developers have to thread the needle of creating characterization that gels with that consensus, and if that characterization doesn't play into gamers' perception of that character, or worse challenges or contradicts it, boy howdy they'd better watch out.

Some developers lean heavy into that consensus and have fun with it -- which is what Bethesda did with their take on the Doom series. And, that's fine. But, 343 Industries dared to challenge gamers' perception of John-117, by forcing them to rethink John's humanity -- and what it really means to be an iconic, genetically- and cybernetically-altered and brainwashed, supersoldier who has never had nor ever will have by merit of his own existence a normal life. And on the meta level, challenge players to rethink how their perception of John-117 mirrors the in-universe dehumanization and instrumentalization he's faced at the hands of...well, the rest of humanity.

To say most Halo fans missed the forest for the trees, is the understatement of that entire console generation.
 

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Looking back on the advance war remaster. I think I may have been a little too excited.

IDK if it's because of 2d to 3d transition, but something about the remaster feels.... off? Like, I can't help but feel the 16-bit sprite looks better than the 3d models
I similarly lack enthusiasm.

It's not just the spritework (the character artwork is fine, the sprite artwork looks far too 'loose' and 'plastic'), but this is nothing more than a re-release. Which is...good, I guess, but give me Advance Wars 5, and then we can talk.

More broadly, this is an explicit problem with any game series that has a recurring protagonist which serves as a tabula rasa for purposes of player self-insertion, that tries to develop a more heavily narrative focus as the series progresses. The other big game franchise that immediately springs to mind, being Halo -- getting back on track being Infinite was showcased further at E3.

Which, 343i has handled the transition arguably worse than Metroid -- look at Halo fans' lukewarm rejection of John-117's characterization in 4 and 5, antipathy towards Arby's character development, and outright rejection of Locke's and Buck's characterization. Those were the characters in the games -- gamers who followed the Halo multimedia works and expanded universe didn't react well to how the rest of Blue Team, or Fireteam Osiris, were characterized in the game either.

Self-insert tabula rasa protagonists are vehicles for player headcanon. Players take their headcanon online, discuss, and it develops into this generalized consensus of what the character should be, and at times that gets pretty divorced from what game series' really portray or what may hold versimilitude within the context of the games or the universe at large. And, developers have to thread the needle of creating characterization that gels with that consensus, and if that characterization doesn't play into gamers' perception of that character, or worse challenges or contradicts it, boy howdy they'd better watch out.

Some developers lean heavy into that consensus and have fun with it -- which is what Bethesda did with their take on the Doom series. And, that's fine. But, 343 Industries dared to challenge gamers' perception of John-117, by forcing them to rethink John's humanity -- and what it really means to be an iconic, genetically- and cybernetically-altered and brainwashed, supersoldier who has never had nor ever will have by merit of his own existence a normal life. And on the meta level, challenge players to rethink how their perception of John-117 mirrors the in-universe dehumanization and instrumentalization he's faced at the hands of...well, the rest of humanity.

To say most Halo fans missed the forest for the trees, is the understatement of that entire console generation.
I disagree with almost all of that.

First, Samus hasn't been a self-insert since arguably the outset, and certainly lost any tabula rasa status by Super Metroid.

Second, I haven't seen Halo fans react the way you described - not really. I haven't seen people reject Buck's characteization in H5 (if anything, everyone seems to like Buck), and if they have, the characterization hasn't changed since ODST. People don't like Locke much, but people have never liked Locke, period (I don't really get why, but whatever). I haven't seen antipathy towards the Arbiter either, if anything, he remains one of the most popular characters. And if we're talking about Blue Team and Osiris in H5, lots of people dislike the plot of H5, but I've never seen a hangup over the teams specifically, except maybe the presence of Osiris at all, when they'd rather play as Blue Team.

(I disagree with almost all of the criticism of H5, but that's another matter.)

If we're talking about John specifically, this is the one thing I can sort of agree with, in that I've seen people criticize him being too emotional in H4. I find this criticism weird, since John's become more of a character with each passing game (he's more of a character in H2 than H1, and more of a character in H3 than H2), but it's at least a criticism I've seen. But while John has a better claim to be a tabula rasa than Samus (at least in the 2D games, Prime Samus is another story), John's always had a character separate from the player. Even if you've only played the games, the distinction is made as soon as he engages in dialogue with Keyes and Cortana.

And maybe players missed the forest for the trees, I dunno, but there's plenty to criticize H4 for regardless of John. If anything, how the game handles John and Cortana is one of the few things I like about H4.
 

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You're not the first I've seen mentioned they prefer the old sprite art. And I can understand why. Despite the new visuals being way more advanced, the old sprites have great designs with lots of character and a certain timelessness, and they also have that snappiness in their animation that gives them an energy that is really hard to reproduce in 3d models.
Comparing the two, I also agree that the more exaggerated and fast reactions of the combat scenes in the original look better compared to the more realistic look of the remake. Feel they should have "hammed it up" a bit more with the animations.
 

Eacaraxe

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First, Samus hasn't been a self-insert since arguably the outset, and certainly lost any tabula rasa status by Super Metroid.
That's been largely my argument, pointing out how in Metroid II the player had no agency in the decision to spare the hatchling metroid. Alas, that's neither here nor there as the perception of the character as tabula rasa has persevered, as indicated by the pushback against Fusion's increased dialogue and all. I'll happily grant audiences have received mixed signals through the Prime trilogy because it really reinforces the point, but again the issue is the growing discrepancy between perception and reality with the Metroid series that unfortunately came to a head with Other M.

Metroid II representing something of a blind spot for most Metroid players, it'll be interesting to see how this is reconciled in Metroid Dread and whether it effectively revives the series. I certainly hope so being a Metroid fan from the original game, but I do worry MercuryStream overcorrects and pushes Samus back into the "tabula rasa" camp.

Second, I haven't seen Halo fans react the way you described - not really. I haven't seen people reject Buck's characteization in H5 (if anything, everyone seems to like Buck), and if they have, the characterization hasn't changed since ODST. People don't like Locke much, but people have never liked Locke, period (I don't really get why, but whatever). I haven't seen antipathy towards the Arbiter either, if anything, he remains one of the most popular characters. And if we're talking about Blue Team and Osiris in H5, lots of people dislike the plot of H5, but I've never seen a hangup over the teams specifically, except maybe the presence of Osiris at all, when they'd rather play as Blue Team.
I have seen pushback against Buck in Halo 5, and that people did like Buck in ODST is basically the root cause of it. Most criticism of it seems to stem from Buck playing a second-string, comedy relief and pratfall-magnet, marginally fish out of water, foil to Locke, whereas in ODST he was a far more serious, competent character. I think people are reading a bit of Nathan Fillion's typecasting into the character, but let's be honest, typecasting was what got him cast as Buck in the first place. Buck in many ways reflected Mal's more serious nature rather than his goofier nature, and 343 made the decision to play up the latter in contrast to his portrayal in ODST and that threw off a lot of people.

I do very much get the hate for Locke. Locke is in my opinion, for better or worse, a borderline satirical take of players' assumptions of John-117 in the Bungie trilogy. I think it was more on the nose than a lot of Halo fans are willing to admit, and I think unconscious resentment towards 343 is a lot of it. But the lion's share of it is definitely the shock of not playing John-117 in a mainline Halo game.

Because let's not forget, gamers reacted identically to Arby when Halo 2 came out. It took until 3 for gamers to warm up to Arby, but that initial shock and resentment was still there. He's an established and well-regarded character now, but that's neither here nor there. And, the antipathy towards him in H5 in my opinion stems from his underuse in the game.

...John's always had a character separate from the player. Even if you've only played the games, the distinction is made as soon as he engages in dialogue with Keyes and Cortana.
Honestly, that's where the brilliance of Bungie's writing shines through. John-117 had dialogue, but dialogue alone does not characterization make. John-117's dialogue in the Bungie trilogy was written broadly enough, and congruent enough with Bungie's storytelling, they could give him the dialogue they did without necessarily breaking self-insertion fantasy. Because they had smart enough writers, to nudge the player into thinking the same way they would write John-117 to put to voice.

In other words, they wrote the game in such a way to ensure when John-117 said something, it would be what the player was already thinking, due to the circumstances the writers had already established. That's where 343 fucked up with Halo 4.

Just as one particularly noteworthy example, Del Rio was an absolute jackass, but he was absolutely, positively, unambiguously correct in his tactical and strategic appraisal of the Infinity's circumstances on Requiem. Infinity's situation was untenable and its value as a strategic asset was far too great to risk hunting a rogue Forerunner with two armies at his beck and call. Cortana was inarguably rampant, and John-117 -- the Spartan nevertheless, but still clearly emotionally-compromised and possessed of conflicted interest -- had no evidence to back up his claims.

And moreover, while John-117's personal success record speaks for itself, so does his propensity for collateral damage. Fat lot of good it would have done to go on John-117's word, get Infinity destroyed in the process, and lose the UNSC's biggest strategic asset in the face of a two-front war against not just the Covenant, but goddamn Forerunners and their constructs.

The only reason anyone would have sided with John-117 over Del Rio in that scene, was because of the non-diegetic reason that as the story's protagonist, obviously John-117 was right from a metatextual perspective.
 

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So you know how EA will have their event in a month right? Well, they are planning on adding a revival to one of their ips:

This news kinda scares me; because this would be just anout any revival. On one hand, this could be a new dead space game. On the other hand, I'm scared on how EA will fuck this up
 

Chimpzy

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So you know how EA will have their event in a month right? Well, they are planning on adding a revival to one of their ips:

This news kinda scares me; because this would be just anout any revival. On one hand, this could be a new dead space game. On the other hand, I'm scared on how EA will fuck this up
A reboot of [insert preferred EA franchise here], but with so much EA shenanigans that you could hold you AAA BS Bingo™ card ready at the start of the announcement and be done by the time whoever is hosting finishes their first sentence.
 

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So you know how EA will have their event in a month right? Well, they are planning on adding a revival to one of their ips:

This news kinda scares me; because this would be just anout any revival. On one hand, this could be a new dead space game. On the other hand, I'm scared on how EA will fuck this up
You want Dead Space 4? Here you go. The team is mostly made up of former Visceral developers.

 
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Chimpzy

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You want Dead Space 4? Here you go. The team is mostly made up of former Visceral developers.

Oh wow, you weren't kidding, it straight up is Dead Space. Like, "EA is gonna sue" levels of blatant.
 

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Oh wow, you weren't kidding, it straight up is Dead Space. Like, "EA is gonna sue" levels of blatant.
Konami did not once bother suing Koji Igarashi for Bloodstained. I highly doubt EA is going to do the same to these guys and gals.
 

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I have seen pushback against Buck in Halo 5, and that people did like Buck in ODST is basically the root cause of it. Most criticism of it seems to stem from Buck playing a second-string, comedy relief and pratfall-magnet, marginally fish out of water, foil to Locke, whereas in ODST he was a far more serious, competent character.
Really don't agree there. Buck's pretty much the same character in both games. He's hardly the comic relief of Osiris - he might have a wisecrack or two, but that's it.

Personally, I think making Buck (and all of Alpha-Nine bar Dare) Spartan-IVs was silly, but again, another issue.

I do very much get the hate for Locke. Locke is in my opinion, for better or worse, a borderline satirical take of players' assumptions of John-117 in the Bungie trilogy. I think it was more on the nose than a lot of Halo fans are willing to admit, and I think unconscious resentment towards 343 is a lot of it. But the lion's share of it is definitely the shock of not playing John-117 in a mainline Halo game.
I don't think Locke is meant to 'be' anything. Locke is just, well, some guy. In theory, Locke and Osiris are symbolic of the Spartan-IVs replacing the Spartan-IIs, but that's a theme that neither H4 or H5 are really interested in exploring.

I agree that some resentment towards Locke is from not playing as John for the majority of H5, but it's another complaint I don't agree with. The series is called "Halo," not "Master Chief," and plenty of games haven't featured John at all. Yes, John's been the 'face' of Halo for awhile, but that doesn't mean he should always be the protagonist.

Honestly, that's where the brilliance of Bungie's writing shines through. John-117 had dialogue, but dialogue alone does not characterization make. John-117's dialogue in the Bungie trilogy was written broadly enough, and congruent enough with Bungie's storytelling, they could give him the dialogue they did without necessarily breaking self-insertion fantasy. Because they had smart enough writers, to nudge the player into thinking the same way they would write John-117 to put to voice. In other words, they wrote the game in such a way to ensure when John-117 said something, it would be what the player was already thinking, due to the circumstances the writers had already established. That's where 343 fucked up with Halo 4.
Maybe, but that doesn't change how John becomes more of a character from H1 to H3, at least in as much that he gets more lines per game, and his motivations tend to become more personal. Don't care about Johnson or Cortana? Don't think John should become friends with the sangheili who glassed Reach? Well, tough. Whatever gripes I might have with 343, as far as characterizing John goes, they're continuing the trend that Bungie started.

Just as one particularly noteworthy example, Del Rio was an absolute jackass, but he was absolutely, positively, unambiguously correct in his tactical and strategic appraisal of the Infinity's circumstances on Requiem. Infinity's situation was untenable and its value as a strategic asset was far too great to risk hunting a rogue Forerunner with two armies at his beck and call. Cortana was inarguably rampant, and John-117 -- the Spartan nevertheless, but still clearly emotionally-compromised and possessed of conflicted interest -- had no evidence to back up his claims.

And moreover, while John-117's personal success record speaks for itself, so does his propensity for collateral damage. Fat lot of good it would have done to go on John-117's word, get Infinity destroyed in the process, and lose the UNSC's biggest strategic asset in the face of a two-front war against not just the Covenant, but goddamn Forerunners and their constructs.

The only reason anyone would have sided with John-117 over Del Rio in that scene, was because of the non-diegetic reason that as the story's protagonist, obviously John-117 was right from a metatextual perspective.
Del Rio's a weird case, and IMO, you're giving the writers too much credit.

Del Rio's a character the player's meant to dislike, even if there's an argument to be made for pulling back from Requiem. We're meant to dislike him because he's an asshole, and because the UNSC apparently agrees he's an asshole, because Lasky's been put in charge of Infinity by the time that John and the Didact reach Earth. So yes, we're expected to agree with John, even if he's emotionally compromised (and Cortana's literally compromised), but I don't think there's some great theme here. It's simply "Del Rio's an asshole, so don't agree with the asshole."

Konami did not once bother suing Koji Igarashi for Bloodstained.
How cute, you think Konami actually cares about its IPs. :p
 

Eacaraxe

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Really don't agree there. Buck's pretty much the same character in both games. He's hardly the comic relief of Osiris - he might have a wisecrack or two, but that's it.
There was more there than that, out of focus and more subtextual: Buck questioning whether it was a good decision to join the Spartan-IV program, being used as the guinea pig for Locke's armor locking device, not getting as many "omgsocool" cutscene moments as other members of Fireteam Osiris, and the like. The totality of the portrayal being, Buck's a poor fit for...well to be frank, animu bullshit team.

Personally, I think making Buck (and all of Alpha-Nine bar Dare) Spartan-IVs was silly, but again, another issue...Locke and Osiris are symbolic of the Spartan-IVs replacing the Spartan-IIs, but that's a theme that neither H4 or H5 are really interested in exploring.
That was a huge chunk of the problem. Humanity uplifting itself to its prehistoric glory has been the thematic elephant in the room for the supposed "Reclaimer trilogy". Halo 4 introduced the theme well enough, bringing back plot seeds that were planted as far back as Halo: CE, but Halo 5 really dropped the ball in how it waffled about representing Spartan-IV's.

Had they done something like UNSC and ONI deciding to decommission the ODST program, and giving active-duty ODST's a choice of joining the Spartan-IV program, folding back into regular service, or early discharge, it would have reinforced that theme of humanity being in a period of rapid, seismic advancement. Then Buck's characterization would have been more sensible, representing skepticism towards humanity's advancement, forcing the player to consider what of those left behind, and leaving the player to question what of humanity will be discarded to make these massive technological, societal, and cultural leaps. And he would have have a definite niche within Fireteam Osiris, representing the team's conscience and sense of morality in the face of superhuman augmentation and equipment.

Which sadly, because 343 seems to want to get "back to form" with Infinite, it seems this incredibly fertile ground for compelling storytelling entirely consistent with past games -- including Halo 5 -- is just going to be left behind. Done right, it would have retroactively made Halo 5 a better game than it was, giving it an effective place in Halo canon.

Maybe, but that doesn't change how John becomes more of a character from H1 to H3, at least in as much that he gets more lines per game, and his motivations tend to become more personal. Don't care about Johnson or Cortana? Don't think John should become friends with the sangheili who glassed Reach? Well, tough. Whatever gripes I might have with 343, as far as characterizing John goes, they're continuing the trend that Bungie started.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Did players cotton to John-117's characterization in the second or third games because Bungie wrote him congruent with players' expectations, or did they spend their time subtly and intentionally crafting player expectations to set up story beats in later games? Or more to the point, John-117 is still as much a self-insert in Halo 5 as he was in Halo: CE -- because the writers, frankly, manipulated players over the course of several games into having the same opinions and reactions John-117 would in game.

Del Rio's a weird case, and IMO, you're giving the writers too much credit.
I'm not giving 343's writers credit for anything -- I'm pointing out how badly they dropped the ball on that.

...because the UNSC apparently agrees he's an asshole, because Lasky's been put in charge of Infinity by the time that John and the Didact reach Earth.
Yeah, that in particular is a story beat that makes no damn sense, Del Rio made the right call. Players only accept it because Del Rio is the designated asshole, John-117 is the designated hero, Cortana is the designated damsel, and it's cathartic to see Del Rio "get what's coming to him" for defying the designated hero.

Halo fans love to compare that to Cutter's badass speech of badassitude in Halo Wars 2, saying shit like "that's how a real UNSC captain handles adversity, stand and fight rah rah!". Completely -- somehow -- missing the point Spirit of Fire nuked its own slipspace drive, was down its military AI and had to make do with a civvie logistics AI, and was critically low on (severely outdated) manpower and materiel. Cutter had no choice but to commit himself and his assets to a suicide mission, had to distract his subordinates from that it was a suicide mission, and had to boost morale while getting them on the task of maximizing their odds of survival, let alone victory. Especially after Isabel's dumb ass just blabbed an otherwise spot-on appraisal of the tactical situation to the entire fucking command deck.

"How a real UNSC captain handles adversity"...yeah, just not in the way most Halo fans noticed. Because it was probably the best-written, blocked, framed, and animated scene in the entire game series to date. The subtext of that scene is incredibly important -- the cuts to the command crew showing the impact Isabel's dialogue is having on them; Jerome-092's body language shifting to "shut the fuck up" mode; Cutter looking around to assess how much damage Isabel just did; Isabel's facial expression shifting from openly and angrily defiant, to embarrassed and humbled, as she figures out Cutter's damn well aware of the situation and is covering for her massive morale-killing fuck-up; Cutter and Jerome-092 sharing a look and nod because they know what's up and their only hope is to fully commit.
 
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Dalisclock

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Konami did not once bother suing Koji Igarashi for Bloodstained. I highly doubt EA is going to do the same to these guys and gals.
Honestly kinda shocked, really. Even though Konami presumably has no plans to do shit with Castlevania for the foreseeable future(besides the license for the show and the rerelease compilations), most corpos get all pissy when they detect anyone having fun with their toys without their say so, even if those toys have been locked in a dusty box in the basement for a decade.

Kinda like SE did with the Chrono Trigger fan game, despite SE having shown literally no interest in CT since the 1990's.
Chrono game fans: "So can we make a fan game and not sell it or anything? You're not doing any more Chrono stuff"
SE: "Eat shit and die, fuckers! Cease and Desist"
 

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Honestly kinda shocked, really. Even though Konami presumably has no plans to do shit with Castlevania for the foreseeable future(besides the license for the show and the rerelease compilations), most corpos get all pissy when they detect anyone having fun with their toys without their say so, even if those toys have been locked in a dusty box in the basement for a decade.

Kinda like SE did with the Chrono Trigger fan game, despite SE having shown literally no interest in CT since the 1990's.
Chrono game fans: "So can we make a fan game and not sell it or anything? You're not doing any more Chrono stuff"
SE: "Eat shit and die, fuckers! Cease and Desist"
Japanese corporation seem to do it worse than the Western corporations most of the time, when it comes to these situations. I remember when Sega knew full well about the Streets of Rage Remake and they even encouraged bomber games. They had no problems and did not interfere for years despite the game being developed since 2008. Long after version 4 and 5 were completed, all sudden around 2015 and 2016, Sega start doing all these cease and desist orders on Streets of Rage Remake . And I'm like, why? You all knew about this, what makes it so special now. Eventually found out that they were outsourcing Streets of Rage 4 to a developer. But no one knew this until 2018 when Streets of Rage 4 got announced.

Nintendo did the same thing for the Metroid 2 fan remake. They knew about it for years and did nothing. The only difference is that they didn't say anything, unlike Sega. Eventually we find out they're remaking Metroid 2 on a 3ds, but once again, Nintendo refuse not to bring it up to anyone nor politely ask them to take it down. At least Capcom was polite with the fans who were making the Resident Evil 2 fan remake. They eventually decided to do their own game and that led to Daymare 1998.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Honestly kinda shocked, really. Even though Konami presumably has no plans to do shit with Castlevania for the foreseeable future(besides the license for the show and the rerelease compilations), most corpos get all pissy when they detect anyone having fun with their toys without their say so, even if those toys have been locked in a dusty box in the basement for a decade.

Kinda like SE did with the Chrono Trigger fan game, despite SE having shown literally no interest in CT since the 1990's.
Chrono game fans: "So can we make a fan game and not sell it or anything? You're not doing any more Chrono stuff"
SE: "Eat shit and die, fuckers! Cease and Desist"
Worse is stuff like where a person will pay full price to buy a license from a corporation that hasn't done anything with it for over a decade and they STILL won't sell it.
 
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