Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)
- Thread starter Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)
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Weird how independents also lost trust in the media, huh?
Truth be told, I'm seeing arguments all over the place. Examples;I personally hate it. And I do it too much.
The problem with it is, we're not fighting to convince them. They are long gone. Facts don't matter. That is literally the catch phrase this party started.
But there are people who are not life long democrats, who aren't staunch republicans... There are independents. There are the uneducated about these matters. There are people not from this damn country that don't know the facts about the situation and might see someone lie about how Poor Innocent Donald Trump is being mistreated and lied about in the media and by the mean ole democrats.
Those people are the ones that I'm doing this for. The facts are there. Not mouth pieces. Hear it from the mouths of Republicans and Democrats so we don't get half truths.
Take Gorfias for instance. I often think favorably of him, and remove from politics we seem to have similar interests. So just by his personality alone, I'm more prone to take heed to what he has to say than some others. Hell, I blocked some others.
He often claimed that Obama said Trump would need a magic wand to reach a better economy. Not to paraphrase, I'll use his own words.
Myself, I didn't know the magic wand thing that Gorfias was talking about. But I looked up the economy and there was an uptick. If I stopped my research there, I would begin questioning Obama's BS and thinking I gave Trump a raw deal.
But then I do more research.
Like this
About That Trump Economy . . .
When you look at the data, it’s less impressive than it seemed.www.cato.org
And that the actual Magic Wand statement was about bringing back Manufacturing Jobs to America.
Yes, it gets tiring. Yes, nothing we're going to say is going to change some of these right-winged thinkers. I painfully know that.
But we've seen what four years of half-truths and good sounding but fundamentally false sound clips can do. Hell. Slogans. Leaving words out in the air gives them time to grow into something uncontrollable. We didn't take Trump seriously. He was obviously a laughable choice, just blatantly lying, saying harmful things, and not looking presidential in the slightest. So we sat back and prepared for a Clinton White House.
We will not make that mistake again.
But I would describe your post as putting us back into the "The Trump economy is actually bad, so stop believing your lying perceptions". And if Trump wins a 2nd term in the courts, and COVID is cured, and the economy gets good again, I anticipate we'll go back to the, "yes the economy is good, but Trump didn't do that" argument.
I am not writing that you are wrong. I'm writing I get it in those 2 flavors, back and forth.
My perception was that we were doing great. I kept reading of record employment and rising wages for the first time in a generation stuff and the "economy isn't really good" argument seemed hollow to me.
Then there is the, "he just continued Obama's economic trajectory" which is why I wrote previously, growth after a market crash should not be that hard. There's plenty of room to go from there. But if the economy is already doing OK, which it was by 2016? Much harder.
I do fault Trump on his budget deficits which are argued to be the sole cause of the good economy, but we really need a balanced budget amendment to provide incentive to not have these deficits.
It's worst than a wish list. It's a "Been there, done that"
Does anyone else remember the New Deal For Black Americans? Trump's 2016 promise to Black America
Trump Proposes "New Deal For Black America" In Charlotte
Donald Trump unveiled his "New Deal For Black America" in a speech Wednesday in Charlotte, NC, promising to provide "safe communities, great education and high-paying jobs." He said "too many African-Americans have been left behind," and that America is "caught in a time warp," making the...
Broken Down, Three Principles were Promised.
And I'm so glad I found this. It feels like I'm the only person who remembered that Trump promised to declare disaster designations in Black Communities to revitalize them. Now, perhaps my Google-Fu is weak, but I've tried every combination of "Trump" "Disaster Designations" "Black/Minority communities" I can think of. The only time I ever get a hit of it is referencing this speech. Trump has been voted out. Not a peep of Disaster Designations.
Trump did put more police on the streets. But then his Boy Jeff Sessions removed any restraints on the Police and we've seen how well that's gone for us.
Great education? Betsy DeVos was the secretary of Education.
This Betsy DeVos. The one who diverted13.2 Billion from Public Schools, which overwhelmingly has minority students in their charter.
But yay, they gave 1.4 Billion to HBCUs! Wonderful! The elementary kids now will have a warm feeling in their heart that Black Colleges are getting a boost, and the k-12 schools they are in now will not have the ability to properly educate them to get them into those HBCUs. Feel Good all around!
Hell, I didn't even need to type any of this. They had critiques for year one of Trump's presidency.
Spoiler alert. It did not get better from there
Fact check: Trump’s policies for Black Americans
Trump says he’s the “best president” for African Americans. Is that really true?
www.politico.com
But no, I'm sure Trump really got it with that Platinum Plan.
It's not particularly strange; the media in the US is godawful.
It's tough to see exactly, because individual years aren't delineated on that graph, but the line for Independents seems to run pretty much parallel with the line for Democrats for most of the last decade-or-so (though of course with a lower starting point). What Independents don't experience is a rapid drop in 2016, when the conspiracy-theorist-in-chief took up the fight.
Come on, Gorfias, I'm vouching for you here.
I literally said there was an uptick in the economy. Really, man... point to where I said anything wrong about the Trump economy. Or where I passed judgement on it other than there being an uptick... which is a good thing.
Continuations aren't. Bad. Things. Hell, we're talking on a continuation of a forum right now!
I shouldn't just credit my Flight Instructor for making me a commercial pilot. It took my k-12 teachers to teach me how to read, how to follow instruction, how to critically think, and how to study and research on my own. It's not a bad thing to build on success. That's literally how civilizations are Formed. But it's a bad thing to pretend you made something completely out of thin air.
And even THAT isn't bashing Trump's economy. It's saying that whatever he built, he built on a foundation. That isn't false, that's not a knock, it's the truth. He didn't invent America, the Economy, the concept of money and trade. Nor did he inherent a blank slate. There's no malice in saying that, and there's no betrayal in admitting that he actually got a decent economy to work with.
You did note the uptick, but also posted a link from CATO I took to mean that the economy just isn't that good.
My issue with those that say Trump just continued a trajectory is they make that sound like it was no achievement. Especially, in that I credit Obama from taking us from the 2008 crash to an economy that was doing OK in 2016, I think to gain even more growth after we're already doing well? I think that is difficult and an achievement.
And another example on all of the nuttiness out there. Check this about Trump claiming to bring down Insulin prices by executive order:
Just, it's all over the place. Very difficult to know what to believe.
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're misinformed."
Correct, not a single thing. Piece by piece:
His father's company got dragged to court for allegedly discriminating against black renters shortly after Donald Trump became management, but the damning allegations came from Brooklyn in the period where Donald was in charge of Manhattan while Fred managed Brooklyn and Queens. The suit was settled with the enaction of safeguards to prevent even the appearance of discrimination. This accusation is literally blaming Donald Trump for the sins of his father.
If they wanted to say something true, they could have said "his family's real estate company was taken to court for discrimination", and I'd have no complaint, but for some reason the lie is necessary apparently.
The birther movement isn't "a black president simply couldn't have been born in America". It was doubt about that specific president (who does have personal history in other countries) being born in America. It was dumb. Trump made himself de facto leader of it. That's perfectly valid criticism, and could even be reasonably held up as potentially evidence of Trump being racist as is. But no, every case must be overstated, therefore apparently Trump believes no black people are born in America? Like, it's obviously bad enough as is, why twist it other than to piss people off?
He said Mexico was sending rapists. Like, that's dumb on multiple levels. Mexico isn't sending border crossers like it's a national decision, and the people aren't necessarily Mexican in the first place. I don't know there's any specific propensity for rape. Like, there's lots of fair criticism. Mountains of it. But a statement specifically about illegal immigration that says they aren't "sending their best" is not in any way a statement about Mexicans in general. The "most" part of the above claim would be a stretch of an interpretation even just applied to those jumping the border, but it wasn't a statement about "Mexicans" as a whole. Why do that? Why must every statement be exaggerated? Why is criticizing the truth insufficient?
There was never a ban on Muslims. There was a restrictions on travel from specific nations. It was a stupid measure that likely helped nobody and hurt international relations. But it wasn't a Muslim ban. Do you get it? Every single claim is made to sound worse than reality. And like, that's not convincing anyone extra. To acknowledge another user:
Then stop freaking spreading half-truths and false sound clips! For God's sake! Donald Trump's political power relies entirely on people lying about him. He got elected by picking a fight with the press, and people's resentment for the press drove them to vote for the guy who pissed them off the most. Trump voters saw the lies about him for what they were, saw the blatant attempts by the media to determine the course of the country through deceit, and psychological reactance kicked in and compelled them to vote for Trump. Now he's lost the election, and still the lies continue, as though the real desire is to push more people to support him anyway. Why do you all want people to support Trump so badly?
If you stop lying about Donald Trump, he has no political power.
Out of a selection apparently 500 strong they found a few doubles and one triple? That’s... absurdly mathematically possible that’s honestly not weird.Trump supporters are still digging for evidence of fraud
Trump supporters are still digging for evidence of fraud
Bill Maher has an okay editorial about the cult, and the Great Disappointment and how losing is evidence they won and this persecution complex cultists have as a way to justify their warped world view. That the more facts and evidence you show them they're wrong, the more they believe its a conspiracy against them.
I mean we still have people who deny the Holocaust and the moon landing, despite people who were actually there telling their stories. They'll be looking for evidence in anything, using numerology and necromancy to prove Biden won using spooky numbers and dead people. Because actually accepting they're wrong is mentally beyond them.
It certainly doesn't help that lawyers are standing up at press conferences and saying that they have evidence and are bringing it in front of judges.
Also:
Should I make my own topic and just keep posting "election fraud" "news"?
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To place it in wider context, attempts at justice system reform had been under way for years - a very similar bill was attempted in 2015 and shot down in the Senate for some stupid political wrangle. Trump did not go into the 2016 election promising it, and also was pretty resistant to it at first: Congress already had a plan being tossed around and it was only after plentiful lobbying efforts that he finally threw his weight behind it.Well, part of that plan is the "First Step act" which was signed into law two years ago. Say what you want about promises, but this is already done:
BOP: First Step Act Overview
www.bop.gov
So whilst Trump deserves credit for getting it done, at the same time it wasn't his initiative or his creation, and I don't have the remotest faith he did that because of any belief in making things better for black people.
Lots of people’s only mailing address is going to be a PO box or an apartment upstairs from a shop in a commercially zoned area, none of that is conclusive
I don't think that's what he's saying. Having a PO box is one thing. Having a mailing address BE a post office is another.
And I think someone, anyone really, would be able to distinguish between the address of a legal residence above a ground-floor commercial business and the address of the commercial business itself. In fact, he said "non-residential, purely commercial addresses". If an address is an apartment upstairs from a shop, it's not a "purely commercial address".
You're doing the mental gymnastics and denial that people from the 'trump cult" are accused of doing.
I would not be surprised if that’s how PO Boxes work in some older cities like, y’know, ones in Georgia.
Yeah he’s dumb this sounds likely
No, I’m doing actual normal skepticism as opposed to the kind of malarkey you do.
Do you have any evidence to suggest that's how things work there, or anywhere for that matter? I've never heard of it, but I'm not some sort of mail expert.
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