Epic: DLC Needed to Fight "Used Game Culture"

[robert01]

Fingers crossed that the book industry never figures out a way to do this.

You mean with ebooks and all the various formats they come in, including DRM laced adobe epubs?

OT:I think back in the day used games sales were a lot different than they are now. Game never used to have budgets as large as they do now, some game budgets are higher than some Hollywood blockbuster films. Everytime a used game is purchased whether it be a AAA title or an Indie title the publishers lose the money. Why should they support a game in an industry where they can't risk it flopping? Publishers aren't in the industry to make revolutionary games they are in it to make money. That is why Call of Duty gets a new game every year, because it makes money. As soon as it stops, they will stop making them. Forget this whole part about "make a game that people don't want to sell", that is complete and total bullshit. There is always going to be people that just play the game for the story, complete the game and move on to the next. They have no care or want to go back and replay it to find any Easter Eggs or whatnot, they achieved their goal, and they want a new story.

Just like piracy, used games nothing to help the market they are in, they just pretend they are important. If you want bigger, better, revolutionary games. Start buying the fucking things new. Think of that extra $5 an investment in the future of gaming,

 

[viranimus]

For the those who quoted me. I get your points, but what we have here is a situation like a crime. The points I am making are at the point of outrage at the verdict of the trial, while this collective is crying foul at the arraignment. Cant ignore 85% of the situation just so it fits your Beckish philosophy and remain fixated on one minor facet.

For example when I say, the publishers have no right. I am not meaning the publishers have no right of control over their product. I mean the publishers have no right to obliterate subsidiary industries because it conflicts with there profit margins especially when they make not only enough profit to cover production costs, or cover the production costs of their next project, but still make millions in univalent profit And supporting a corporations ability to do this is exactly why the economy is in the shitter right now.

So no.. I have no sympathy for some dick spouting off how unfair it is to have to compete with used sales knowing full well that this is one of the most obscenely profitable industries and knowing that the used market IS a legitimate industry, and that industry exists for a reason. and no if you removed the used market, without question, a used sale does not equate out to a lost potential new sale.

With this heavy emphasis as of late in online passes, DLC as antiused measures, can you ask yourself why is it the industry seems more focused on used sales than piracy? The reason? Used will be the harder fight to eliminate due to its legality.

Oh btw on the subject of hyperbole, You have to have an exaggeration, to have hyperbole.

 

[shadowform]

DLC is not needed to fight used game culture. Lasting game value and a willingness to decrease prices over time, rather than maintaining a strict $60 price point for 12 months after release, are needed to fight used game culture. What game publishers are complaining against is, basically, the forces of capitalism at work. To be frank, the fact that people sell games back to places like Gamestop is a sign that they feel the game isn't worth keeping around anymore. Now, look at some of the classic SNES games on Ebay:

Chrono Trigger - new in box, $1500
Final Fantasy 3/6 - in box, $50-200
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past - in box, $150
Contra 3 - in box, $200
Earthbound - without box, $100 and up
Hagane - in box, $750
Gradius III - in box, $50
Ogre Battle - without box, $50 and up

This is just a quick sample of the games that I remember off the top of my head. I'm certain there are others. Several of these are, far and away, valued higher than current-gen tech. A lot of this is collecter's value for unopened boxes, true, but look at what this says from a simple economic perspective:

The supply does not meet the demand.

Granted, there have been some moves to profit from this demand, releasing games like Chrono Trigger on the virtual console (not sure if others have received this treatment; I know that FF3/6 was also put out on a PS1 compilation disc with a few other classics), but lets take a look at some of the pre-owned game sales for more current games.

Halo: Combat Evolved - new in box, $12
Halo 2 - $12
Doom 3 - new in box, $40
Soul Calibur II - new in box, $10
Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind - new in box, $25
Max Payne - $12
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time - new in box, $20
Grant Theft Auto: San Andreas - new in box, $120
Silent Hill 2 - new in box, $110

It should be pretty clear that some of these things are not like the other.

Hopefully, this will highlight some of the discrepancy between supply and demand for some of these games. The price on a lot of modern games drops (through used games) mostly because the supply far outstrips the demand. Simply put, the fact that people do sell these games back to the store right after purchasing them - and at a steep personal loss, no less - should be significant of the fact that there is a feeling that not only are these games not worth the $60 they were first purchased for, but that they are worth closer to what these second-hand stores are offering to buy them back for. The fact that factory sealed copies of Silent Hill 2 are now selling for far more than they once were should signal to someone, somewhere, that the lasting value that these classic games hold makes them valuable.

The drop in price caused by used game sales isn't players being lazy, or corporations taking advantage of publishers. It's the natural market correction for a commodity that's being sold higher than it's actual value.

 

[VanityGirl]

You mean the culture of making games available to people who otherwise would never have bought them an thus has no effect on your bottom line whatsoever? THAT culture?

Do you honestly believe that the average consumer who would buy a game new, who comes into a store and sees that he can buy the exact same game for 10 bucks cheaper, would choose to pay 10 dollars more without any incentive whatsoever? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Coming from someone who works in a game store. People buy new stuff ALL the time, even if it's 5 bucks cheaper. Here's the mentality: "You mean for 5 extra dollars I can just get the new game? Then I'll take the new game"
Maybe people are scared of buying preowned games and the only incentive they have is that the new one hasn't been used yet.

Really, it happens a lot.

Does people buying used, saving money, and publishers and developers not getting a dime happen a lot too? Cause when my friends go into a store to buy a console game, it happens every time, assuming the option is available. And that has real world, business consequences that hurt gamers in the long run.

This again? Look, buying video games preowned has been around since video games were released to the public. What about games that are 20 years old? I mean, should publishers still get a cut?
Buying used games isn't a crime. (Even though I buy 90% of mine new anyway.) Actually there are many book, movie and music stores that sell preowned books, movies and cds.
Why aren't they complaining?

People still buy new games, this much is obvious since Skyrim has made how much money? Modern Warfare has made... how much money?
Clearly there are still MILLIONS of people who buy new.

EDIT: That being said, I'm not against day one DLC. I like it, because then I get stuff that other people who buy it used don't. Just like I enjoy preoder bonuses from stuff. Preorder bonuses also help to increase NEW sales since it gives people incentive to buy new stuff.

 

[Xanadu84]

This again? Look, buying video games preowned has been around since video games were released to the public. What about games that are 20 years old? I mean, should publishers still get a cut?
Buying used games isn't a crime. (Even though I buy 90% of mine new anyway.) Actually there are many book, movie and music stores that sell preowned books, movies and cds.
Why aren't they complaining?

People still buy new games, this much is obvious since Skyrim has made how much money? Modern Warfare has made... how much money?
Clearly there are still MILLIONS of people who buy new.

EDIT: That being said, I'm not against day one DLC. I like it, because then I get stuff that other people who buy it used don't. Just like I enjoy preoder bonuses from stuff. Preorder bonuses also help to increase NEW sales since it gives people incentive to buy new stuff.

No ones saying it is a crime. The fact that everyone wants to pay less for the same product is completely understandable. I get it, you get it, publishers and devs get it. No ones saying nasty things about people wanting to pay less. The factual, cold hard buisness reality, however, says that a completely unregulated used game market makes 0 business sense, and hurts games in general. And by and large, Devs solutions to this business problem have by and large been COMPLETELY REASONABLE. They use a carrot instead of a stick, even when the carrot looks a bit like a stick in the right light.

Other mediums don't have to complain. Books have a very low overhead in comparison to games. If a book is a little bit popular, they make money. Then they can possibly go on to inspire movies, and make even more money. CDs, and music in general, are the same deal, plus there are advertiser paid radio-like services, and income from live shows, merch, etc. And movies have merch, theaters with food sales, home DVD, collectors editions, lots of places to make money. Games make money off of selling there game, and the return not only has to justify some of the most expensive budgets in entertainment, but also justify all the money going towards developing platforms like X Box and Playstation. Used games directly compete with new games in an arena where new games just can't win.

Sure, people buy new. Used games won't cause the end to video games as we know it. But imagine if you went to work to grab your paycheck, and it was for 25% less. And your boss said, "What, your still getting a paycheck, why are you complaining?" From a business perspective, that's what is happening with used games. Publishers have every reason and right to want to get a piece of the pie. But even if you think that publishers are monkeys who must serve your every whim, Used games STILL hurt you. When a percentage of a games sales goes to used, publishers turn around an cancel that nifty, innovative, genre bending narrative focused game, or brave, crazy sounding new IP, and greenlight a Call of Duty clone, because it is safer. They also shy away from certain Genres that are wonderful but might lack replayability, and tack on hackneyed multiplayer that detracts resources from a stellar single player in an attempt to pad game time and avoid returns.

Honestly, I think that until Digital Distribution becomes the standard, places like Gamestop should just cut publishers in on the profits from used games. Obviously it doesn't have to be much, given the cost of online passes.Just something that makes sure that a game sold compensates the people who made that game. Even have a statute of limitations, so you don't have to keep track of ancient games.

 

[Doc Cannon]

Used game sales, a long standing part of the industry, seems to have replaced piracy as the industry boogeyman of choice, with numerous developers blaming them for poor, or lower than expected, game sales in recent years.

Maybe the problem lies with their expectations? (Insert rant about non-stop corporate greed for greater revenues).

Publishers have every reason and right to want to get a piece of the pie.

I don't agree with that. Once you buy it it's yours to do as you please, even resell it. I spit on their rights! Figuratively.
If art supplies makers decided they wanted a cut of the masterpiece an artist made they'd be branded insane and the only way to restore their honor would include some weird quest which would end up being a journey of self discovery.

But a more appropriate example would be my own job, which includes the making of websites for a thing called the internet (it's more appropriate because like games it has to do with ideas and computarized artistic creations of great design!). Say someone wants to resell the site I made for them. I couldn't care less (only my feelings would get hurt). The site changing owners has nothing to do with me.

I do feel publishers are trying to make money out of thin air. (So am I, but I am poor you see).
If you have money you get a new game. Always. Nobody likes other people's stuff. WHY IS THIS DVD SO STICKY!?
And if you can only afford used games (because you are a poor wretch, or because you simply don't spend more than a few dollars on games), no carrot is going to change that.
People only pay what they feel is worth for something. And that includes games.

Like this guy said 4 posts before:

STUFF

 

[Xanadu84]

I don't agree with that. Once you buy it it's yours to do as you please, even resell it. I spit on their rights! Figuratively.
If art supplies makers decided they wanted a cut of the masterpiece an artist made they'd be branded insane and the only way to restore their honor would include some weird quest which would end up being a journey of self discovery.

But a more appropriate example would be my own job, which includes the making of websites for a thing called the internet (it's more appropriate because like games it has to do with ideas and computarized artistic creations of great design!). Say someone wants to resell the site I made for them. I couldn't care less (only my feelings would get hurt). The site changing owners has nothing to do with me.

I do feel publishers are trying to make money out of thin air. (So am I, but I am poor you see).
If you have money you get a new game. Always. Nobody likes other people's stuff. WHY IS THIS DVD SO STICKY!?
And if you can only afford used games (because you are a poor wretch, or because you simply don't spend more than a few dollars on games), no carrot is going to change that.
People only pay what they feel is worth for something. And that includes games.

Like this guy said 4 posts before:

STUFF

Except that your analogy about your job makes no sense.

An analogy that would be applicable would be if you design a web site for an individual, and when he decides that he needs to change the site later, he goes and stands out in front of your place of buisness, flash drive in hand, and when a customers goes to walk through your door to pay for your services, that person says, "Hey, theres everything you need for your website right here. And Ill charge you less then that guy in there", and every time a person decided to change there website from your design, they stand in front of your office and undercut you.

Comparing games to physical objects also makes no sense. Physical objects depreciate in value. They get used up, worn out, so on and so forth. A used game is functionally identical to a new game. If you think that theres a significant stigma against owning a game that other people used already, then I think you have never had a limit to your cash when you visited a game store. Ive never met a person IRL who would turn down the copy of the game thats 10 bucks cheaper and is wrapped in a cheaper plastic wrap in favor of completely new. In fact, whenever I got a game, if there was a used copy available and I tried to buy new, the cashier would pull out the used game and tell me that I could save money for the exact same game. I never turned them down. I since switched to PC exclusively, but I have to wonder if publishers ever made money off of me.

You can go back in forth with the arguments of some idealized world where companies arn't greedy but still manage to stay profitable all you want. End of the day, the buisness, mathamatical reality is that used games make no sense. Sure, we all WANT to believe that companies are out of line when they put a small bump in the road to our saving money. But the reality is that allowing used sales in a business doesn't work, and cutting publishers in on the deal will vastly improve the medium as a whole. At the end of the day, if you buy used, you are not the publishers customer. You are Gamestops (Or wherever you shop). Your complaint is with them. What motivation does a publisher have to facilitate the gaming of a person who hasn't given them a dime?