Electronic Arts VP Says Sexism Complaints Are "Misguided"

[maninahat]

snip

I have already said that society influences everyone. That's just part of living in civilization. My beef is this:

Women dominate many fields, they practically own the education system that boys are failing out of but there is never a big stink about getting more men into fields dominated by women. When it comes to sexism, many people think that it only affects women.

I'd say that by and large women have had the shitter end of the societal stick, but I agree that men are affected by societal influences at least as much. No one should deny that, and nor should they deny that men are victims of sexism and gender stereotyping too. Hell, you can't even become a male nurse or hairdresser without someone assuming you're gay or a pussy. And don't even think about crying, mister.

Sadly, the tendency is for people to only ever bring up male persecution whenever someone starts trying to talk about women issues; these people tend not to actually give that much of a shit about male issues, they just want to use it as a means to stop the feminists from talking about their problems. There is nothing stopping these guys from creating their own threads about male problems (and we sorely need those discussions), and it infuriates me that male issues get reduced to a conversational roadblock for an unrelated discussion about women.

 

[Brainwreck]

Well, women generally go into lines of work that are accepted as 'being a line of work a woman would choose'. There's the explanation for them being the minority in game design.
Is that sexism?
I'm not a fucking professor here. I can't comment on that.
It's simply the state of society.

 

[Atmos Duality]

But what if that was not the reason why? I mean its a good question before one jumps to the old adage of "If a girls not there working they must hate women there"

I think its worthy to consider other possibilities.

Then go ahead and consider them as well.
Just because you want to consider them doesn't automatically exclude sexism a possibility.
I consider it the strongest possibility, given the strong gender bias.

*shrugs* Occam's Razor.

Edit: Also, I'm not saying it's necesarily "overt" sexism like a big "No Girls Allowed" sign, but indirect sexism as a result of market pressures. Female gamers are comparatively rare, due in part to social pressures for them to be more passive and less directly competitive.

It's a shot in the dark, but "tradition" is a strong social force that has enabled and enforced sexism in most society for centuries.

So escapist new topic what other possibilities are there for women not being all 50 50 to men in the industry.(there are quite a few lady devs I should say including kiki wolfkill of 343 industries as if that wasnt feminist enough??)

*slow clap*
Congratulations, you've found an outlier.

 

[Catrixa]

I-hope-you-had-a-good-breakfast snip.

Sorry for barging in here, but I think I understand what the issue is and would like to attempt to explain.

I feel like the idea Darken12 is going for is less of a "You are perpetuating sexist ideals and are a bad person!" and more of a "sexist ideals are what is normal. To have non-sexist ideals, you have to look at society through a different lens." You said

That would make a stupid number of people sexist. That would make everyone at Rocksteady sexist because they've upheld something sexist. Everyone at DC would be sexist. Every guy who's bought a Catwoman comic would be sexist, because he's upholding something sexist. Every guy who's bought a comic made by DC would be sexist. That would make the guy who runs the store sexist. The parents who give their kids money to buy the comics would be sexist. The bus driver who drove the kid to the comic store would be sexist. Literally every person causally involved in the generation of revenue from the sale of a comic would be sexist, because we've taken intent out of the equation and then all that matters is whether they're "upholding" sexism.

and, well, kinda yeah. They aren't sexist in the "I am actively trying to diminish the status of women!" sense, but they are perpetuating the idea of "normal." I feel like there's a big issue with how we view the word "sexist" (as more of a dirty insult than an observation) too, but that's a later discussion.

Well, ok, it's not, I lied. Sexist has some really ugly connotations to it in modern society. It gets tossed in a news report and played out like "X company made a sexist movie/TV show/comic/game/advertising campaign/I could really go on forever/etc. They are now the Bad Guy. But you, viewers, didn't like them anyway/they did something so blatantly bad it's hard NOT to see them as the bad guy." This leads people to associate the word with blatant misogyny and other really overt things. But the sexism Darken12 is talking about isn't obvious. It's been built over ages and has resulted in what we call "normal." Ever notice that when a man is seen as womanly it's usually negative, but when a woman is seen as manly it's sometimes ok, or even desirable? Yeah, there's the whole "women as too manly are always bad" parts, but this stuff isn't really easily defined. But the idea that masculine is better than feminine, and thus men should be manly and women should be womanly, because they can be only so manly before it gets weird, is the kind of sexism I think he's going for.

Now, to be really fair here, I don't think saying "inadvertent sexism (there ought be a term for this, since 'sexism' carries a lot of weight) is bad, and you should feel bad all the time about it" is constructive. It's more like... working on a personality trait after someone mentions it to you. Maybe you have a bad habit of finishing other people's sentences, and they don't like it. If you want to change, first you have to realize when you do it. Maybe your friends are willing to help you by pointing it out in a friendly manner (so, for a sexism analogue, reading feminist material could help, or finding someone friendly to help you understand it. I took a class in college, honestly). Then you start catching yourself doing it. Maybe you do it, realize it, and apologize. After awhile, you're letting others finish their sentences without even realizing it. But none of this is overnight/immediate/instant, and you're not a bad person for having the habit to begin with.

And opinions vary on sexism issues as well as with finishing other people's sentences. To keep with my horrible metaphor, maybe it's a sign of intelligence and wit in your family, but not with your friends. There are a lot different thoughts on whether or not "rape culture" is a thing, and what even describes it. Honestly, I can see the points of both sides and agree with parts that make sense to me. The whole idea is not to place blame (although some people do that and it's really irritating), but rather to point out something that, if looked at outside of the current definition of "normal," could be considered objectifying and degrading. At the end of the day: everyone is a little bit sexist/racist/etc. We're all not perfect. We've all got something to work on. The hardest part is realizing that and doing something about it, whether it's finishing other people's sentences or perpetuating the sexism of today.

Sorry if I'm not being very clear, this is one of those grey areas that can be hard to explain (and I am not very good at explaining things in general).

 

[cobra_ky]

Toledano acknowledged that sexism is an issue but claimed that it's no worse in the videogame industry than anywhere else. Instead, she said that a lot of women are reluctant to identify as gamers, which naturally precludes any thoughts about pursuing a career in game development, and that while the industry "needs and wants more women," there just aren't enough of them to hire.

huh, i wonder why women are reluctant to identify as gamers. could it be something to dow tih widespread harassment and the game industry trying to sell them their own dismembered torsos?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Then go ahead and consider them as well.
Just because you want to consider them doesn't automatically exclude sexism a possibility.
I consider it the strongest possibility, given the strong gender bias.

From reading the abject horror stories that are unearthed for the The Trenches [http://www.trenchescomic.com] editorial confessional the strongest possibility I can think of is that the working conditions are harsh, exploitative and brutal for what amounts to an office job. The industry is under no pressure to improve working conditions. It's a tough luck economy out there, and every developer is snowed under by job applications sent in by bright-eyed, bushy tailed dream chasers looking to net their dream job. Most of which will end up being ground down at both ends and spat out by an industry that thinks that it is normal acceptable business practice to lean on employees for unpaid overtime whenever and wherever they can get away with it.

You want the sexist reason for the lack of women in the gaming industry? How about when the going gets tough, the women get going. Going job hunting for a less demanding and more rewarding job than the majority of video game industry positions.

 

[cobra_ky]

People say if women want to be portrayed equally in games they should get into the games industry, but frankly this isn't a problem of sexism. This is a problem of marketing demographics. If companies with millions of dollars at their disposal can't figure out how to portray women in a manner that appeals to women, then clearly they aren't using their resources to their fullest advantage. If you can't get people who are creative and intuitive enough to write decent characters who aren't their gender, then clearly you aren't hiring the right writers. You don't need a woman to write decent female characters, what you need is a decent writer, male or female. "Not enough women" working in games is no excuse for bad writing.

How is a failure to portray women in ways that appeal to them anything but a problem of sexism?

You have a point about writers, but women do have something of an advantage in writing realistic female characters (having lived as one) and they are also better situated to evaluate who is or isn't capable of writing them decently.

 

[rbstewart7263]

But what if that was not the reason why? I mean its a good question before one jumps to the old adage of "If a girls not there working they must hate women there"

I think its worthy to consider other possibilities.

Then go ahead and consider them as well.
Just because you want to consider them doesn't automatically exclude sexism a possibility.
I consider it the strongest possibility, given the strong gender bias.

*shrugs* Occam's Razor.

Edit: Also, I'm not saying it's necesarily "overt" sexism like a big "No Girls Allowed" sign, but indirect sexism as a result of market pressures. Female gamers are comparatively rare, due in part to social pressures for them to be more passive and less directly competitive.

It's a shot in the dark, but "tradition" is a strong social force that has enabled and enforced sexism in most society for centuries.

So escapist new topic what other possibilities are there for women not being all 50 50 to men in the industry.(there are quite a few lady devs I should say including kiki wolfkill of 343 industries as if that wasnt feminist enough??)

*slow clap*
Congratulations, you've found an outlier.

But have we asked these women? what if they just really dont give a fuck I mean we are not the unique snowflake of hobbyists that we think we are. Isnt it by itself insulting to the female psyche to say that the big ole meano society is telling them to conform and lo there they go not playing games until we say its ok?

We have women that do play videogames alot of women. hell the number is 50/50 in terms of gamers. I mean this hobby is just now starting to grow up We just started this conversation like practically speaking THIS YEAR. Back in the snes days games were thought of more as toys for little boys. Extensions of there will to be heros nad football players. We are only what 3 console gens ahead of that so we are just now breaking out into something more.

Dont get me wrong I expect nothing more but for this medium to expand itself but for me to patronize the industry for not doing it in less time than what it takes for your typical triple A to be developed.(The amount of time for said inclusive nonoffensive games to be made not including indie) And to also patronize women in the process because of some "numbers as validation" thought process? count me out sir.

 

[Jennacide]

Side note: Many people (outside the industry) still think that the comic book industry is sexist, that conditions are nastier for women writers/artists, but at least several females actually in the industry have noted that it just isn't the case; that, while women are rare in the industry, they are not treated differently there. I can provide a source if requested, but it will take some digging. I imagine there's similar things at work for the video game industry.

Just as a point, the comic industry DOES still have it bad, because they rally to defend idiotic remarks like that idiot author a few months that basically called female geeks "frauds and whores."

While I agree with the article that sexism isn't really the case, there is more going on. I had once considered going into game development when my brother went back to school for his BA. But then I looked at the courses he had to take, and my brain just doesn't work like his. I can't handle the high level math required to get a degree in the field, despite the fact I wouldn't even want to go into a programming level. Which as it stands right now, you seem to need one of three things to get a foot in the door:
1) A high level programming degree, to show you can at least do grunt work.
2) Already proven yourself on a project. (Much like Kim Swift had to do with Narbacular Drop/Portal)
3) Someone with an inside path, a friend in the industry to get you started in your field.

That's why I ditched the path, because I can't wrap my head around programming past basic stuff like HTML, and don't even know where else I could begin. Instead I went into acting, which has pretty much already ended for me. =(

 

[cikame]

Being that she is part of the business side of the company i can't really take her words seriously, her job is money not creation of entertainment/art.
That being said i believe any sexism in this industry is on the part of individuals not an 'aura' of understanding hanging around entire buildings of people, but that's the same with any company or group or sport.

 

[Lieju]

Why do so many people ignore the societal elements of sexism? Seriously, why? Is that something that just goes straight over everyone's head? Society and gender roles push women towards more "caring" and "service" careers (like nursing, teaching, and waiting) while it pushes men towards more "technical" and "production" careers (like accounting, construction, and engineering). This is bad and needs to change. Is that so hard to understand? :\

It's easy to understand but most people think that sexism only applies to women and I object to those people. No one screams sexism when women dominate teaching or nursing because that wouldn't be PC.

I do. They are part of the same problem.

Based on my personal observations, there is cultural pressure for girls to go to less mathematical fields, and for boys to go for more technical fields. In high school, there were far more boys who chose the mathematical courses, not because they were better, but because they chose it even if they weren't as good at math, because their friends took those courses, while girls who were mediocre shied away from them.

I've always loved math, but as a girl I always faced accusations that I must have been cheating, or that I must have just been working hard to please the teachers, when I was just naturally good at math, and never had to work for it. (And that I was never challenged came to bite me later in life.)

I have always liked video-games, but never even thought of it as a career as a kid, not because I was a girl, but because I thought you needed to be Japanese to get into the industry...

They aren't sexist in the "I am actively trying to diminish the status of women!" sense, but they are perpetuating the idea of "normal."

Exactly. the view that being male is the 'normal' state of human existence is do deeply engraved to our culture people just don't notice it.

This isn't even a case like with homosexuality where it can be argued that it's a minority, about half of people are women!

I did not mean to imply that was the ONLY cause, but that claiming sexism isn't a significant force in the gaming industry, when there are few to no prominent female figures in it, is just stupid.

That is not automatic evidence of sexism on its own. Garbage collectors are mostly men too, sexism?

Well, duh, obviously. It's not like you need a penis to drive a garbage truck, so there is no biological reason why there would not be 50/50 male and female garbage collectors.

EDIT: Historically, you probably needed strength for the job so it made sense the field was male-dominated. But these days with the advances of technology, women can do the job just as well.

 

[Lilani]

How is a failure to portray women in ways that appeal to them anything but a problem of sexism?

Because I'm a writer and I know how tricky it is to write characters you have little in common with. What gender a writer is and how familiar they are with the opposite sex isn't their fault. And nor does it make them sexist if they have trouble understanding what women like to see in other women.

Some writers just can't get their head around the opposite sex very well. They can write the characters they need to get by, but usually they'll just write things that play to their strengths. Writing is a lot like acting in that you have to be able to get your head into the character's head, and if you can't do that for certain types of characters then they just aren't in your repertoire. Just because I can't get my head around the culture of urban black gangs and what it's like to live in that situation doesn't make me racist, it just means I have too little experience in that area to be able to successfully portray that world and the conflicts that arise in it.

But again, it's just a matter of finding the writers who can do this, and who are interested in doing it. It's very easy to find experienced male writers in the industry who have little experience in writing well-rounded females, just because the entertainment industry is still shaped to appeal to a mostly male audience. It is rarely asked of them. And that's where the deep pockets of a company like EA come in handy--digging out those writers that are skilled in writing many types of characters, and avoiding those old formulas of storytelling and character development that address females only in passing.

You have a point about writers, but women do have something of an advantage in writing realistic female characters (having lived as one) and they are also better situated to evaluate who is or isn't capable of writing them decently.

Yes they do have an advantage, and I never said avoid female writers. But there are some who would go so far as to claim that only female writers can write female characters properly, which is just ignorant. And, believe it or not, there are female writers who aren't good at writing female characters, at least ones that are unlike them. They have two modes for writing women: idealized version of the author, and stereotypes of other females they've encountered in life. And this problem can occur in men, as well.

All I'm saying is good writing isn't about things you have in common with. Writing is being able to learn about and understand things you both do and don't have things in common with, and reflecting that understanding back onto the page.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I agree that video game studios aren't particularly sexist, at least not in their hiring practices compared to anywhere else. It's more of the casual sexism that's pervasive in games and the exclusiveness of games that makes girls feel that many games "aren't for them" that pushes them away from developing an interest in them in the first place. When I was a kid, it seemed like nobody cared who played games, and almost all the girls I knew (which was pretty much everyone I knew) played them. Very few of them still do, and it was as we got older that I started hearing about how games are for guys and it's weird if you play them.

Then again, Mario is probably a bit more welcoming than Marcus Fenix. I'd say that it's more in the AAA studios where women are less common. A lot of females in the game industry get into more casual games for that reason. AAA games are shifting farther away from targeting the female market over the years, and it has caused a cycle which, in the end, leads to less women wanting to be involved in those games.

 

[Durgiun]

What's this? Someone saying we should combat sexism by being proactive, instead of begging the government to change everything?

Why don't you take your reason and sanity and get the fuck off of Earth. We don't like your kind here.

 

[cobra_ky]

How is a failure to portray women in ways that appeal to them anything but a problem of sexism?

Because I'm a writer and I know how tricky it is to write characters you have little in common with. What gender a writer is and how familiar they are with the opposite sex isn't their fault. And nor does it make them sexist if they have trouble understanding what women like to see in other women.

Some writers just can't get their head around the opposite sex very well. They can write the characters they need to get by, but usually they'll just write things that play to their strengths. Writing is a lot like acting in that you have to be able to get your head into the character's head, and if you can't do that for certain types of characters then they just aren't in your repertoire. Just because I can't get my head around the culture of urban black gangs and what it's like to live in that situation doesn't make me racist, it just means I have too little experience in that area to be able to successfully portray that world and the conflicts that arise in it.

But again, it's just a matter of finding the writers who can do this, and who are interested in doing it. It's very easy to find experienced male writers in the industry who have little experience in writing well-rounded females, just because the entertainment industry is still shaped to appeal to a mostly male audience. It is rarely asked of them. And that's where the deep pockets of a company like EA come in handy--digging out those writers that are skilled in writing many types of characters, and avoiding those old formulas of storytelling and character development that address females only in passing.

i don't think we're disagreeing here actually. You're absolutely correct about individual writers, and whether or not a given writer can write a particular type of character convincingly isn't really a concern for me.

but as you said, the entertainment industry, as a whole, is still shaped to appeal to a predominantly male audience. That's a problem of institutional sexism, and that's what i was referring to.

You have a point about writers, but women do have something of an advantage in writing realistic female characters (having lived as one) and they are also better situated to evaluate who is or isn't capable of writing them decently.

Yes they do have an advantage, and I never said avoid female writers. But there are some who would go so far as to claim that only female writers can write female characters properly, which is just ignorant. And, believe it or not, there are female writers who aren't good at writing female characters, at least ones that are unlike them. They have two modes for writing women: idealized version of the author, and stereotypes of other females they've encountered in life. And this problem can occur in men, as well.

All I'm saying is good writing isn't about things you have in common with. Writing is being able to learn about and understand things you both do and don't have things in common with, and reflecting that understanding back onto the page.

Ah. i wasn't aware of anyone arguing that men could never write good female characters. That's inane. All i was saying is that women have a slight advantage in having lived experience as a woman when approaching female characters. I can't write urban black youth because i never had much opportunity to learn about them, whereas someone who grew up in that community would have had to learn just to navigate basic social situations. They may or may not be a good writer, but all other things being equal, that's an advantage they'd have over me.

Also, it's not just about the writers here, it's about the managers making the decisions, those managers are mostly men, and know from experience how to make games that appeal to men; they know less about appealing to women. they need to learn to recognize what appeals to women before they can hire the people who are best at it.

i guess the tl;dr version is: it's not that just hiring more women will solve the problem of female representation, it's that solving the problem will result in more women entering the industry and getting hired.

 

[cobra_ky]

huh, i wonder why women are reluctant to identify as gamers. could it be something to dow tih widespread harassment and the game industry trying to sell them their own dismembered torsos?

If that argument floats, men would be extremely reluctant to be gamers. Men in videogames tend to be bodybuilding gods on steroids, each with a stereotypical build that's not so common. It's a highly unrealistic and patronizing image.

So men wouldn't get into games, right? But they do, so something about that explanation of 'unrealistic image = doesn't want to game' must be wrong.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with my argument, actually. Musclebound action heroes are appealing to men, the cultural ideal for men is to be the strongest and toughest. Sexy zombie torsos are also appealing to men, because men generally like violence and also titties. Women certainly don't fantasize about being dismembered torsos, or being harassed online, either. "unrealistic and patronizing" images have very little to do with it, really.

As for Chem, I'm really fucking shocked at how terrible an argument you have for being in the video game industry. But then again the trend continues that I notice. When it comes to dealing with sexism and game development instead of seeing said sexism as a tool to make a more dynamic world(mario must be very sexist by your logic of casual sexism in games) everything that would make games an art would basically be sucked out and we would all be left playing the tycoon series. Casual sexism is a joke of an argument. The only sexism you should EVER be worried about is the personal kind in your real life. Because I can go down to my local library and find thousands of books written by women and are VERY popular because they are full of sexism. It's part of the territory of a writer(MUCH LIKE AN ARTIST LIKE YOURSELF) to write creative situations that either challenge or simply create a new society or world with different social norms and that is what makes ART like in books, drawings, movies and video games interesting. Hell if it was up to you and your standards that you espouse here no one would be interested in video games because it would all reflect our boring reality. Sorry but I want to enjoy sexism in games. Worlds where I save a helpless princess, or a rape victim, or a butch female who views men as a lesser being are just more interesting than having everyone get along where no one has any conflict and tries to be nice to each other.

I'm not sure you understand Chem's argument. She said Mario games were more welcoming to women, and it's today's AAA titles that drive them off with casual sexism.

Also, it is also hypocritical that you are a woman and you say despite having a career in the video game industry that girls are pushed away. I'm sorry but that is just as much bullshit as Paul Ryan criticizing the president's inaugural address about food stamps and social security that it made people lazy when Paul Ryan himself growing up and stated himself that he was able to pursue more opportunities because of the same programs.

Just because one particular woman managed to achieve a career in the game industry, doesn't mean that lots of other women weren't dissuaded or that men in general don't have an advantage over women. By your logic, the only way we could say the game industry discriminates against women is if there were absolutely none working there.

 

[mizi]

huh, i wonder why women are reluctant to identify as gamers. could it be something to dow tih widespread harassment and the game industry trying to sell them their own dismembered torsos?

If that argument floats, men would be extremely reluctant to be gamers. Men in videogames tend to be bodybuilding gods on steroids, each with a stereotypical build that's not so common. It's a highly unrealistic and patronizing image.

So men wouldn't get into games, right? But they do, so something about that explanation of 'unrealistic image = doesn't want to game' must be wrong.

Actually the way I see it in our current society it is rather bipolar when it comes to image and men and women.

You show a boy a toy of some powerful male character and they will strive through their imagination to BE that person and try and adopt what that child thinks that character is because it is what they can do.

You show a girl a toy of some powerful female character and they fell inferior to that character and all the looks and characteristics and things they have that the girl does not.

I'm interested to know where you got this idea from, it seems very strange to me. Was the power of this female character based on her physical appearance? How old were these girls? It was not very long ago when beauty was supposed to be a woman's strongest power, and society has yet to shake off all those old preconceptions. Girls, especially teenagers, understand that it's important to be considered beautiful. Thus it's a source of anxiety for woman at one time or another in their lives. The toy comparison is probably a reflection of the uncertainty a young girl might about her appearence, but I wouldn't expect to see that in a prepubescent girl. I certainly didn't a problem imagining myself with godlike powers as a child.

I guess I'll throw out my opinion: Society exerts a huge amount of influence on everybody, male or female. Gender roles have always been a HUGE part of society since the dawn of humanity. We all understand what makes something masculine or feminine in our society without even trying hard. Again, without thinking very hard about it, people will gravitate toward things that are associated with their gender. This is a very subtle gravitational pull that can be overridden by a whole host of other things, but it exists and it is influential.
Triple AAA Gaming has 'This thing is for boys' written in huge letters across all genres. The gun fights, space marines, blood splatter, grizzly stoic guys with an axe to grind and girls who look like pinup models are all indicators of their true nature. These games are made for guys, their look and feel is entirely masculine. Some women avidly play these games, but they are in the minority. Most women won't get into hardcore gaming because of that 'thing is for boys' discouragement right from the start. So, the womenless cycle of gamer and developer continues into infinity.

Also, a shout out to Darkman12 and Gethsemani for making this thread a really interesting read.

 

[m19]

How is a failure to portray women in ways that appeal to them anything but a problem of sexism?

Because failure does not equal malicious intent. Sexism is an act of discrimination.