EA Hosting Panel on Homophobia in Gaming

[squid5580]

How does saying the INTERENT DOESN'T HAVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT turn this into a debate about the constitution? You were the one who tried to turn it into something it isn't. Don't get all bitter when I won't let you.

Yeah, you have no idea what you're saying, you're just saying anything you can think of to disagree, no matter how little sense it all makes when taken as a whole.

Oh right I am the one who is doing that. Go back and reread your posts. If you are that determined to win fine you win? Happy? I can't argue with one that can't employ a brain cell to common sense. And I sure as hell can't word everything so you don't have to think about what is being said. If you can't accept you are allowed to do A but not B fine. You want to pull the discrimination card without knowing the definition of the word. Fine. You want to call me a name oh noes I better go fucking cry about it. Some random stranger from the internet insulted me boo hoo.

Ya it sounds just as stupid when you say it.

 

[squid5580]

That makes no sense: you're saying that we shouldn't change the policy of the military because we need to follow the policy of the military.

No, I'm saying that the policy is what it is, so you can't get upset with them for enforcing it, and there's no reason to change it.

Why is there no reason to change it?

You can't be that stupid. You really can't. It just isn't humanly possible. Try looking back at the last 16 pages and you can find tons of reasons not to. Or do you want to rehash the same arguement again?

 

[cobra_ky]

I actually would have a problem with every room I went into everyone said thier sexual orientation. I also don't want to know what position you like or what toys you prefer. Not because I am homophobic but because it is not my business. If you are a friend and decide to tell me in chat then that is a different story.

again, there's nothing explicitly sexual about homosexual love, just as there is nothing explicitly sexual about heterosexual love. positions and toys, on the other, ARE sexually explicit and i have no problem with microsoft or whoever taking action against that.

Oh and thank you for bringing up the lawsuit. This is alot of the problem. First again let me point out the CoC is not discrimitory in the least. To be discrimitory it would require one side to be oppressed. The problem is that the CoC doesn't oppress 1 group but all groups when it comes to sexual orientation. So if a lawsuit were to be brought it would fail just like the agrophobic's most definitely will (just watch the vids posted by Jumpilion). It would draw alot of media attention because it is controversial but in the end if no one is allowed to do something specific like this then there is no discrimination. But in fact we are all being treated equally. Although for a group who claims to want nothing more than to be treated equal I am seeing alot of we should be able to because we are special in the arguements.

the fact is we AREN'T treated equally. the fact that the code of conduct doesn't mention sexuality is irrelevant. the effect it has harms homosexuals far more than heterosexuals.


and for what i hope is the last time: no one in this thread has asked for special treatment. we're asking for change in a policy that ruins the experience for a large number of online gamers.

Although looking at the thread about the lesbian ban and the moron's ban I can't help but notice a huge difference in responses. When in all reality they were both banned for the same reason. They agreed to a set of rules and then broke them. He believes Sony has denied him his 1st amendment right. Is that any different with the other case?

we don't know what that guy did. if he was banned for as stupid a reason as this lesbian was, then i probably support him too. i suspect he was probably banned for something more reasonable, but since i know so few of the details of that case i'm not going to comment on it.

That makes no sense: you're saying that we shouldn't change the policy of the military because we need to follow the policy of the military.

No, I'm saying that the policy is what it is, so you can't get upset with them for enforcing it, and there's no reason to change it.

Why is there no reason to change it?

You can't be that stupid. You really can't. It just isn't humanly possible. Try looking back at the last 16 pages and you can find tons of reasons not to. Or do you want to rehash the same arguement again?

they're talking about the U.S. military "don't ask, don't tell" policy. i don't recall anyone offering any defense for THAT policy other than "it's the policy."

 

[squid5580]

I actually would have a problem with every room I went into everyone said thier sexual orientation. I also don't want to know what position you like or what toys you prefer. Not because I am homophobic but because it is not my business. If you are a friend and decide to tell me in chat then that is a different story.

again, there's nothing explicitly sexual about homosexual love, just as there is nothing explicitly sexual about heterosexual love. positions and toys, on the other, ARE sexually explicit and i have no problem with microsoft or whoever taking action against that.

Oh and thank you for bringing up the lawsuit. This is alot of the problem. First again let me point out the CoC is not discrimitory in the least. To be discrimitory it would require one side to be oppressed. The problem is that the CoC doesn't oppress 1 group but all groups when it comes to sexual orientation. So if a lawsuit were to be brought it would fail just like the agrophobic's most definitely will (just watch the vids posted by Jumpilion). It would draw alot of media attention because it is controversial but in the end if no one is allowed to do something specific like this then there is no discrimination. But in fact we are all being treated equally. Although for a group who claims to want nothing more than to be treated equal I am seeing alot of we should be able to because we are special in the arguements.

the fact is we AREN'T treated equally. the fact that the code of conduct doesn't mention sexuality is irrelevant. the effect it has harms homosexuals far more than heterosexuals.


and for what i hope is the last time: no one in this thread has asked for special treatment. we're asking for change in a policy that ruins the experience for a large number of online gamers.

Although looking at the thread about the lesbian ban and the moron's ban I can't help but notice a huge difference in responses. When in all reality they were both banned for the same reason. They agreed to a set of rules and then broke them. He believes Sony has denied him his 1st amendment right. Is that any different with the other case?

we don't know what that guy did. if he was banned for as stupid a reason as this lesbian was, then i probably support him too. i suspect he was probably banned for something more reasonable, but since i know so few of the details of that case i'm not going to comment on it.

That makes no sense: you're saying that we shouldn't change the policy of the military because we need to follow the policy of the military.

No, I'm saying that the policy is what it is, so you can't get upset with them for enforcing it, and there's no reason to change it.

Why is there no reason to change it?

You can't be that stupid. You really can't. It just isn't humanly possible. Try looking back at the last 16 pages and you can find tons of reasons not to. Or do you want to rehash the same arguement again?

they're talking about the U.S. military "don't ask, don't tell" policy. i don't recall anyone offering any defense for THAT policy other than "it's the policy."

My question is how? How does this have any negative effect on homosexuals? Lets put aside everything else for just one second and give me a straight answer to this question. Cuz I don't understand. The way I see it we are equal. I don't need to put in my profile I am hetrosexual or anything that implies that. I am secure enough in my sexuality I don't see any reason too. You can't just say it is discrimination since they haven't said anything about 1 group or the other. It is a policy for all.

And I can put forth a single defense you just don't like it. If you run around telling everyone when it just doesn't matter for the task at hand there are some who won't approve. And so you are just rocking the boat so to speak. Sure you can rock it all you want but the simple fact of the matter is you are accomplishing nothing by doing so. Do you think this is helping the "XBL Homophobes" gain any better understanding? Or do you think that this just crying out we ought to be treated different than you. Your policy sucks and even though my sexual orientation should have nothing to do with my XBL profile I think it should. You are preventing me from being who I am. You are discriminating against me. When as you said "we're asking for change in a policy that ruins the experience for a large number of online gamers." But hetrosexuals don't feel the same way so how are we equal in the first place? And how is that not asking for special treatment?

 

[squid5580]

The point I am trying to make here isn't right or wrong good or bad. The point is there is a difference between working towards helping people understand and forcing it on them. Having an open and honest discussion about an issue in the proper forum is helping said issue. By saying things like what you have said is forcing it. All you are doing is trying to cram your POV down another's throat and if they respond negatively to it then you cry foul and pull the discrimination card. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" isn't any better of a policy than "don't ask, don't tell". Not for the goal you are working towards.

 

[Alex_P]

Oh, ha, a discussion of "don't ask, don't tell"...

Well, if there's one thing that wastes money incredibly well in this country, it's the United States Military, that I'll admit. Frankly, however, I have no problem with this, the military has a policy, and that policy is to be followed. That it may cause some difficulty or make people unhappy is unfortunate, but that is policy.

In military terms:
"cause some difficulty" - jeopardize the mission
"make people unhappy" - damage morale

As for the translators being fired, in intelligence you want people who can be discreet. If they can't be discreet, then they are a liability. So, from a certain perspective, they were actually improving national security.

Ever had DoD clearance training? In addition to reminding you about the importance of discretion, they also remind you that the guy who's ridiculously close-lipped about his personal life to his long-time coworkers is much more likely to be a spy.

-- Alex

 

[Foolishman1776]

Well, in all honesty, I have begun to re-examine some beliefs, however, not all of them. I maintain that sexuality is a choice, and deserves no more consideration than a person's preferred flavour of ice cream. However, there are many choices that one makes that are, shall we say, controversial, and there is a point to protecting the right of free choice. However, I want to qualify this by saying that you have a right to make a choice, but so do other people. Choice is a complex issue, I'll need to think about it, for now, I've done all the damage I can do here. Been nice sparring with you.

 

[cobra_ky]

My question is how? How does this have any negative effect on homosexuals? Lets put aside everything else for just one second and give me a straight answer to this question. Cuz I don't understand. The way I see it we are equal. I don't need to put in my profile I am hetrosexual or anything that implies that. I am secure enough in my sexuality I don't see any reason too. You can't just say it is discrimination since they haven't said anything about 1 group or the other. It is a policy for all.

it's a little difficult for me to explain, since i'm not actually gay, but there's a couple ways. many homosexuals aren't secure in their sexuality because society pressures them not to be. communicating with other homosexuals, or even just knowing they're out there, can go a long way towards providing a sense of acceptance.

second, the most effective way to foster understanding is exposure to what you don't understand. personally, i didn't understand transgender issues at all until a couple weeks ago when a friend of mine came out. because of that experience i learned how misguided and ignorant i had been. i'm not saying being openly gay on XBL is going to suddenly change anyone's minds, but the more gay people you know the less likely you are to stereotype them.

And I can put forth a single defense you just don't like it. If you run around telling everyone when it just doesn't matter for the task at hand there are some who won't approve. And so you are just rocking the boat so to speak. Sure you can rock it all you want but the simple fact of the matter is you are accomplishing nothing by doing so.

i think you're being way too sensitive about this. i keep seeing phrases like "running around telling everyone" or "shouting into a megaphone". really this is much more akin to appearing in public with your partner, or wearing something with a purple triangle or a rainbow on it. the information's out there, but no one is forced or even expected to respond to it.

Do you think this is helping the "XBL Homophobes" gain any better understanding? Or do you think that this just crying out we ought to be treated different than you. Your policy sucks and even though my sexual orientation should have nothing to do with my XBL profile I think it should. You are preventing me from being who I am. You are discriminating against me. When as you said "we're asking for change in a policy that ruins the experience for a large number of online gamers." But hetrosexuals don't feel the same way so how are we equal in the first place? And how is that not asking for special treatment?

a few heterosexuals in this thread have said they couldn't enjoy xbox live because of all the racism and homophobia, so i disagree with you there. many heterosexuals (myself included) DO feel the same way.

let me try to explain it terms of another analogy: subtitled cutscenes in games. to most people they aren't important, but when games don't have them, deaf players are excluded from the game's story. although they're particularly important to the deaf, many other players (again, myself included) like having them on, since it makes it easier to understand what the characters are saying. essentially, subtitles are necessary for the deaf, but also improve the experience for all gamers. would you consider that special treatment for the deaf?

 

[cobra_ky]

stephen toulouse is now claiming that the policy WILL change, once they determine how best to to implement it:

http://kotaku.com/5317094/microsoft-gay-almost-always-used-as-a-pejorative-on-live

the video of the conference itself should be up sometime this week, then we can discuss the actual content of it.

 

[squid5580]

My question is how? How does this have any negative effect on homosexuals? Lets put aside everything else for just one second and give me a straight answer to this question. Cuz I don't understand. The way I see it we are equal. I don't need to put in my profile I am hetrosexual or anything that implies that. I am secure enough in my sexuality I don't see any reason too. You can't just say it is discrimination since they haven't said anything about 1 group or the other. It is a policy for all.

it's a little difficult for me to explain, since i'm not actually gay, but there's a couple ways. many homosexuals aren't secure in their sexuality because society pressures them not to be. communicating with other homosexuals, or even just knowing they're out there, can go a long way towards providing a sense of acceptance.

second, the most effective way to foster understanding is exposure to what you don't understand. personally, i didn't understand transgender issues at all until a couple weeks ago when a friend of mine came out. because of that experience i learned how misguided and ignorant i had been. i'm not saying being openly gay on XBL is going to suddenly change anyone's minds, but the more gay people you know the less likely you are to stereotype them.

And I can put forth a single defense you just don't like it. If you run around telling everyone when it just doesn't matter for the task at hand there are some who won't approve. And so you are just rocking the boat so to speak. Sure you can rock it all you want but the simple fact of the matter is you are accomplishing nothing by doing so.

i think you're being way too sensitive about this. i keep seeing phrases like "running around telling everyone" or "shouting into a megaphone". really this is much more akin to appearing in public with your partner, or wearing something with a purple triangle or a rainbow on it. the information's out there, but no one is forced or even expected to respond to it.

Do you think this is helping the "XBL Homophobes" gain any better understanding? Or do you think that this just crying out we ought to be treated different than you. Your policy sucks and even though my sexual orientation should have nothing to do with my XBL profile I think it should. You are preventing me from being who I am. You are discriminating against me. When as you said "we're asking for change in a policy that ruins the experience for a large number of online gamers." But hetrosexuals don't feel the same way so how are we equal in the first place? And how is that not asking for special treatment?

a few heterosexuals in this thread have said they couldn't enjoy xbox live because of all the racism and homophobia, so i disagree with you there. many heterosexuals (myself included) DO feel the same way.

let me try to explain it terms of another analogy: subtitled cutscenes in games. to most people they aren't important, but when games don't have them, deaf players are excluded from the game's story. although they're particularly important to the deaf, many other players (again, myself included) like having them on, since it makes it easier to understand what the characters are saying. essentially, subtitles are necessary for the deaf, but also improve the experience for all gamers. would you consider that special treatment for the deaf?

The one thing that hasn't been discussed yet though and this is where my fears are coming from is the consequences. It is nice to believe in the optimistic side of things. It is great to think that there will be sexual orientation in our profiles and everything will be fine. It won't be. There are going to be people who instead of using the homophobic words to attack instead of just as random phrases. Even if they institute a system like Alex suggested it wouldn't change much because there is ways of making another's life miserable without the name calling. Kicking from matches. Gay griefing and teamkilling.

Now to the bolded part. Unless I misunderstand you are taking that out of context. I don't think they are saying I can't enjoy XBL because of the code and conduct is homophobic or racist. The arguement is that there is alot of people who are racist and homophobic and express those feelings openly. Putting your sexual orientation in is going to aggravate the problem. Not going to make any more aware. Lets face it you would have to be living under a rock for your entire life to not know about the homosexual community. And the bigger problem is lets say I am the biggest homophobe on the planet and you are gay. I don't know you are gay and over time we develop a friendship. One day you tell me. Now this can go one of 2 ways. I can run as fast and as far as I can. And never look back. Or something could click and I could see the error of my ways. That homosexuals aren't any different than myself. And accept you for who you are not what you are. Something that couldn't have happened if the second we met you said I am gay.

 

[Shycte]

Good for them!

/leaves

 

[TheLefty]

Unbelievable. This makes me sick! Why are we catering to certain groups of people? Just because they complain, then we have to make "special" rules for them? I'm not just talking about queers, I'm talking about anyone: Religions, nationalities, races, etc. No special treatment, and no conferences to discuss how we should cater to the needs of these groups who think that they are some-how more special than the rest of us.

People don't want special treatment they want equal treatment. They have confesses to educate people in hope of getting equal treatment not special treatment. And if you include every minority there ever is or was there is no "rest of us". Also there are multiple ways to count a minority.

On topic though, I don't see how anyone could be homophobic. I'm not gay but at the same time I don't care if anyone is gay. How can you care so much about something that doesn't effect you. I believe that anyone can believe anything they want or do anything they want as long as it doesn't hurt or effect someone else.

 

[cobra_ky]

sorry to necro this, but the video of the panel is now up:

http://glaadblog.org/2009/07/28/video-glaads-panel-on-homophobia-virtual-communities/

it's pretty long, so i'll point out a few highlights.

part 3 addresses the issue of "flaunting" one's sexuality, which came up a lot in this thread. in part 9, stephen toulouse explains the relationship between muting and reporting players. they're intended to complement each other; muting provides immediate relief, while reporting is an effective long term resolution. the first half of part 12 describes the problems with the current reporting systems, and part 15 covers the tools game companies have in a lot more in depth. finally, in part 18 he talks about the disconnect between voice chat and profile enforcement policies and how he wants them to change. he also brings up difficulties and issues which i had never thought of.

there's a lot more in there, including how these issues affect the larger audience as a whole, and the portrayal of gay characters in games. i highly suggest anyone interested or concerned with these issues give it a listen; these guys know what they're talking about a lot more than any of us do.