Electronic Arts VP Says Sexism Complaints Are "Misguided"

[Ickorus]

I agree with her mostly though I don't think it's just games that have a lack of women.

When I was at college studying IT we only had 2 female students in my class of 20, similar statistics for all the other classes attending college at the time. I'm working in a software company now and the number has shrunk, now there are only two women in a team of 30+ software developers. (I also hear my job (IT Technician) had several applicants: All Male)

I think the problem is that IT has a tendency to be viewed as a 'guy thing', just look at any IT related stereotype, you're near enough guaranteed to have a fat nerdy bloke sat amidst a pile of computer bits and I think subconsciously women become averse to the job for that reason, same way men tend to not go into nursing.

In Summary: It isn't some underlying sexism within IT, the problem is society perceives IT as a nerdy male job hence women are less inclined to choose that career path.

 

[mfeff]

Why do so many people ignore the societal elements of sexism? Seriously, why? Is that something that just goes straight over everyone's head? Society and gender roles push women towards more "caring" and "service" careers (like nursing, teaching, and waiting) while it pushes men towards more "technical" and "production" careers (like accounting, construction, and engineering). This is bad and needs to change. Is that so hard to understand? :\

I certainly agree that western cultures specifically tend/trend towards pushing life pursuits onto an individual in a generally sexist way. Is that even debatable anymore?

Now where I would attempt to make a case is that one would have to demonstrate that given all the limitations and biasing "removed" from lets say, twins (one male one female) that all things considered equal, that indeed a man or a woman show no strong tendencies towards particular fields or areas of personal interest, self development, or employment.

Now I think one would have some ground from which to make a case. Simply saying "this is bad and needs to change" really doesn't do that. I do not find it particularly hard to understand.

Now, as a parent of a boy and girl, and acutely aware of this ongoing discussion I will freely admit, that it is not as "cut and dry" as it is often made to appear in ridiculously simplified terms. Though as with any change within a societies progression simply encouraging people on a case by case basis to engage the activities in which they find contentment is for my money, the way to go. If that means playing with dolls that is what it is... but not a few feet away is a small assortment of dart guns and my daughter is a pretty good shot. Nor do I care when my son plays "house". Why should I be concerned with that? I play house all the time, I am no stranger to a dirty dish.

That all said, at present, I am not obliged to attempt to make a case that boys and girls are not somewhat indeterminately biased by nature towards particular fields of interest. Heck my wife likes competition grade R/C rock crawlers, and painting her nails... so what? Now her passion has been the medical industry and ultimately I think she will want to create a small private school and pursue the roll of an educator. Awesome for her.

If we, as a society, are at the point where people are being denied the opportunity to make reasonable rational choices for themselves, sure... it is an issue in the pursuit of a civilized society. Thing is one would have to show, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, that denial of opportunity is happening, and by happening I mean happening more than a tiny percentage when compared to the 320~340 million people in let's say, the US.

My point is that the opportunity is there. Yes, likely in some fields it may be more difficult to work as a professional engineer as a woman for lack of gender peer, or for a man to become a nurse without criticism, but the opportunity to pursue it is there; for the most part.

It's not a perfect world, but in all fairness, it is pretty darn good. As it has been my experience most of these highly technical fields "do" require (although do not advertise) a certain "lifetime" of interest to really be any good at the field anyways.

With technology becoming more accessible and not the domain of the social outcast male, I honestly think we will see more woman pursuing "hard" development. Hard is hard though, and again... (strums a harp) good developers, highly professional people no matter what the field are almost always people who have been at it in one way or another for many many years.

One sort of has to give a damn about the material, beyond it's social ramifications. We may be able to teach everything there is to know on a subject, but we cannot teach "caring" about the subject in a meaningful way. I just try to cultivate the genius when I see it... cause I know at the end of the day, one cannot "wish" it to be, nor "wish" that a qualified applicant with a good idea is going to pop through the door. In fact, the odds are against it.

EA looks to be saying they have jobs that need to be filled. That is opportunity. Just take it! Why is that so hard?

 

[Farther than stars]

Either that or people would more because we look at society more think of this as a societal question rather than a biological question or evolutionary question.

Gee, people see society as a societal question... Really now?
But you're right of course. Society can indeed be seen an evolutionary tendency whereby we, as a species, prolong our existence. Whether or not you see it that way, however, hinges on various philosophical questions including: "Where does morality come from?" "Is the universe dualistic in nature?" and "What is consciousness and do other people have it?"
While I agree that in a scientific sense it is easier to identify societies as being driven by biology, a person's own ideological background can influence their preconceptions about the matter.

 

[Stalydan]

Not by much, really. Beyond predispositions towards certain body-types, men and women have little to no differences, psychologically.

And with that, I take my leave of this thread. I have seen enough of these type of threads to know how they go. Pretty soon Phasmal, Vault101, or evilthecat will show up, then Therumancer, mathew_lane, or someone similar will make an appearance, and the entire thread will descend into flames. So, excuse if I want to get out now when the getting is good, now that I have said my piece.

I basically agree with this, men and women are very much alike. Their chemical make up is different but 90% of men are different to others biologically. EVERYBODY is similar in that they are all COMPLETELY different and yes I know that sounds like some after school special, which makes it all the weirder that so many people forget this. The games industry is growing out of old habits, they just die hard.

Now I think im gonna leave to and allow the admins to go about their necessary/gruesome buisness...

I agree with that completely. I have two flatmates who both do games design; one guy, one girl. To say that their interests and ways of thinking are similar is understating it. Just because one of them has two X chromosomes, it doesn't mean she's going to have a completely different mindset than the one with an X and a Y. Case in point, they're on the exact same course.

Though I do know there's many less girls on the course than there are guys. It's unfortunate really but I don't think that's really going to go away until the stigma that video games are a guy's thing goes away.

And now I cast Flame Shield and put up my umbrella for the oncoming shit storm.

 

[bananafishtoday]

It's easy to understand but most people think that sexism only applies to women and I object to those people. No one screams sexism when women dominate teaching or nursing because that wouldn't be PC.

I wish more people would be brave enough to discuss the plight of the male nurse, men who enter a female-dominated sector of the workforce and experience horrible sexism like... tending to make more money than their female counterparts... being denigrated by some for doing a job that is thought to be "beneath" men... raising the prestige of the job in the eyes of others by their mere presence...

God, it must be so difficult.

Why do so many people ignore the societal elements of sexism? Seriously, why? Is that something that just goes straight over everyone's head? Society and gender roles push women towards more "caring" and "service" careers (like nursing, teaching, and waiting) while it pushes men towards more "technical" and "production" careers (like accounting, construction, and engineering). This is bad and needs to change. Is that so hard to understand? :\

But why does it need to change? Forcing women into careers they just don't want, and men into the same, would be counterproductive, and, if anything, would increase sexism/resentment towards society.

Just let people go into whatever field they want to (and are good at), regardless of gender. As noted, this is already happening in many fields on the employer end. And if women in general still don't like engineering, then *why should it matter*? There will obviously end up being differences in demographics between careers, no matter how much society just doesn't care, because of differences in chemistry/physiology and just-plain-chance.

Side note: Many people (outside the industry) still think that the comic book industry is sexist, that conditions are nastier for women writers/artists, but at least several females actually in the industry have noted that it just isn't the case; that, while women are rare in the industry, they are not treated differently there. I can provide a source if requested, but it will take some digging. I imagine there's similar things at work for the video game industry.

It's not about forcing women into careers they don't want. Rather, the focus should be on removing societal biases discouraging girls from being interested in those fields in the hopes of entering them when they become women.

Granted, I'm mostly on the "nurture" side of "nature vs nurture." I think the main reason we don't see more women in technical fields is because women are discouraged from being into them as girls, so many who'd otherwise love those fields never develop the skills or passion for them when growing up. The people who argue we *need* more women in those sectors *now* are silly and reductionist. Really, we should be examining and correcting biases in society so that we have more female college grads entering those sectors twenty years down the road.

As for why we should want more women in the game industry besides empowerment... I'm in the "games as young art form" camp. I'd like to see more equal representation of women (and people of color and LGBT individuals) because gaming is an expressive medium and having a more diverse crowd telling stories tends to mean those stories will be more diverse too.

 

[Epona]

It's easy to understand but most people think that sexism only applies to women and I object to those people. No one screams sexism when women dominate teaching or nursing because that wouldn't be PC.

I wish more people would be brave enough to discuss the plight of the male nurse, men who enter a female-dominated sector of the workforce and experience horrible sexism like... tending to make more money than their female counterparts... being denigrated by some for doing a job that is thought to be "beneath" men... raising the prestige of the job in the eyes of others by their mere presence...

God, it must be so difficult.

This is exactly what I mean, when it's sexism against men, it's ignored or belittled. Well, if you can't think more equally minded then I don't want to talk to you.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Why are women "necessary"? I'm not saying I don't want women to work in the industry because I don't really care either way, but implying there are jobs in the industry that require women is self indulgent if you ask me.

As for the rest of the article, she's getting a good point across here. Women are very welcome to work in the industry as far as most people are concerned. Of course there will be a few jerks but there always is.

 

[MetalMagpie]

Nobody will argue that there are far fewer women working in the videogame industry than men, and very few would claim that sexism, in one form or another, isn't largely responsible.

Err... Excuse me?

I guess you're going to have to put me down as someone else who claims that sexism isn't "largely responsible". In the UK, gender discrimination by employers is taken very, very, VERY seriously, to the point that you are actually more likely to get hired in a male-dominated industry as woman than you are as a man! After all, if both candidates have the same qualifications, why not offer the job to the candidate that will make your company look more "inclusive". It doesn't help that big companies have been hit hard by lawsuits claiming gender discrimination over hiring or firing (something that is often very difficult to prove either way).

I work as a developer for a software company specialising in text messaging systems. We have been madly hiring new developers since I joined the company (over a year ago now). In that time, I've seen dozens and dozens of hopefuls come in for interview. Only one of them has been a woman. Out of interest, I asked the head of recruitment about it. He said that female candidates actually have a really good record of getting past the CV-screening stage (apparently girls write better CVs than guys) but that since very few apply in the first place, he has very few to offer up for interview.

At the moment, I am one of only three women in a technical department of about a hundred. So come on, girls. Programming is fun! Really!

 

[chadachada123]

Spoiler

snip

But why does it need to change? Forcing women into careers they just don't want, and men into the same, would be counterproductive, and, if anything, would increase sexism/resentment towards society.

Just let people go into whatever field they want to (and are good at), regardless of gender. As noted, this is already happening in many fields on the employer end. And if women in general still don't like engineering, then *why should it matter*? There will obviously end up being differences in demographics between careers, no matter how much society just doesn't care, because of differences in chemistry/physiology and just-plain-chance.

Side note: Many people (outside the industry) still think that the comic book industry is sexist, that conditions are nastier for women writers/artists, but at least several females actually in the industry have noted that it just isn't the case; that, while women are rare in the industry, they are not treated differently there. I can provide a source if requested, but it will take some digging. I imagine there's similar things at work for the video game industry.

It's not about forcing women into careers they don't want. Rather, the focus should be on removing societal biases discouraging girls from being interested in those fields in the hopes of entering them when they become women. There are all kinds of issues at play.

Granted, I'm mostly on the "nurture" side of "nature vs nurture." I think the main reason we don't see more women in technical fields is because women are discouraged from being into them as girls, so many who'd otherwise love those fields never develop the skills or passion for them when growing up. The people who argue we *need* more women in those sectors *now* are silly and reductionist. Really, we should be examining and correcting biases in society so that we have more female college grads entering those sectors twenty years down the road.

As for why we should want more women in the game industry besides empowerment... I'm in the "games as young art form" camp. I'd like to see more equal representation of women (and people of color and LGBT individuals) because gaming is an expressive medium and having a more diverse crowd telling stories tends to mean those stories will be more diverse too.

I'm in complete agreement (though I'm undecided about the nature vs nurture, and think that for something as complex as taste and job preference, will always be a bit ambiguous, as far as how often women would like a particular nurturing job compared to men goes). I just want to make sure that we keep this in mind as we go forward in reducing societal requirements; that, all other things being equal, it could still be very possible that a job field ends up 75% of one gender, both through chance or through brain chemistry, and that this is perfectly acceptable. So long as there are no barriers to entry, physical and mental requirements notwithstanding.

Regarding LGBT representation: Being (kind of) bisexual, it's funny that nearly every single representation of bisexuals, both in film, television, and video games, is that they either: haven't "picked a side yet" or are fucking SERIAL KILLING PSYCHOPATHS. This is not an exaggeration, either. Do I mind? I don't really mind this trope being used, but I do mind that so much of society sees sexuality as black-and-white, despite the vast majority of humanity over time being at least some degree in between, not unlike dolphins or bonobos.

That said, I'm also of the opinion that, in the majority of games (shooters especially), the sexuality of a character is irrelevant, and should, in general, be a passing comment and not something done for show, be it straight OR gay or in between. When it's mentioned, the response should, for games that aren't story-driven like Mass Effect, be "huh, cool." What I mean is, if, I don't know, Luigi is gay (or something along those lines), the characters within the universe shouldn't give a shit, and its mention should be casual, since it is irrelevant to the story. That way, all sides win, both in representation but also not appearing as if the inclusion is "token."

 

[Dastardly]

Electronic Arts VP Says Sexism Complaints Are "Misguided"

It's definitely a bit of both.

For one, there's a sort of "gender inertia" in software-related fields that must be broken through. We've created a culture that just seems to accept, without having to say it, "this is a boy thing." That's a remnant of past sexism that still needs upended.

And, on the other hand, when people sit around and tell one another how rigged the game is, other people overhear and assume those people know what they're talking about. So they just scratch that one off the list. "I keep hearing women say how incredibly sexist that field is. No point bothering if they've already tried."

I'm reminded of the story of the baby elephant held in place by a tiny rope around its ankle. It learns that it can't break the rope, and resigns itself to the rope's power. Even when the baby becomes an adult, the elephant still believes in the absolute power of that tiny rope around its ankle, and it doesn't even bother trying to escape... and so stays a captive.

Yes, there was definitely a sort of "captivity" in the past. And no, people aren't lining up at the gates to "free the elephant." But there's also a certain amount of learned acquiescence that can be more easily undone -- we can change ourselves faster than we can change others.

 

[klaynexas3]

Why do so many people ignore the societal elements of sexism? Seriously, why? Is that something that just goes straight over everyone's head? Society and gender roles push women towards more "caring" and "service" careers (like nursing, teaching, and waiting) while it pushes men towards more "technical" and "production" careers (like accounting, construction, and engineering). This is bad and needs to change. Is that so hard to understand? :\

This.

It's a total chicken VS egg scenario in any case. Not many women identify as gamers because not many games target women.

Now isn't that a tad bit contradictory? To help push women out of their niches that were formed around female stereotypes we will use these same stereotypes in games to move them over to this niche and mold it back around them. Why is it that a girl cannot enjoy Final Fantasy even though it isn't directed specifically at them? Most actually good games aren't directed at any gender demographic and simply try to make a good game. While some games might be sexist towards women, it's a smaller amount than most people let on, and like any other creative medium, there really isn't any means of stopping it. If someone is wanting to voice their bigotry through games and have the time, they will, as many amature film makers and writers and musicians have done and still do. The best way to see it leave is to ignore it instead of feeding it. If we want to abandon the sexism, then a girl should be able to enjoy most any game without it being directed directly at them. I didn't start playing video games because Spyro and Crash Bandicoot made me feel more manly, I started playing because I was having fun. If video games are not fun for most girls, then there isn't much you can do about it unless you force them into playing games, which sounds counterproductive.

Sexism in gaming and the industry is a bigger topic than it actually exists in of itself. The community, however, is another matter entirely. That's where the majority of the descrimination lies, though it isn't specifically against women. The only groups that won't be targeted for the most part are the straight males, but they'll be targeted for other reasons besides their sexuality and gender. Hell, they'll still be called a ****** simply because the community is full of assholes. It has its nice people, don't get me wrong, but like any other community, it has its rather vocal asshats. That's where the change needs to be made.

 

[Varitel]

From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice.

I think that the so-called personal choice may actually stem from inherently sexist social pressures. This is the same for almost all of the tech fields. There is this norm that dictates that women don't write code or build things or whatever, that those are "guy" things. There isn't a good reason for it, but such pressures do exist and are also a problem. I spent 4 years pursuing a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, and if you add up all of the women who were ever in any of my engineering classes, you'd get maybe 12. If that many men are "choosing" to go into engineering and that few women, there must be some externalities at work.

Yes, like women making different choices. I just love how women can't even be responsible for their own choices, there is always a man to blame for everything.

That's not at all what I meant. I meant to argue that everyone's choices, men's and women's, are influenced to some degree by societal pressures. It's not about placing blame on one gender or another, and of course other factors come into play as well. This is actually related to one of the oldest debates in psychology, "nature vs. nurture". They are both factors in how we develop as individuals, but no one has yet to agree on which is more powerful. I worded it a bit more strongly that perhaps I should have, thank you for bringing light to that.

 

[Epona]

From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice.

I think that the so-called personal choice may actually stem from inherently sexist social pressures. This is the same for almost all of the tech fields. There is this norm that dictates that women don't write code or build things or whatever, that those are "guy" things. There isn't a good reason for it, but such pressures do exist and are also a problem. I spent 4 years pursuing a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, and if you add up all of the women who were ever in any of my engineering classes, you'd get maybe 12. If that many men are "choosing" to go into engineering and that few women, there must be some externalities at work.

Yes, like women making different choices. I just love how women can't even be responsible for their own choices, there is always a man to blame for everything.

That's not at all what I meant. I meant to argue that everyone's choices, men's and women's, are influenced to some degree by societal pressures. It's not about placing blame on one gender or another, and of course other factors come into play as well. This is actually related to one of the oldest debates in psychology, "nature vs. nurture". They are both factors in how we develop as individuals, but no one has yet to agree on which is more powerful. I worded it a bit more strongly that perhaps I should have, thank you for bringing light to that.

I agree that society influences everyone but I don't think it's fair that it only counts when it affects women negatively. I really wasn't talking to you specifically with that last sentence from my first post, it was more a general criticism to how these conversations go.

I think people need to start thinking more equal minded (like you are) instead of just saying man = oppressor, woman = victim.

 

[Darken12]

I wholeheartedly hope she is right (regarding the presumed absence of sexism), and that her message encouraging women to take a more firm foothold in the industry is heard and takes root.

 

[The Material Sheep]

I wholeheartedly hope she is right (regarding the presumed absence of sexism), and that her message encouraging women to take a more firm foothold in the industry is heard and takes root.

I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.

Also... am I the only one who finds Mr. Chalk to be a poor journalist? I mean he writes well and it's not like he's got uninformed opinions, but the guy doesn't seem to know/care a damn thing about the way journalism is suppose to work. Nearly all his articles are just leading towards conclusions and not really the most informative. I understand your suppose to be selling a product of sorts but just tell the story and leave out the editorializing. We aren't here for your opinions on the matter Mr. Chalk.

 

[Darken12]

I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.

I meant sexism in excess of the norm. One would think that with the treatment of women in videogames and the whole Sarkeesian disaster, that the industry would be similar (I mean, look at the Dead Island: Riptide severed bust. I wonder if some of the developers were women, and whether they thought that might be in poor taste).

 

[Abomination]

I find it depressing that this opinion is only considered valid because it was a woman who has it. When earlier sentiments have been expressed by men they have been shot down, ignored or simply mocked.

There is not some magical restriction in the game industry that states "you must have these genitals to ride". The reason there are less women in the gaming industry is because less are interested in the gaming industry because of some self fulfilling prophecy stating that the industry is sexist and the number of women not in the industry proves it! Talk about circular causality.

 

[The Material Sheep]

I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.

I meant sexism in excess of the norm. One would think that with the treatment of women in videogames and the whole Sarkeesian disaster, that the industry would be similar (I mean, look at the Dead Island: Riptide severed bust. I wonder if some of the developers were women, and whether they thought that might be in poor taste).

I think its a misconception of joining the industry itself with the community that has congregated around it. I'd agree with you that the gaming community itself is probably more sexist/homophobic on a percentage level then the average populace, but you have to divorce the community from the professional industry that has to deal with legal matters, corporate oversight and lets face it just benign self interest. I'm just GLAD to not be surprised on this matter and to see that it's a rather level headed place in the industry itself. Well... I'm glad that one piece of evidence supports the claim at least.

 

[Something Amyss]

I think there is some truth to this. From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice. That said, sexism in the industry and the community is still an issue, and we do need to talk about it and try to weed it out.

On the flipside, there are fewer women in general in technical fields and women tend to perform worse at math and science.

We can believe that women just aren't good at math and science and the like, or look to external issues.

So yeah, there may be a grain of truth, but I think it's coated in a big wad of something else.

 

[lacktheknack]

It's a valid point. I'm in an electronics engineering course, which is a "stereotypical male career". We don't have any problem with women, it's just that only TWO applied, and then one dropped out because of constant illness.

So we have one girl in a class of twenty. Because we're so sexist, right? No, because women may apply, but they just aren't.

It's reversed in the nursing industry. I recently visited my sister in the hospital, and there was not a male nurse to be seen. Because sexism? No, because men don't often apply to nursing. I know some do (I even know a guy who has), but they're so rare right now that we'll have to wait for things to balance out naturally. Even if we only accepted male nursing applications starting tomorrow, we still wouldn't have an influx of male nurses for another six or seven years...