EA Hosting Panel on Homophobia in Gaming

[squid5580]

Can't playing dress up with your avatar and dashboard fall into playing a game. Or do you want to argue semantics now?

No, I want to point out that sex chat can be role playing--is role playing not a game?

BTW (again assuming the role of Bill Gates) if I let the profile thing go they way you want it

I'm not even sure if I *do* want it. I just don't like the ban being justified with bad arguments.

Focus Cheese focus. Sex chat on XBL and profiles again 2 different things. Can mute the 2 getting all hot and horny.

Simple provide some good arguements on why it should be lifted. Counterpoint any or all of my bad arguements with logical good ones. I have tried and I can't and the only one I have heard is the "my feelings" one that everyone clings to. Or the whole it is who we are and therefore not controversial to us and it shouldn't be to you. Which is one I do agree with as a human being. Just not one I would agree with if it was my business that dealt with people from all over the world who I had to make as happy as possible.

 

[squid5580]

Simple provide some good arguements on why it should be lifted. Counterpoint any or all of my bad arguements with logical good ones. I have tried and I can't and the only one I have heard is the "my feelings" one that everyone clings to. Or the whole it is who we are and therefore not controversial to us and it shouldn't be to you. Which is one I do agree with as a human being. Just not one I would agree with if it was my business that dealt with people from all over the world who I had to make as happy as possible.

Yeah, but you've only lately started pushing that about the business justification. Don't make like you've been saying that all along. Just because you came up with a new argument in the last couple of comments doesn't allow you to say people aren't giving your good arguments as counterpoints--they were applicable to the arguments you were making. Before you were arguing stuff like how people shouldn't complain about this kind of thing because it will give them ulcers. That has nothing to do with your recent adoption of this 'they are only doing it for business purposes' argument.

Exactly worrying about someone calling you a name online isn't worth crying over. And I wasn't the first one to put it out there that this is business. Just no one wanted to hear it since it wasn't worded the way you want. But you are right I am the only one who has twisted the arguement to suit my needs. My bad. If I was arguing the business side I would say stuff like "in the best interest of the XBL community" assuming it doesn't take rocket science to figure out "the community" =$$$$. I guess it is a bit harder to take that out of context and twist it however you want though.

Thanks for boostin the post count. It's been real.

 

[bodyklok]

*snip*

I have no idea what any of that means.

C_P, I've been trying to follow your discussion on and off for a few days now. Unfourunatly I've neither the time nor the stamina to read it all, could you explain what you've been discussing please? Just so I can lay my mind to rest.

 

[bodyklok]

*snip*

I have no idea what any of that means.

C_P, I've been trying to follow your discussion on and off for a few days now. Unfourunatly I've neither the time nor the stamina to read it all, could you explain what you've been discussing please? Just so I can lay my mind to rest.

It started with someone telling people they are wrong because "gay people figure they are above the laws of simple social etiquette" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.125124#2595211] and is ending when that person has finally fallen back to the stance that it's not immoral because it's just business.

I had neither the time nor the stamina to then ask about segregation.

I would of either died of exhaustion or gone crazy had I not read that.

 

[squid5580]

*snip*

I have no idea what any of that means.

Easy when the wrong words are used instead of looking at the meaning of it you just take it out of context. When it is worded perfectly you change the topic instead of offering up a counterpoint. While avoiding any direct questions or posts you don't have an answer for.

 

[Amnestic]

*snip*

I have no idea what any of that means.

Easy when the wrong words are used instead of looking at the meaning of it you just take it out of context. When it is worded perfectly you change the topic instead of offering up a counterpoint. While avoiding any direct questions or posts you don't have an answer for.

It doesn't help that your last post read like it had been run through an online translation service five times.

Be honest, did they ever teach you how to construct a coherent paragraph in school?

 

[squid5580]

*snip*

I have no idea what any of that means.

C_P, I've been trying to follow your discussion on and off for a few days now. Unfourunatly I've neither the time nor the stamina to read it all, could you explain what you've been discussing please? Just so I can lay my mind to rest.

It started with someone telling people they are wrong because "gay people figure they are above the laws of simple social etiquette" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.125124#2595211] and is ending when that person has finally fallen back to the stance that it's not immoral because it's just business.

I had neither the time nor the stamina to then ask about segregation.

You forgot to mention how this is about a worldwide service. Not one that is based soley in one country that follows specific rules. Or is it your constitution should apply to the entire world and each countries beliefs and traditions are rendered moot? Or how infringing on the religious beliefs of another citizen that is protected by the same constitution?

Oh yeah I forgot putting the fact one is a homosexual in thier XBL profile is far more important than any of that.

Of course adressing that couldn't keep this arguement in perpetual motion

 

[squid5580]

You forgot to mention how this is about a worldwide service. Not one that is based soley in one country that follows specific rules. Or is it your constitution should apply to the entire world and each countries beliefs and traditions are rendered moot?

Actually, the Declaration of Independence does read: "We hold these truths to be self-evident" and that there are "laws of nature and of nature's God."

I don't understand what you mean by this? Here is what I think you are saying and I really hope that I am wrong. *That if I live in a culture where homosexuality is wrong. That the beliefs I was raised by don't matter to Americans even though I have never stepped foot on your soil and therefore they can be disregarded the second they don't agree with yours. That my beliefs don't matter when put up against yours.

*a hypothetical.

 

[Jacobistheshiz]

"Panelists will be addressing such issues as how to provide safe spaces for LGBT people online, how to ensure the best policies are in place to prevent virtual attacks against LGBT people and how to educate the users of online communities about the effects of homophobia," GLAAD wrote.

First off WHAT THE FUCK!?! Where the hell are the KKK on XBLA? I never knew people where gay bashing people. That must make a deathmatch real hateful and unpleasent.
Also things like this are politicaly incorrect. We are supposed to treat everyone equaly, but treat anyone different special.
This is just a way to mask online policeing, and removeing rights.

 

[squid5580]

You forgot to mention how this is about a worldwide service. Not one that is based soley in one country that follows specific rules. Or is it your constitution should apply to the entire world and each countries beliefs and traditions are rendered moot?

Actually, the Declaration of Independence does read: "We hold these truths to be self-evident" and that there are "laws of nature and of nature's God."

I don't understand what you mean by this? Here is what I think you are saying and I really hope that I am wrong. *That if I live in a culture where homosexuality is wrong. That the beliefs I was raised by don't matter to Americans even though I have never stepped foot on your soil and therefore they can be disregarded the second they don't agree with yours. That my beliefs don't matter when put up against yours.

Nope--you're free to believe anything inside your own head. Just like here in America--you can be the biggest bigot in history inside the privacy of your own head (and thanks to the 1st Amendment, when you speak). However, you are NOT free to oppress people just because you claim they are part of your 'culture'. I'm not saying every American law on civil rights is the only true expression of human rights; however, in the broadest sense, yes--membership in any 'culture' is voluntary and no one can use that as an excuse to violate the human rights of any other human being against their will.

Ok so in the issue at hand where is the oppression? Where is the human rights violation even in the slightest. Where does it say one group has any more rights to do with what they will in thier profile than another? This is what I have been saying all along. I can't put into my profile "I am hetrosexual" any more than you can put in yours "I am homosexual". If I am caught I face the banhammer just like you. Oh right because it is "automatically assumed I am straight" and I say "ya by other straight people." We usually think of people as being the same as us. It would be safe to say that it could be "automatically assumed I am gay" if the person assuming is gay.

If the CoC said "if we find out you are homosexual or mention it on XBL you will be banned" then you would have a valid arguement. You are right when you said that the CoC is not noble it is purely made out of protecting thier own asses. Something in a day and age where a woman can sue when she spills coffee on her lap and win millions is something they have to do.

Nowhere did I read in the CoC that you can't tell me your sexual preference or orientation (since preference sounds like a choice). Nowhere does it say you can't go into a room of any game and say "I'm a homosexual." I can pretty much guarantee you will get the same responses as you would out in the real world. Some will say "that is a sin/gross/disgusting/homophobic remarks ect", some will say "hey so am I", and others will say "shut up and play douchebag cuz we don't care." And when MS was making the CoC I am quite certain they decided not to allow sexual orientation in profiles not because they are playing the "don't ask, don't tell" game but because they want, no expect people to use discretion with such matters. I don't know about homosexuals but when I order a coffee I don't say "black 2 sugars and I am a hetrosexual." (well OK I might if I was single and the cashier was hot but I would probably try a better pick up line than that first). It just doesn't seem like the right thing to do in a civilized society. If I walked into said coffee shop holding another man's hand I would expect them to be able to put 2 and 2 together. Just like if I went in holding my wife's hand. And if I never did either I would tell the cashier eventually if we were developing a friendship. I see no need to wave my sexual orientation like a flag for the world to see. And I expect the same courtesy from a stranger.

 

[cobra_ky]

i took a couple days off of this thread because i was afraid i was dragging it out unnecessarily. but i'm happy to see it has continued to go completely off the rails in my absence. ^_^

If the CoC said "if we find out you are homosexual or mention it on XBL you will be banned" then you would have a valid arguement. You are right when you said that the CoC is not noble it is purely made out of protecting thier own asses. Something in a day and age where a woman can sue when she spills coffee on her lap and win millions is something they have to do.

this argument is going to be shot down the first time a gay XBL user sues microsoft for the same reason <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93314-Agoraphobic-PS3-Owner-Sues-Sony-over-PSN-Ban>this guy sued Sony. if anything, this policy increases their exposure to potential lawsuits.

Nowhere did I read in the CoC that you can't tell me your sexual preference or orientation (since preference sounds like a choice). Nowhere does it say you can't go into a room of any game and say "I'm a homosexual." I can pretty much guarantee you will get the same responses as you would out in the real world. Some will say "that is a sin/gross/disgusting/homophobic remarks ect", some will say "hey so am I", and others will say "shut up and play douchebag cuz we don't care." And when MS was making the CoC I am quite certain they decided not to allow sexual orientation in profiles not because they are playing the "don't ask, don't tell" game but because they want, no expect people to use discretion with such matters.

like i said before, i'm sure microsoft had good intentions when they decided on the code of conduct. that's nice to know, but the reality is that the policy, as implemented, is discriminatory.

homosexuals but when I order a coffee I don't say "black 2 sugars and I am a hetrosexual." (well OK I might if I was single and the cashier was hot but I would probably try a better pick up line than that first). It just doesn't seem like the right thing to do in a civilized society. If I walked into said coffee shop holding another man's hand I would expect them to be able to put 2 and 2 together. Just like if I went in holding my wife's hand. And if I never did either I would tell the cashier eventually if we were developing a friendship. I see no need to wave my sexual orientation like a flag for the world to see. And I expect the same courtesy from a stranger.

putting your sexual orientation in your profile is much more akin to walking in holding another man's hand. saying "coffee, 2 sugars, BTW i'm gay" is much more like saying "i'm gay" in voice chat which you don't seem to have as much of a problem with.

and i see no need to wave my nationality around for the world to see, but some people do, and i don't "expect the same courtesy" from them. mainly because it's a personal decision i made, not a "courtesy".

 

[Foolishman1776]

That makes no sense: you're saying that we shouldn't change the policy of the military because we need to follow the policy of the military.

No, I'm saying that the policy is what it is, so you can't get upset with them for enforcing it, and there's no reason to change it.

 

[squid5580]

Ok so in the issue at hand where is the oppression? Where is the human rights violation even in the slightest. Where does it say one group has any more rights to do with what they will in thier profile than another? This is what I have been saying all along. I can't put into my profile

Wait, what? We weren't talking about XBL anymore. You asked me about the Constitution applying to foreign countries with different cultures--the First Amendment doesn't apply to XBL even in THIS country.

I don't know about homosexuals but when I order a coffee I don't say "black 2 sugars and I am a hetrosexual."

In D&D there was an old Psionic defense called Mental Barrier: it is a carefully build wall of thought repetition which exposes only one small area of the mind at a time.

I've seen people do this kind of thing you're doing before--make one argument, have it refuted, ignore, save it for later to bring it up again--but there's never been a name for it.

I think we have one now: Mental Barrier.

See, way back in comment 438 I said:

Unless of course not being able to state your sexual orientation takes away from your fun,
that you can't play an online game with a group of strangers without all of them knowing what sex you prefer, there is no case.

I can put where I'm from in my profile--it "takes away from your fun", "you can't play an online game with a group of strangers without all of them knowing" where you live?

And now here you are, 100+ comments later going right back to the same argument about how you shouldn't put things in your profile using an argument that is completely undercut by the fact that you can put your location in your profile, unless you walk up to people and say "black 2 sugars and I live in Walla Walla WA."

If all you've got is churning up your old arguments to restate them, I think we're done here.

How does saying the INTERENT DOESN'T HAVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT turn this into a debate about the constitution? You were the one who tried to turn it into something it isn't. Don't get all bitter when I won't let you.

And maybe in the wall of text you missed it but I did bring up a new arguement. Discretion. Asking for it shouldn't be a big deal when talking about something like this. Even with the whole well you can put where you live in your profile requires some discretion. You know you shouldn't give your full address. Oh and it too is in the CoC. I guess that is location discrimination.

 

[squid5580]

i took a couple days off of this thread because i was afraid i was dragging it out unnecessarily. but i'm happy to see it has continued to go completely off the rails in my absence. ^_^

If the CoC said "if we find out you are homosexual or mention it on XBL you will be banned" then you would have a valid arguement. You are right when you said that the CoC is not noble it is purely made out of protecting thier own asses. Something in a day and age where a woman can sue when she spills coffee on her lap and win millions is something they have to do.

this argument is going to be shot down the first time a gay XBL user sues microsoft for the same reason <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93314-Agoraphobic-PS3-Owner-Sues-Sony-over-PSN-Ban>this guy sued Sony. if anything, this policy increases their exposure to potential lawsuits.

Nowhere did I read in the CoC that you can't tell me your sexual preference or orientation (since preference sounds like a choice). Nowhere does it say you can't go into a room of any game and say "I'm a homosexual." I can pretty much guarantee you will get the same responses as you would out in the real world. Some will say "that is a sin/gross/disgusting/homophobic remarks ect", some will say "hey so am I", and others will say "shut up and play douchebag cuz we don't care." And when MS was making the CoC I am quite certain they decided not to allow sexual orientation in profiles not because they are playing the "don't ask, don't tell" game but because they want, no expect people to use discretion with such matters.

like i said before, i'm sure microsoft had good intentions when they decided on the code of conduct. that's nice to know, but the reality is that the policy, as implemented, is discriminatory.

homosexuals but when I order a coffee I don't say "black 2 sugars and I am a hetrosexual." (well OK I might if I was single and the cashier was hot but I would probably try a better pick up line than that first). It just doesn't seem like the right thing to do in a civilized society. If I walked into said coffee shop holding another man's hand I would expect them to be able to put 2 and 2 together. Just like if I went in holding my wife's hand. And if I never did either I would tell the cashier eventually if we were developing a friendship. I see no need to wave my sexual orientation like a flag for the world to see. And I expect the same courtesy from a stranger.

putting your sexual orientation in your profile is much more akin to walking in holding another man's hand. saying "coffee, 2 sugars, BTW i'm gay" is much more like saying "i'm gay" in voice chat which you don't seem to have as much of a problem with.

and i see no need to wave my nationality around for the world to see, but some people do, and i don't "expect the same courtesy" from them. mainly because it's a personal decision i made, not a "courtesy".

I actually would have a problem with every room I went into everyone said thier sexual orientation. I also don't want to know what position you like or what toys you prefer. Not because I am homophobic but because it is not my business. If you are a friend and decide to tell me in chat then that is a different story.

And no matter how right or wrong I really hate to be the one to say it and make it look like I am even more homophobic than what it appears already but there is a big difference between location and sexual orientation.

Oh and thank you for bringing up the lawsuit. This is alot of the problem. First again let me point out the CoC is not discrimitory in the least. To be discrimitory it would require one side to be oppressed. The problem is that the CoC doesn't oppress 1 group but all groups when it comes to sexual orientation. So if a lawsuit were to be brought it would fail just like the agrophobic's most definitely will (just watch the vids posted by Jumpilion). It would draw alot of media attention because it is controversial but in the end if no one is allowed to do something specific like this then there is no discrimination. But in fact we are all being treated equally. Although for a group who claims to want nothing more than to be treated equal I am seeing alot of we should be able to because we are special in the arguements.

Although looking at the thread about the lesbian ban and the moron's ban I can't help but notice a huge difference in responses. When in all reality they were both banned for the same reason. They agreed to a set of rules and then broke them. He believes Sony has denied him his 1st amendment right. Is that any different with the other case?