EA on women in Battlefield V; "If you don't like it, don't buy it"

[Baffle]

Holy shit guys, we're going to need a smaller teacup to contain this storm!

They're going to piss and moan, then they're going to buy it anyway.

Ah ambassador, with these extra choices that we are in no way obliged to use, you are really spoiling us!

 

[Satinavian]

That is not a WWII game, it is at best a game with some WWII asthetics.

Just like every other spunkgargleweewee game set in WWII.

There are many WWII that aim for more, Of those that i actually played i would mention Panzer General, Aces over Europe, Silent Hunter, Great Naval Battles 2 : Guadalcanal or the more modern Hearts of Iron series.
Pretty much every single WWII game i know aims for more accuracy than this Battlefield stuff. But i admit that i wasn't paying much attention to WWII games in the last couple of years (or maybe decades).

Did I not specifically specify what Yahtzee calls sepunkgargleweewe ie the military shooter?
Also I forgot to mention that I think you got your Fronts mixed up. The WESTERN Front was where the Soviets fought, the EASTERN Front was where the the Brits, Canadians, and eventually the Americans fought.

I don't follow Yahtzee and was not aware that sepunkgargleweewe means shooter.

As for the fronts, that could be a matter of perspective, but i have never before encountered the way you use those terms

 

[Canadamus Prime]

That is not a WWII game, it is at best a game with some WWII asthetics.

Just like every other spunkgargleweewee game set in WWII.

There are many WWII that aim for more, Of those that i actually played i would mention Panzer General, Aces over Europe, Silent Hunter, Great Naval Battles 2 : Guadalcanal or the more modern Hearts of Iron series.
Pretty much every single WWII game i know aims for more accuracy than this Battlefield stuff. But i admit that i wasn't paying much attention to WWII games in the last couple of years (or maybe decades).

Did I not specifically specify what Yahtzee calls sepunkgargleweewe ie the military shooter?
Also I forgot to mention that I think you got your Fronts mixed up. The WESTERN Front was where the Soviets fought, the EASTERN Front was where the the Brits, Canadians, and eventually the Americans fought.

I don't follow Yahtzee and was not aware that sepunkgargleweewe means shooter.

As for the fronts, that could be a matter of perspective, but i have never before encountered the way you use those terms

Spunkgargleweewee specifically refers to military shooters, namely CoD, Battlefield, Medal of Honour etc.

Maybe I'm the one who's got it backwards. Yeah I probably am. Forget I said anything.

 

[Erttheking]

there were pretty much no women in WW2

99.999% of all the infantry in WW2 were men

You can't just pick one thing I said and ignore the rest, buddy. These ''Entire units'' is still nothing compared to how many men there were.

So let's be clear on this: The official number of women who served in the Red Army was 800,00. Add to that a few hundred thousands that were active as partisans and you've got at least a million Soviet women that went under arms during WW2.
Compare to the Waffen-SS, the guys that appear every-fucking-where in WW2 games, who amounted to 900,000 total throughout the war, of which less then 400,000 served in the Panzer and Panzer-Grenadier Divisions that were high profile (the remaining 500,000 were anti-partisan units and foreign volunteers that often served as second rate forces).

So to put the perspective in: There were more Soviet women who went under arms in the Red Army and Partisan forces then there were Waffen-SS soldiers on all fronts of World War 2. Yet no one would ever consider suggesting that the Waffen-SS be omitted from a game that aims to portray WW2, because they are 'iconic' and 'historical' and stuff. Yes, women weren't often seen in infantry forces (though some got that assignment in the Red Army, it was only the Naval Infantry that didn't accept women), but there was plenty enough of them that served in other frontline roles. So yeah, when people suggest that the Waffen-SS were bit-players and should be omitted on the same grounds that they argue that women were bit-players and should be omitted, then I'll take that argument seriously.

[link]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Russian_and_Soviet_military[/link]

''"Over 800,000 women served in the Soviet armed forces in World War II, mostly as medics and nurses, which is over 3 percent of total personnel;"

''in small numbers - as machine gunners, tank drivers.''

So not actual infantry, they were stationed medics and nurses and in very small numbers are machine gunners, tank drivers and snipers. Sorry, but women didn't play an even small part in the actual war but a very small part.

And even if Soviet had 800.000 female infantry it still wouldn't make sense to have women running around since they would only cover 3% of the entire Soviet army, much less so in western armies.

Congratulations on utterly missing the point she was making with the Waffen SS. Not a single word in your reply was actually dedicated to that. I find that telling.

It's irrelevant since there wasn't 1 million female combatants in Soviet during WW2. And like I said before even if there were it still doesn't justify having plenty of women in the western armies or even in the Soviet army.

How many female soldiers do you see in Saving Private Ryan? Band of Brothers? Oh, none? I guess they're super inaccurate films then when it comes to gender representation. Remember those WW2 vets that watched SPR and said it was the most realistic depiction of WW2? Remember when they asked where all the women were? No?

Also please tell me what multiplayer game let you play as Waffen SS? In what games do we see plenty of Waffen SS soldiers?

Wow you are really missing the point still. The point is that games depicting Waffen SS are unrealistic as are games with this much women, but people only complain about the latter. You would?ve noticed if you weren?t so busy pushing over straw. Or is one more acceptable than the other?

As for the SS in games Geth didn?t say anything about them being represented in multiplayer games so you?ll forgive me if I ignore that arbitrary qualifier. But here?s a list.

COD: 1, United Offense, 3, World at War, Black Ops, and WWII. Company of heroes (playable in multiplayer) Hearts of Iron IV (recruitable units) Sniper Elite, have I made my point or do I need more?

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

You can't just pick one thing I said and ignore the rest, buddy. These ''Entire units'' is still nothing compared to how many men there were.

You said none, I showed some.

So what is the acceptable ratio for a playable female in a war game? Give us a line here.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

How many female soldiers do you see in Saving Private Ryan? Band of Brothers? Oh, none? I guess they're super inaccurate films then when it comes to gender representation.

While you're putting back the goal posts, pull that strawman down. The neighbors are complaining.

 

[Elijin]

Anyone complaining that any mainstream triple A game is failing to maintain a standard of realism by allowing MP avatars to be both male and female needs to take a step back and look at their lives.


Those games have no merit to the phrase 'historically accurate'. They're made purely for entertainment. Gameplay and enjoyment trumps all factors. Any time you ever sit down and find yourself saying anything about representation within a videogame being a cop out, political move or anything other than an incidental non-event that improves someone elses experience without harming yours one iota, then you need to pull the stick out, so to speak.


There is no debate here. BF is, and always has been, entertainment and nonsense. Assuming we're not looking at an oddjob style character model, letting anyone pick a female character hurts no one. It's not an SJW conspiracy, its not virtue signalling, it's not cuck bs. It's letting Jane play as GI Jane, just like Joe has been playing as GI Joe for years. Any discussion past that probably means you're the figurative asshole who doesnt want an inch of allowance for others, though it cost you nothing.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

It's irrelevant since there wasn't 1 million female combatants in Soviet during WW2. And like I said before even if there were it still doesn't justify having plenty of women in the western armies or even in the Soviet army.

There wasn't 900,000 combatants in the Waffen-SS either. Once you subtract support personnel (logistics, staff officers etc.) and the anti-partisan units you are down to maybe 200,000 soldiers who were front line soldiers in Waffen-SS Panzer or Panzer-Grenadier units, which would be about the number of Soviet women who ended up on the front line. That number is also, incidentally, higher than the number of American men who saw combat as Paratroopers in Europe, as only 4 Airborne Divisions were deployed to Europe and they in total comprised slightly over 100,000 men.

My point here isn't that women were everywhere. My point is that the average Wehrmacht soldier was more likely to lay their sights on (or get sight laid on them by) a Soviet woman then they were to fight alongside a Waffen-SS soldier or fight against an American or British paratrooper. It is only the way historiography has turned out that has meant that the USSR made a concerted effort to bury the contributions of its' women to the war effort, whereas the US and UK praised their Paratroopers (being elite forces and all) and Waffen-SS has become an object of fascination for being the armed branch of the Nazi party. So today when we think of WW2 we think of Band of Brothers (which follows some 400 guys total out of a few million US soldiers in Europe), we think Operation Market Garden and SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend, because those have gained notoriety, despite being very small pieces of the total war.

And if we are to talk really absurd stuff, the latest BFV trailer showed British airborne with German assault rifles, a Tiger I in Norway (total number produced 1300, none ever deployed to Norway) and a Sturmtiger (19 built in 1944-1945), an assault gun so rare it could just as well be a unicorn. But these get a pass right, because they were on the front line somewhere else during the war and nominally made a war contribution. And if you are alright with a Sturmtiger in Norway in 1940 supporting guys with assault rifles made in 1945 while the British conduct a completely made up airborne operation as "decently realistic", then you really don't have a leg to stand on when you complain about women not being on the front lines, as there are scattered examples of OSS-operatives that were women and fought in a front line capacity during Operation Overlord and the breakout through France.

This wouldn't be so egregious if you (and all the guys like you) would just denounce Battlefield as unrealistic, period. Because it is. But instead you get hung up on women being in the game, while ignoring all the other major liberties that BFV is taking with historical accuracy. It paints a really weird picture.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Holy shit guys, we're going to need a smaller teacup to contain this storm!

They're going to piss and moan, then they're going to buy it anyway.

Ah ambassador, with these extra choices that we are in no way obliged to use, you are really spoiling us!

Look, cosmetic multiplayer options in a game where enemy units are basically a blur until one of you is dead is super duper important, okay?

You don't want your immersion ruined as you stand upright on the back of a galloping horse firing a machine gun.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Can do EA.

I didn't have a problem with women in gaming. What I had a problem with was the fact that from the very first trailer onward the game looked like a goddamn carnival. To the point where you can't tell who is on what team or who is what class just by looking at them. That's SUPER important in PvP game design, and something DICE themselves has said they took great care to pay attention to in previous Battlefield games.

I can't imagine the clusterfuck Hardcore players will endure with all this customization and no way to tell who is on what team. And class identification is super important to say, vehicle players, who need to know who the Assaults and Recons are to focus on them and not wind up focusing on Medics and Supports who aren't dangerous to them (most of the time).

I mean, I guess I do have a problem with the women in the game. Mostly because you spent a fucking hour hyping the game up as the most immersive and authentic Battlefield ever, then you showed us fucking Potty Mouth Bionic Tracer rip-off and Nazi Ninja Woman and Female Asian British Paratrooper.

Instead of you know, the French Resistance, Soviet Woman Brigades or Night Witches etc.

And then to top it off you let your devs go on Twitter and shoot their mouths off (while revealing how bad their parenting skills are) to insult fans of the series.

So that's an easy pass from me EA.

 

[Erttheking]

Can do EA.

I didn't have a problem with women in gaming. What I had a problem with was the fact that from the very first trailer onward the game looked like a goddamn carnival. To the point where you can't tell who is on what team or who is what class just by looking at them. That's SUPER important in PvP game design, and something DICE themselves has said they took great care to pay attention to in previous Battlefield games.

I can't imagine the clusterfuck Hardcore players will endure with all this customization and no way to tell who is on what team. And class identification is super important to say, vehicle players, who need to know who the Assaults and Recons are to focus on them and not wind up focusing on Medics and Supports who aren't dangerous to them (most of the time).

I mean, I guess I do have a problem with the women in the game. Mostly because you spent a fucking hour hyping the game up as the most immersive and authentic Battlefield ever, then you showed us fucking Potty Mouth Bionic Tracer rip-off and Nazi Ninja Woman and Female Asian British Paratrooper.

Instead of you know, the French Resistance, Soviet Woman Brigades or Night Witches etc.

And then to top it off you let your devs go on Twitter and shoot their mouths off (while revealing how bad their parenting skills are) to insult fans of the series.

So that's an easy pass from me EA.

I have to echo what Geth said earlier in the thread. It'd be one thing if you were decrying the series and the game as a whole for being unrealistic. Because everything about most WWII shooters is a joke when it comes to realism. Hell, that's why I didn't buy Battlefield 1, because it shoved realism in a trash can and kicked it off a cliff in order to make a WW I game that was basically a WW II game with more bi-planes and zeppelins, when I wanted a game that was more like Verdun. Slow paced, with less rapid fire weapons, and the brutal reality of trench warfare. But you seem really hung up on the women aspect.

 

[Samos205]

why are people making a big deal out of this?
If you don't want to play as a female, then just play as a male character or better yet, don't buy it? no-ones forcing you to do either.
And if people are going to say its "unrealistic" then why don't you complain about hiding behind a knee-high wall while your health regens. pretty sure that never happened in WW2.
maybe i'm just missing the point though, either way i won't be buying it, not because of females being playable, but because i don't care for battlefield

 

[Baffle]

Surely proper realism in a World War game would be sitting in a hole in the ground for four years getting trench foot and shitting in a bucket?

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Instead of you know, the French Resistance, Soviet Woman Brigades or Night Witches etc.

And then to top it off you let your devs go on Twitter and shoot their mouths off (while revealing how bad their parenting skills are) to insult fans of the series.

So that's an easy pass from me EA.

Now that criticism makes a lot more sense.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

And then to top it off you let your devs go on Twitter and shoot their mouths off (while revealing how bad their parenting skills are) to insult fans of the series.

Their parenting skills seem fine to me. As a parent I am quite certain that there are times when you need to just tell your children that they are in the wrong and need to adjust their behavior. Coddling your children when they are acting out and misbehaving is what erodes any boundaries you are trying to set.

 

[Paragon Fury]

And then to top it off you let your devs go on Twitter and shoot their mouths off (while revealing how bad their parenting skills are) to insult fans of the series.

Their parenting skills seem fine to me. As a parent I am quite certain that there are times when you need to just tell your children that they are in the wrong and need to adjust their behavior. Coddling your children when they are acting out and misbehaving is what erodes any boundaries you are trying to set.

I was referring more to their Tweets and responses where the devs explicitly say they made the game they way they did because they didn't want to explain to their young children why they can't play as women in Battlefield and boldly proclaimed their desire to be on the "right side of history".

Do note that in one case the dev's child in question is only two years old.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

"Gamers": Why don't SJWs just make their own games instead of trying to force devs to change theirs?

Dev: "So, I made the game this way for the reason"

"Gamers": No, not like that.

 

[Paragon Fury]

"Gamers": Why don't SJWs just make their own games instead of trying to force devs to change theirs?

Dev: "So, I made the game this way for the reason"

"Gamers": No, not like that.

They mean they want them to make their own, from-the-ground-up games, not hijack established franchises or force it onto established franchises; because then it leads to the SJWs having what they want at the expense of the older/classic fans losing what they enjoyed.

 

[Elijin]

"Gamers": Why don't SJWs just make their own games instead of trying to force devs to change theirs?

Dev: "So, I made the game this way for the reason"

"Gamers": No, not like that.

They mean they want them to make their own, from-the-ground-up games, not hijack established franchises or force it onto established franchises; because then it leads to the SJWs having what they want at the expense of the older/classic fans losing what they enjoyed.

So to be clear, you enjoyed not having female MP avatars?

 

[Paragon Fury]

"Gamers": Why don't SJWs just make their own games instead of trying to force devs to change theirs?

Dev: "So, I made the game this way for the reason"

"Gamers": No, not like that.

They mean they want them to make their own, from-the-ground-up games, not hijack established franchises or force it onto established franchises; because then it leads to the SJWs having what they want at the expense of the older/classic fans losing what they enjoyed.

So to be clear, you enjoyed not having female MP avatars?

In Battlefield, yes.

Specifically for PvP, because class identification is so important; getting your tank blown up because you can't tell the Engi/Assault from the Support at a glance or getting sniped because you can't tell if you can safely challenge that dude on the hill sucks ass.

That, and yes, I do prefer my historical games to at least be visually and aesthetically accurate, if not accurate in gameplay. I understand that in order to have good gameplay you might need to bend history a little, but there's bending history and Nazi Ninja Assassin Women and Potty Mouth Bionic Tracer.

But I suppose it would more accurate to say not that I'm against women but that I'm against customization in Battlefield. Battlefield is not a franchise that should have extensive customization - you shouldn't be able to be black, or asian, or female or anything other than what the faction and map specifically calls for. Every US Medic should look exactly the same, every German Recon exactly the same, every British Support etc.

I'm willing to compromise and say camos and minor uniform add-ons (IE: A patch) are fine.

And this way still allows for you to have diversity - the Allies could have Female Resistance fighters replace their Recon models on some French maps, or the Soviets have female models on certain maps etc.

But Battlefield is not about playing as you or an avatar of yourself. It never has been; you're just another standard, uniformed member of a military faction fighting another one.