Epic President Dumps On Used Games, Piracy
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
They save you 5 dollars from gamestop. And that's a rip off If you don't think so , look at ebay where used and new have a viable price difference.
It's amoral to not give the developers money just because of an insignifigant amount of money. And that's not the reason most people don't pay for price. Most people don't want to pay full price just because they're stingy.
I honestly don't know where I stand on this. I can see the frustration people are feeling at having to pay for content that they think should come with the game. Although, I can also see that anyone buying the game at retail won't run into issues, because these bits of content will come with the retail copy. However, the chains that set their entire business model around flipping used games have been seen as a problem for a long time.
Even here on the Escapist, we've had MANY articles [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/search?search=gamestop&x=0&y=0&news_searchpage=1&news_searchsort=category_name+asc] on this very subject. I'm almost positive that what most companies are considering as damage to themselves are the new games.
These are the games that you are buying from anywhere at $10 to a dollar under full retail price from stores like Gamestop. That people are buying used because it's still $5 cheaper then full retail. These almost full price games are the copies that people would be buying at full price from another store new if it wasn't just easier to get it for a bit cheaper.
Companies like Epic will be fine either way, even with the relatively low percentage of people buying full retail compared to used or pirated copies, Epic will do fine. They'll all still be driving their fancy cars and living the life they always dreamed as a game developer for a successful studio, and will have many more popular games. The people who are hurt by this are the smaller studios who don't have a nest egg of personal IP or a rabid fanbase to keep them afloat when their game performs at 20% under cost.
Yeah yeah, same arguments as anti-piracy stuff in general, but from a game company's perspective, used games are as bad if not worse then pirated games. These are the games that the company is expected to support and dedicate payed time to for people who aren't helping to pay for that very support. And unlike pirated games, they can't just brush off 'customers' who feel that they have purchased a game from the company.
I'm not saying Epic is doing this in the best way possible, or is doing it for altruistic reasons (who doesn't like getting hats of money for their work?). But they are big enough to pull it off and let the smaller companies follow in their footsteps without being forced to move to a completely locked down platform like Steam or Live Arcade.
I will personally say that I have no problem with this as long as I can access everything from my retail games. And having to pay a bit more for key pieces of content off of a used game... well I'll just wait until that used game is cheap enough to make the extra cost still fall under retail.
Even here on the Escapist, we've had MANY articles [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/search?search=gamestop&x=0&y=0&news_searchpage=1&news_searchsort=category_name+asc] on this very subject. I'm almost positive that what most companies are considering as damage to themselves are the new games.
These are the games that you are buying from anywhere at $10 to a dollar under full retail price from stores like Gamestop. That people are buying used because it's still $5 cheaper then full retail. These almost full price games are the copies that people would be buying at full price from another store new if it wasn't just easier to get it for a bit cheaper.
Companies like Epic will be fine either way, even with the relatively low percentage of people buying full retail compared to used or pirated copies, Epic will do fine. They'll all still be driving their fancy cars and living the life they always dreamed as a game developer for a successful studio, and will have many more popular games. The people who are hurt by this are the smaller studios who don't have a nest egg of personal IP or a rabid fanbase to keep them afloat when their game performs at 20% under cost.
Yeah yeah, same arguments as anti-piracy stuff in general, but from a game company's perspective, used games are as bad if not worse then pirated games. These are the games that the company is expected to support and dedicate payed time to for people who aren't helping to pay for that very support. And unlike pirated games, they can't just brush off 'customers' who feel that they have purchased a game from the company.
I'm not saying Epic is doing this in the best way possible, or is doing it for altruistic reasons (who doesn't like getting hats of money for their work?). But they are big enough to pull it off and let the smaller companies follow in their footsteps without being forced to move to a completely locked down platform like Steam or Live Arcade.
I will personally say that I have no problem with this as long as I can access everything from my retail games. And having to pay a bit more for key pieces of content off of a used game... well I'll just wait until that used game is cheap enough to make the extra cost still fall under retail.
I'm resigned to epic being a sad excuse for a games developer these days. Mediocre game = mediocre sales. You?re not what you used to be, over the hill baby.
Whenever I see the "Piracy's killing PC gaming" argument made by a big time developer, I have to resist the urge to point them towards CDProjekt or Stardock. These are 2 companies that have made games that are PC exclusive and in a more unpopular genre (RPG and RTS respectively) and sold more then a million units with no copy protection.
I agree that Piracy on the PC is easier then on consoles, but I feel companies are just using it as an excuse when their sales on the PC are bad. I think the main reason for this is a PC gamer is normally a more dedicated gamer and because of this they have higher standards due to long memories (most PC gamers seem to be able to remember classics from the 90s). I also know a number of PC gamers who own consoles and for a lot of games, they buy it for their console because its easier to play (multiplayer, awards etc)which would then negatively impact PC game sales.
Regarding second hand sales, I agree that it impacts the profits of the developers/publishers, but it is something they are going to have to learn to live with. At the moment the games industry is young and as such behaving very immaturely. The way they act regarding piracy and now this is a little scary, but hopefully they will grow up and look to the music and film industries, who have been dealing with these problems for far longer, and learn how best to do things.
I agree that Piracy on the PC is easier then on consoles, but I feel companies are just using it as an excuse when their sales on the PC are bad. I think the main reason for this is a PC gamer is normally a more dedicated gamer and because of this they have higher standards due to long memories (most PC gamers seem to be able to remember classics from the 90s). I also know a number of PC gamers who own consoles and for a lot of games, they buy it for their console because its easier to play (multiplayer, awards etc)which would then negatively impact PC game sales.
Regarding second hand sales, I agree that it impacts the profits of the developers/publishers, but it is something they are going to have to learn to live with. At the moment the games industry is young and as such behaving very immaturely. The way they act regarding piracy and now this is a little scary, but hopefully they will grow up and look to the music and film industries, who have been dealing with these problems for far longer, and learn how best to do things.
Steam + Impulse + GamersGate = the FUTURE. Too bad that companies like Crytek and Epic and EA can't get this through their heads, but the elimination of retail overhead (or at least its reduction down to little more than server cost) is the single greatest advance in electronic distribution in the history of gaming. Funny how you don't hear Valve, Stardock, Paradox, or CD Projekt whining about their lost sales---they do quite well and have low piracy ratios because they make quality games and treat their customers like valued human beings and not convicted felons.fix-the-spade said:
On the other hand, Stardock, Paradox, and CD Projekt also make games that casuals, kids, and teenagers tend to shy away from. So by all means, take your console-tarded shooter and keep it away from the PC.
I know I will never EVER pay for an incomplete game; or a game that cannot be re'sold complete.
If smaller companies don't make a profit ; I blame it on bad advertising or games being bad .
To give an example , where I live I can't find psychonauts anywhere (you know the story , not sold enough fast enough) ; I also can't find it used .
The reason is simple , most people who were lucky enough to actually buy it off the shelves are keeping it.
If smaller companies don't make a profit ; I blame it on bad advertising or games being bad .
To give an example , where I live I can't find psychonauts anywhere (you know the story , not sold enough fast enough) ; I also can't find it used .
The reason is simple , most people who were lucky enough to actually buy it off the shelves are keeping it.
Then what do you propose? If there is something wrong with the product that you can't financially support it in good conscience, do you just deprive yourself of what is otherwise a good game experience? I bought Mass Effect, and got burned by its draconian DRM measures. I actually feel like I did an immoral thing by buying it. Do you think that it would be better to just never play a good game such as this?Baby Tea said:
I am in that "rare minority" that you speak of. I have spent thousands on games that I've never even opened, and many of them I pirated before I actually purchased. It's all a matter of control as to why I pirate. Take the recent example of Too Human. If I believed all the hype on that game, I would have spent $60 on it, and I finished it in 6 1/2 hours. NOT a good purchase. Game companies are around because they want to make money, and that is first and foremost on their mind. They don't care if their game is crap, only that you buy it. They will even flat-out LIE to you in order to get you to give them YOUR money. That is FAR worse than being a pirate, because stealing from your customers is the fast way to go out of business.
Back on topic: I think one thing that is hurting the PC industry most right now is dev's inability to make flexible games that will play on more people's systems. UT3 was mentioned earlier. I personally have a great PC that can run that game with no problems at all. I have a lot of fun with it. However, no one seems to own it when I go online, because only a select handful of PC's are capable of even loading the game. I don't know why anyone would make a game that no one can play, but it sure is becoming the norm for PC games these days. That's one thing that Blizzard has got my respect on. They KNOW that people don't all own supercomputers, and so they make their games playable on the average PC, and not only the top-end ones.
O.K. here is some late breaking news. I pay $16.99 a month for Netflix. Between the amount of discs I go through in that time coupled with the amount of instant watch movies I view I am consuming far more then I pay for. Not to mention the fact that my friends frequently come over and watch movies with me. None of them use Netflix. You also have to factor in the movies that I buy and occasionally lend to them. Plus the movies they buy and occasionally lend to me. None of us have payed for every single movie we have ever seen.
This applies to games as well. I don't have 360 and I won't be getting one anytime soon. But I have gone over to my buddy's house and played his 360 frequently. I didn't pay for any of those games.
Complaining about people playing your games who haven't payed for them is turning your back on the consumers who have. These companies DO NOT have the right to make used games unaccessible. Don't like Gamestop? Cut them off at the knees. I haven't been in a Gamestop under any of its labels in 5 five years and I don't intend to ever go back. Between getting games no longer available to saving some money a few weeks after release used games are here to stay. This constant push by publishers to only focus on what's out now or coming out so they can justify their investment is something far too many people fall for.
The money-suits are in charge of the big labels now. Buy Indie. You'll feel better about your self.
This applies to games as well. I don't have 360 and I won't be getting one anytime soon. But I have gone over to my buddy's house and played his 360 frequently. I didn't pay for any of those games.
Complaining about people playing your games who haven't payed for them is turning your back on the consumers who have. These companies DO NOT have the right to make used games unaccessible. Don't like Gamestop? Cut them off at the knees. I haven't been in a Gamestop under any of its labels in 5 five years and I don't intend to ever go back. Between getting games no longer available to saving some money a few weeks after release used games are here to stay. This constant push by publishers to only focus on what's out now or coming out so they can justify their investment is something far too many people fall for.
The money-suits are in charge of the big labels now. Buy Indie. You'll feel better about your self.
Hope it is ok to quote in such a reduced way?Archon said:
Guess that is the 100.000 question.
So what is it, if not piracy. Maybe the appearance of the two markets, Console market vs. PC market has to do with it.
An example:
A couple of weeks ago there was a really tiny tiny game expo in my city. So they had tons and tons of 360's, Wii's and PS3. They had 5 PC standing in the +16 area. For me the most remarkable was the following: an attendee said I don't play on the PC, it's to twitchy and hectic. I like to sit down on my couch with my gamepad.
So maybe the publishers think, that the console market simply has a broader playerbase and maybe they are not as spoiled or requesting high standards as "elitism PC people" and therefore are easier satisfied.
The other thing that strikes me is when I look at some of the more "famous" ports of console games to the PC. The majority of them where ported "without" love, Star Trek Legacrap is a shining example that springs directly into my mind. Bad controls, not configurable controls, bad netcode, shallow gameplay, below average gameengine and a "we don't care about you attitude". Personally, whenever I hear it is a console port, I let out a small sigh and go into cynic mode and I think I am not the only one that thinks like that and the publishers surely know that.
Regarding the reselling of used games
Somehow the "fuss" about it strikes me as weird. I mean, you can buy and resell your car, your furniture, your clothes, your bicycle,your house, you name it and none of these affected industries are complaining. (or at least I never heard of it) So why should this be different for games? Again, I'm not the only one to think like that. People are used to have certain rights with "their bought" products and now $someone (thy publisher) declare that people don't have certain rights anymore. My guess is that they think like that "they are taking away a part of my freedom" So they get pissed and rebellious and stubbornly protest that and somehow I can understand, I have similar feelings about PC and drm software.
I think we should go down to Epic and find out how many of them own used cars or furniture. Should they not have gotten them because they didn't give the money to the people who made the product?
I have some observations I would like to share. I know they sound wacky, but bear with me.
GOOD GAMES SELL WELL.
GOOD MUSIC SELLS WELL.
I dunno about you guys, but 'pirating' music actually opens my eyes to new and better music, and if I like it enough I will go out and buy it. It's pretty much the same with games.
GOOD GAMES SELL WELL.
GOOD MUSIC SELLS WELL.
I dunno about you guys, but 'pirating' music actually opens my eyes to new and better music, and if I like it enough I will go out and buy it. It's pretty much the same with games.
It's not a bad notion, games as services, but this creates a real problem in game resale, something Kross alluded to in his post.aBlackKnight said:
I believe what you're suggesting, aBK, is that the devs should support their customers and maintain an ongoing relationship with them. In game resales, a developer's only customer is the one who bought the game new. The person who bought the resold copy is not the customer of the developer, but only that of the retail shop because that's who received money for the game.
As such, a person who buys new can and should expect an ongoing relationship with the developer. A person who buys a game used has no such right to expect a relationship with a developer, as there was never a relationship from the beginning of the transaction. This means, there should be no expectation of customer support, updates, downloadable content, etc. Anything that comes from the developer, a used game buyer has no right to, as there is and never was a contract between developer and used game purchaser.
the second hand argument is bad. if anything, if second sales are really that bad for their company, it shows that the game has little replayability or people aren't happy with it in the first place. is that a fault of the customer? no. it's the fault of the people who worked on it, who hyped it etc. the golden rule of "the customer is always right" also applies here, however much you may dislike it.
the game industry is unfortunately full of people who can talk the talk but can't get a grip around their own package and figure things out by themselves. these are the same people that want to put out excuses and rants about why their game isn't selling or why they made their choice of platform for what it was. i consider these people next to useless, and if i had a company with people like that, i'm pretty sure it wouldn't take long for them to get fired. or better yet, i would make sure they wouldn't have been hired in the first place.
there are a few exceptions to this; valve is a good example. their prediction with what the steam system would solve and become a few years in advance became what really drove them above other companies (without taking the quality of games into account). while steam most likely is not piracy free, i'd wager it is much harder to pirate from steam than to pirate any other PC game.
the game industry is unfortunately full of people who can talk the talk but can't get a grip around their own package and figure things out by themselves. these are the same people that want to put out excuses and rants about why their game isn't selling or why they made their choice of platform for what it was. i consider these people next to useless, and if i had a company with people like that, i'm pretty sure it wouldn't take long for them to get fired. or better yet, i would make sure they wouldn't have been hired in the first place.
there are a few exceptions to this; valve is a good example. their prediction with what the steam system would solve and become a few years in advance became what really drove them above other companies (without taking the quality of games into account). while steam most likely is not piracy free, i'd wager it is much harder to pirate from steam than to pirate any other PC game.