Of course, it can't be the sexism in the industry and in gaming as a whole which discourages women from getting involved.
*sigh*
*sigh*
Electronic Arts VP Says Sexism Complaints Are "Misguided"
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
I basically agree with this, men and women are very much alike. Their chemical make up is different but 90% of men are different to others biologically. EVERYBODY is similar in that they are all COMPLETELY different and yes I know that sounds like some after school special, which makes it all the weirder that so many people forget this. The games industry is growing out of old habits, they just die hard.BreakfastMan said:
Now I think im gonna leave to and allow the admins to go about their necessary/gruesome buisness...
Sounds like the gaming industry is in need of "binders full of women", eh?* 
That makes job distribution between genders a grey area, which in turn makes the debate a lot more complicated. So yes, in other words, it is that hard to understand. After all, if there were a clear-cut answer to the debate no-one would be having it. But I don't think being condescending towards either side exactly helps move things along.
*Figured I might as well use it before no one gets that joke anymore.
Actually that's the conflict model of sociology with regards gender. It's in direct opposition to structural functionalism, which states that it's not necessarily a bad thing that men and women perform different roles in society. It's still hotly debated which of the two theoretical backgrounds is correct, because both field and experimental observations show evidence for either of them.BreakfastMan said:
That makes job distribution between genders a grey area, which in turn makes the debate a lot more complicated. So yes, in other words, it is that hard to understand. After all, if there were a clear-cut answer to the debate no-one would be having it. But I don't think being condescending towards either side exactly helps move things along.
*Figured I might as well use it before no one gets that joke anymore.
I agree with her mostly though I don't think it's just games that have a lack of women.
When I was at college studying IT we only had 2 female students in my class of 20, similar statistics for all the other classes attending college at the time. I'm working in a software company now and the number has shrunk, now there are only two women in a team of 30+ software developers. (I also hear my job (IT Technician) had several applicants: All Male)
I think the problem is that IT has a tendency to be viewed as a 'guy thing', just look at any IT related stereotype, you're near enough guaranteed to have a fat nerdy bloke sat amidst a pile of computer bits and I think subconsciously women become averse to the job for that reason, same way men tend to not go into nursing.
In Summary: It isn't some underlying sexism within IT, the problem is society perceives IT as a nerdy male job hence women are less inclined to choose that career path.
When I was at college studying IT we only had 2 female students in my class of 20, similar statistics for all the other classes attending college at the time. I'm working in a software company now and the number has shrunk, now there are only two women in a team of 30+ software developers. (I also hear my job (IT Technician) had several applicants: All Male)
I think the problem is that IT has a tendency to be viewed as a 'guy thing', just look at any IT related stereotype, you're near enough guaranteed to have a fat nerdy bloke sat amidst a pile of computer bits and I think subconsciously women become averse to the job for that reason, same way men tend to not go into nursing.
In Summary: It isn't some underlying sexism within IT, the problem is society perceives IT as a nerdy male job hence women are less inclined to choose that career path.
I certainly agree that western cultures specifically tend/trend towards pushing life pursuits onto an individual in a generally sexist way. Is that even debatable anymore?BreakfastMan said:
Now where I would attempt to make a case is that one would have to demonstrate that given all the limitations and biasing "removed" from lets say, twins (one male one female) that all things considered equal, that indeed a man or a woman show no strong tendencies towards particular fields or areas of personal interest, self development, or employment.
Now I think one would have some ground from which to make a case. Simply saying "this is bad and needs to change" really doesn't do that. I do not find it particularly hard to understand.
Now, as a parent of a boy and girl, and acutely aware of this ongoing discussion I will freely admit, that it is not as "cut and dry" as it is often made to appear in ridiculously simplified terms. Though as with any change within a societies progression simply encouraging people on a case by case basis to engage the activities in which they find contentment is for my money, the way to go. If that means playing with dolls that is what it is... but not a few feet away is a small assortment of dart guns and my daughter is a pretty good shot. Nor do I care when my son plays "house". Why should I be concerned with that? I play house all the time, I am no stranger to a dirty dish.
That all said, at present, I am not obliged to attempt to make a case that boys and girls are not somewhat indeterminately biased by nature towards particular fields of interest. Heck my wife likes competition grade R/C rock crawlers, and painting her nails... so what? Now her passion has been the medical industry and ultimately I think she will want to create a small private school and pursue the roll of an educator. Awesome for her.
If we, as a society, are at the point where people are being denied the opportunity to make reasonable rational choices for themselves, sure... it is an issue in the pursuit of a civilized society. Thing is one would have to show, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, that denial of opportunity is happening, and by happening I mean happening more than a tiny percentage when compared to the 320~340 million people in let's say, the US.
My point is that the opportunity is there. Yes, likely in some fields it may be more difficult to work as a professional engineer as a woman for lack of gender peer, or for a man to become a nurse without criticism, but the opportunity to pursue it is there; for the most part.
It's not a perfect world, but in all fairness, it is pretty darn good. As it has been my experience most of these highly technical fields "do" require (although do not advertise) a certain "lifetime" of interest to really be any good at the field anyways.
With technology becoming more accessible and not the domain of the social outcast male, I honestly think we will see more woman pursuing "hard" development. Hard is hard though, and again... (strums a harp) good developers, highly professional people no matter what the field are almost always people who have been at it in one way or another for many many years.
One sort of has to give a damn about the material, beyond it's social ramifications. We may be able to teach everything there is to know on a subject, but we cannot teach "caring" about the subject in a meaningful way. I just try to cultivate the genius when I see it... cause I know at the end of the day, one cannot "wish" it to be, nor "wish" that a qualified applicant with a good idea is going to pop through the door. In fact, the odds are against it.
EA looks to be saying they have jobs that need to be filled. That is opportunity. Just take it! Why is that so hard?
Gee, people see society as a societal question... Really now?Tenmar said:
But you're right of course. Society can indeed be seen an evolutionary tendency whereby we, as a species, prolong our existence. Whether or not you see it that way, however, hinges on various philosophical questions including: "Where does morality come from?" "Is the universe dualistic in nature?" and "What is consciousness and do other people have it?"
While I agree that in a scientific sense it is easier to identify societies as being driven by biology, a person's own ideological background can influence their preconceptions about the matter.
I agree with that completely. I have two flatmates who both do games design; one guy, one girl. To say that their interests and ways of thinking are similar is understating it. Just because one of them has two X chromosomes, it doesn't mean she's going to have a completely different mindset than the one with an X and a Y. Case in point, they're on the exact same course.PunkRex said:
Though I do know there's many less girls on the course than there are guys. It's unfortunate really but I don't think that's really going to go away until the stigma that video games are a guy's thing goes away.
And now I cast Flame Shield and put up my umbrella for the oncoming shit storm.
I wish more people would be brave enough to discuss the plight of the male nurse, men who enter a female-dominated sector of the workforce and experience horrible sexism like... tending to make more money than their female counterparts... being denigrated by some for doing a job that is thought to be "beneath" men... raising the prestige of the job in the eyes of others by their mere presence...Crono1973 said:
God, it must be so difficult.
It's not about forcing women into careers they don't want. Rather, the focus should be on removing societal biases discouraging girls from being interested in those fields in the hopes of entering them when they become women.chadachada123 said:
Granted, I'm mostly on the "nurture" side of "nature vs nurture." I think the main reason we don't see more women in technical fields is because women are discouraged from being into them as girls, so many who'd otherwise love those fields never develop the skills or passion for them when growing up. The people who argue we *need* more women in those sectors *now* are silly and reductionist. Really, we should be examining and correcting biases in society so that we have more female college grads entering those sectors twenty years down the road.
As for why we should want more women in the game industry besides empowerment... I'm in the "games as young art form" camp. I'd like to see more equal representation of women (and people of color and LGBT individuals) because gaming is an expressive medium and having a more diverse crowd telling stories tends to mean those stories will be more diverse too.
Why are women "necessary"? I'm not saying I don't want women to work in the industry because I don't really care either way, but implying there are jobs in the industry that require women is self indulgent if you ask me.
As for the rest of the article, she's getting a good point across here. Women are very welcome to work in the industry as far as most people are concerned. Of course there will be a few jerks but there always is.
As for the rest of the article, she's getting a good point across here. Women are very welcome to work in the industry as far as most people are concerned. Of course there will be a few jerks but there always is.
Err... Excuse me?Andy Chalk said:
I guess you're going to have to put me down as someone else who claims that sexism isn't "largely responsible". In the UK, gender discrimination by employers is taken very, very, VERY seriously, to the point that you are actually more likely to get hired in a male-dominated industry as woman than you are as a man! After all, if both candidates have the same qualifications, why not offer the job to the candidate that will make your company look more "inclusive". It doesn't help that big companies have been hit hard by lawsuits claiming gender discrimination over hiring or firing (something that is often very difficult to prove either way).
I work as a developer for a software company specialising in text messaging systems. We have been madly hiring new developers since I joined the company (over a year ago now). In that time, I've seen dozens and dozens of hopefuls come in for interview. Only one of them has been a woman. Out of interest, I asked the head of recruitment about it. He said that female candidates actually have a really good record of getting past the CV-screening stage (apparently girls write better CVs than guys) but that since very few apply in the first place, he has very few to offer up for interview.
At the moment, I am one of only three women in a technical department of about a hundred. So come on, girls. Programming is fun! Really!
I'm in complete agreement (though I'm undecided about the nature vs nurture, and think that for something as complex as taste and job preference, will always be a bit ambiguous, as far as how often women would like a particular nurturing job compared to men goes). I just want to make sure that we keep this in mind as we go forward in reducing societal requirements; that, all other things being equal, it could still be very possible that a job field ends up 75% of one gender, both through chance or through brain chemistry, and that this is perfectly acceptable. So long as there are no barriers to entry, physical and mental requirements notwithstanding.bananafishtoday said:
Regarding LGBT representation: Being (kind of) bisexual, it's funny that nearly every single representation of bisexuals, both in film, television, and video games, is that they either: haven't "picked a side yet" or are fucking SERIAL KILLING PSYCHOPATHS. This is not an exaggeration, either. Do I mind? I don't really mind this trope being used, but I do mind that so much of society sees sexuality as black-and-white, despite the vast majority of humanity over time being at least some degree in between, not unlike dolphins or bonobos.
That said, I'm also of the opinion that, in the majority of games (shooters especially), the sexuality of a character is irrelevant, and should, in general, be a passing comment and not something done for show, be it straight OR gay or in between. When it's mentioned, the response should, for games that aren't story-driven like Mass Effect, be "huh, cool." What I mean is, if, I don't know, Luigi is gay (or something along those lines), the characters within the universe shouldn't give a shit, and its mention should be casual, since it is irrelevant to the story. That way, all sides win, both in representation but also not appearing as if the inclusion is "token."
It's definitely a bit of both.Andy Chalk said:
For one, there's a sort of "gender inertia" in software-related fields that must be broken through. We've created a culture that just seems to accept, without having to say it, "this is a boy thing." That's a remnant of past sexism that still needs upended.
And, on the other hand, when people sit around and tell one another how rigged the game is, other people overhear and assume those people know what they're talking about. So they just scratch that one off the list. "I keep hearing women say how incredibly sexist that field is. No point bothering if they've already tried."
I'm reminded of the story of the baby elephant held in place by a tiny rope around its ankle. It learns that it can't break the rope, and resigns itself to the rope's power. Even when the baby becomes an adult, the elephant still believes in the absolute power of that tiny rope around its ankle, and it doesn't even bother trying to escape... and so stays a captive.
Yes, there was definitely a sort of "captivity" in the past. And no, people aren't lining up at the gates to "free the elephant." But there's also a certain amount of learned acquiescence that can be more easily undone -- we can change ourselves faster than we can change others.
Now isn't that a tad bit contradictory? To help push women out of their niches that were formed around female stereotypes we will use these same stereotypes in games to move them over to this niche and mold it back around them. Why is it that a girl cannot enjoy Final Fantasy even though it isn't directed specifically at them? Most actually good games aren't directed at any gender demographic and simply try to make a good game. While some games might be sexist towards women, it's a smaller amount than most people let on, and like any other creative medium, there really isn't any means of stopping it. If someone is wanting to voice their bigotry through games and have the time, they will, as many amature film makers and writers and musicians have done and still do. The best way to see it leave is to ignore it instead of feeding it. If we want to abandon the sexism, then a girl should be able to enjoy most any game without it being directed directly at them. I didn't start playing video games because Spyro and Crash Bandicoot made me feel more manly, I started playing because I was having fun. If video games are not fun for most girls, then there isn't much you can do about it unless you force them into playing games, which sounds counterproductive.ShirowShirow said:
Sexism in gaming and the industry is a bigger topic than it actually exists in of itself. The community, however, is another matter entirely. That's where the majority of the descrimination lies, though it isn't specifically against women. The only groups that won't be targeted for the most part are the straight males, but they'll be targeted for other reasons besides their sexuality and gender. Hell, they'll still be called a ****** simply because the community is full of assholes. It has its nice people, don't get me wrong, but like any other community, it has its rather vocal asshats. That's where the change needs to be made.
That's not at all what I meant. I meant to argue that everyone's choices, men's and women's, are influenced to some degree by societal pressures. It's not about placing blame on one gender or another, and of course other factors come into play as well. This is actually related to one of the oldest debates in psychology, "nature vs. nurture". They are both factors in how we develop as individuals, but no one has yet to agree on which is more powerful. I worded it a bit more strongly that perhaps I should have, thank you for bringing light to that.Crono1973 said:
I agree that society influences everyone but I don't think it's fair that it only counts when it affects women negatively. I really wasn't talking to you specifically with that last sentence from my first post, it was more a general criticism to how these conversations go.Varitel said:
I think people need to start thinking more equal minded (like you are) instead of just saying man = oppressor, woman = victim.
I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.Darken12 said:
Also... am I the only one who finds Mr. Chalk to be a poor journalist? I mean he writes well and it's not like he's got uninformed opinions, but the guy doesn't seem to know/care a damn thing about the way journalism is suppose to work. Nearly all his articles are just leading towards conclusions and not really the most informative. I understand your suppose to be selling a product of sorts but just tell the story and leave out the editorializing. We aren't here for your opinions on the matter Mr. Chalk.
I meant sexism in excess of the norm. One would think that with the treatment of women in videogames and the whole Sarkeesian disaster, that the industry would be similar (I mean, look at the Dead Island: Riptide severed bust. I wonder if some of the developers were women, and whether they thought that might be in poor taste).th3dark3rsh33p said: