Escape to the Movies: Ender's Game

Amir Kondori

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Coruptin said:
eck, just reading the synpsis of the book is enough to make me cringe, even now. the super miracle caucasian genius boy genre is just not my cup of tea
If you read the book the "genius boys" are not just Caucasian. I think a lot of people have read about Card's Mormon influenced beliefs about gay marriage and have let that inform their opinion of his works which they have not read.

His books contain diverse casts of characters, with many ethnic, racial, and cultural backgrounds. His works generally cover themes of inclusiveness and learning to understand and live with other people and other cultures. The books are great and you are doing yourself a disservice by dismissing them out of hand.
 

Amir Kondori

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HardkorSB said:
LysanderNemoinis said:
So it's okay to like his movies! But Orson Scott Card isn't overly fond of gay people (but hasn't physically hurt anyone, just their feelings), and that's horrible.
Actually he gave tons of money and support to anti-gay organisations and he still continues to do so.
And? He didn't write the movie, he didn't direct the movie, he got paid some chunk of change for the rights. I understand if people want to boycott this movie but don't think you are hurting Orson Scott Card by doing so, you are not, he has already seen his money for this project.

While I completely disagree with his views on gay marriage his books have some great themes and actually I have a hard time reconciling his views on gay marriage with the messages contained in his books.

As far as the movie goes, it was a decent adaptation but really lacked some core things that made the book as great as it is. That book was all about relationships, the relationship between Ender and his siblings, the relationship between Ender and his Battle School classmates, between him and Colonel Graff, between him and the Buggers. To fit into a 2 hour running time yet still hit all the major story beats they had to gloss over a lot of that stuff and I think the movie suffered heavily for it.

Of course having read all the books in this series I could fill in the blanks, but I couldn't help but feel audience members who have not read the books were missing out on half the experience.
 

MatsVS

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Ryan Hughes said:
Love your profile picture. Suikoden forever.

To a certain extent, you are right. Mr. Card is not just an opponent of gay rights, he actively tries to undermine them, while making baseless and frankly disturbing accusations about homosexuals. Basically, he implies they are a threat, showing just how much he is projecting in the process.

However, are you certain that shaming him is the best course of action? I understand your anger, but were I to outright condemn and shame Mr. Card, then I would be forced to shame and condemn people like my own parents as well, or become a hypocrite. Honestly, I think we are on the brink of a generational shift in gay rights, and any money or effort given to opposing those rights will simply be in vain and have little to no effect. Card is a Mormon, but even most of the Mormons I have met support gay marriage and think it damages their religion to focus on bigotry. Really, ever since DOMA was struck, it is now virtually impossible to stop many states from allowing gay marriage, as well as inheritance and other rights.

Personally, what I think is best is to reach out to people and try to show them that homophobia is baseless and in vain. Sure, maybe we would never convince Card of that, but what about his fellow Mormons who would see him be approached with an open hand, rather than attacked outright? What about the next generation? do we really want them to believe that what we want is full agreement or social ostracization?
Suikoden <3 indeed! :p

98% of the time, I'd agree with you, but I honestly believe we've taken civil discourse as far as we can. People who aren't swayed by the scientific fact that the queer life isn't inherently unhealthy or wrong or anything like that aren't going to change their mind just because we're nice to them. As a community, the world has more or less decided that we're shaming, say, racists and such, and I don't see why this should be any different. These are people who are immoral, and are actively doing their best to stand in the way of happiness for a substantial portion of the human race. Some by influencing the political process, some by using slurs, some by physically hurting queer people. So to hell with them, and let them rot in our wake as we move on to a better world for relevant people.

But yeah... Your point about your parents is an interesting one, and perhaps a less a direct approach is perhaps called for in that case. All these things are contextual, after all, and I don't think doing so would be hypocritical at all.
 

Frozengale

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Honestly I think it boils down to this:

If you've read the book, then the movie is amazing.

If you haven't read the book, then the movie is mediocre at best.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Eh, there's just no way a big-budget popcorn movie was going to be faithful to a book like Ender's Game. Ender's Game, while there are plenty of genuinely interesting action segments and the universe is rich with history, is just too cerebral to effectively adapt it into a movie AND sell it to EVERYONE.
 

Axolotl

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Jedisolo75 said:
Axolotl said:
Ryan Hughes said:
I agree with Bob that we should try our best to separate the artist from their art when it comes to politics. Artists are often eccentric people, and this is sometimes the source of their talent. Mr. Card may very well be a homophobic and bigoted person, with strong militaristic leanings, however, this does not diminish the book in my opinion.

Look, Card isn't even the worst. On the other end of the spectrum, Oscar Wilde -for all his brilliance- likely hired 16-year old boy prostitutes. Dostoyevsky wrote 'Brothers Karamazov,' one of the most brilliant works of its time, but was also likely at least a mild anti-Semite. T.S. Elliot and Ezra Pound were two of the greatest poets of the 20th century, but were also sympathetic with Nazism, even after the holocaust became apparent. (Though, in their defense, they both voluntarily committed themselves to mental asylums, so they probably knew they didn't have it all together.) I could go on and on. Even if their politics are not messed up, great authors are often addicts, and not to be emulated.

On and on. And soon, we would be left with very few authors to read, inspire, and to make us think. It is tremendously sad that Card makes the statements he does, but the answer is not to mirror his intolerance with our own, but to tolerate him for who is his, rather than ostracizing him.
There's a big difference between Card and Wilde, Pound, Elliot, Dostoyevsky. And it's that he's alive and funding hate groups while they're all dead. If I buy a volume of the Cantos then I won't be supporting fascism, If I go see a performance of The Importance of Being Earnest I won't be funding paedophilia on the other hand the more I consume Card's work the more resources and reach I'm giving him to spread his hate.
is

Does that mean that when he's dead I can buy all of his books, or should I avoid that because his kids might be bigots too? Do I have to wait until they're dead? How long until it's ok?
When the people receiving the money from the sales aren't the heads of hate groups.

This isn't particularly difficult or complicated, don't knowingly fund hate groups.

Enders Game is an undeniable classic, and I love a lot of his other books. By reading them I've never seen any indication that he hates gay people, although he obviously does, and his books helped me out a lot when I was in high school and didn't fit in well.
That's great, seriously helping to provide meaning a guidance is one of the best things literature can do. However please understand that Card's current writing and activism (which he is fully committed too) is directly working to make life much harder for people who already have difficulty in to high school and society in general. Also understand that by defending and promoting his work you are helping him do that.

I get not fitting in and finding comfort in books I really do but having a sense of what it's like to not fit in and be pushed outside social circles should help you understand why we can't tolerate hatemongers who try and push ideologies of repression and rejection of suffering groups.

Also, whether you like it or not Card is already rich, you aren't hurting him a bit by not going to this movie, but you might be hurting the careers of others that worked on this movie that aren't terrible people.
Just because he's rich Yes Card is rich and famous, that doesn't mean we should help him become more rich and famous.

As for other people who worked on the film? Maybe their careers will suffer, I hope not but at the end of the day I don't owe them a ticket sale. I'm not depriving them of anything I don't also deprive of every other film I don't go and see for any other reason and I don't see the majority of films that come out either because I'm too busy or because it's not of a genre that interests me or maybe the trailer looked bad. All of these a valid reasons to not see a film and they all strike me as worse reasons than not seeing it because it's ties to the leader of a hate group.
 

Ryan Hughes

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MatsVS said:
Suikoden <3 indeed! :p

98% of the time, I'd agree with you, but I honestly believe we've taken civil discourse as far as we can. People who aren't swayed by the scientific fact that the queer life isn't inherently unhealthy or wrong or anything like that aren't going to change their mind just because we're nice to them. As a community, the world has more or less decided that we're shaming, say, racists and such, and I don't see why this should be any different. These are people who are immoral, and are actively doing their best to stand in the way of happiness for a substantial portion of the human race. Some by influencing the political process, some by using slurs, some by physically hurting queer people. So to hell with them, and let them rot in our wake as we move on to a better world for relevant people.

But yeah... Your point about your parents is an interesting one, and perhaps a less a direct approach is perhaps called for in that case. All these things are contextual, after all, and I don't think doing so would be hypocritical at all.
You may be right in the end. But, I still hesitate to outright ban Card because, yes, he does remind me of my parents in a way.

Well, speaking of racism, homosexuality, and bigotry, I do believe James Baldwin said it best:
 
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Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
Nah, I'm actually serious.

I'm a big fan of species jingoism in fiction.

If they really didn't think killing humans was bad, they're too stupid to live.

Humanity, Fuck Yeah and such.
In that case, my gift to you: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html?tags=HUMANITY
 

WindKnight

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Iceklimber said:
Overall I think it's a great movie and the sci-fi effects of the Space Battles are really amazing. They are also in crystal clear high definition as opposed to, say, Thor 2 where a lot of the CGI had muddy textures or extensive use of Blur to cover up muddy textures or incorrect crash-physics (Thor 2's CGI effects are alright, just the ones in Ender's game are superior). The only thing I really disliked was how the Scene from the trailer with Jets fighting Alien battleships that you see in the trailer lasted only a few seconds, and was reused three times.

Also I don't quiet get the logic of Ender: He had no problem with doing training simulations for fights he thought were upcoming, then what was the big deal with actually fighting out the very battles he trained for?
Specifically, the result of the final 'simulation' is Ender cracking under the pressure and deciding to just fail in the worst way possible, which is to use their main weapon in a way he has been specifically forbidden to ever do (IE, fire a potentially planet killing weapon directly at a planet). In short, he commits genocide when he thinks he's just throwing a tantrum and failing a test.
 

Malty Milk Whistle

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BlumiereBleck said:
Are people seriously upset about the author? Still? That's like not buying Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels' The Communist Manifesto, or Machiavelli's The Prince just because they're dicks doesn't mean you should deny yourself from purchasing literature and learning from the experience.
'Aight, apart from the fact that The Prince is a satire (or close to and any character Lord Vetinari is based on cannot be a dick.) The Communist Manifesto isn't necessarily a evil book (merely somewhat odd in it's ideology)and is more of a anti-dick book (power to the workers and all that jazz). Also, comparing those two to the cesspit that is Mien Kampf (I'm not even talking about the content being despicable, though it surely is, that book is just terribly written, whether you're reading it in german or english) is a little silly.

And it's not so much that people aren't open to learning new things (I can't believe I just typed that) it's more that they don't want to give money to a man who openly donates to anti-LGBT groups. I myself didn't want to buy his books, but did want to read them, so I borrowed a friends dog-eared copy and enjoyed it (though the sequels were just....eh)
 

l3o2828

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Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
So it sounds like I'm going to completely adore this movie.

I've always felt that since the twist is one of the most well known in fiction, right up there with The Sixth Sense, the best way to play it would be to make it a surprise for Ender, but not the audience.

And I'm rather happy they got rid of the Earth stuff. His cartoonishly evil brother taking over the world via internet forums was completely silly in the book and it would have been silly on film.

I'm also glad they did away with the majority of the whining after the victory. The dirty xeno insect scum deserved every shot fired and if some humans were lost, so be it. After all, the only good bug is a dead bug.
And then we have some one who OBVIOUSLY did not read the book.

But whatever, I'm still watching this film, simply because the book was really good for me, and i actually read it a few months ago for the first time.
 

cricket chirps

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Coruptin said:
eck, just reading the synpsis of the book is enough to make me cringe, even now. the super miracle caucasian genius boy genre is just not my cup of tea
This is actually something the movie gets all wrong. In the book ender is NOT some miracle or "THE ONLY ONE!" (the damn movie keeps saying), he is no better than ANY of his classmates and it could really be any of them that save the world. That is the premise of the book. who knows why they thought changing that for the movie was a good thing :/
 

cricket chirps

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Frozengale said:
Honestly I think it boils down to this:

If you've read the book, then the movie is amazing.

If you haven't read the book, then the movie is mediocre at best.
Did you mean that the other way around?

Frankly I try not to be too critical of film adaptations of other media, but....there is just one mistake in this that was so heinous I can't except it. "Ender may be the only one who can save the human race" is the way the movie decided to look at it. Which is dumb and cliché, but in the book Ender was nothing special, in fact he seemed to be one of the worst candidates as he was clearly mentally unstable, and anyone at the school could have been the savior.

I just do not get this decision change for the movie. It just sets the whole thing in the wrong light. :(
 

sewingrose

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ben---neb said:
I never realised the bar for being a "horrible human being" was so low.

Most horrible human beings I would name have killed thousands or committed some crime. All Card has done is disagree with the prevailing opinion on sexuality. Hardly a crime against humanity.
I didn't realize you had to have killed someone to qualify for the title of "horrible human being", instead of you know acting like one. It's not like that's a description that can fit lots of assholes in the world.

cerebus23 said:
It is a free country and people have the right to be as crazy ignorant as they like, they have the right to pretty much say w/e short of inciting people to riot. As long as he is not physically harming people, perpertrating genocide, and the like he should be allowed to do as he pleases.
He does have the right to do that, and I have the right to call him a horrible human being, amongst other words, and refuse to see this movie based on his connection to the film.

Alek_the_Great said:
So the author said some negative things about homosexuals and that basically makes him the worst person ever? Unless he's calling for them to be killed, I don't see how that makes someone "King Asshole".
So if someone is saying I'm bi because I went "through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse," I can't call him an asshole unless he is advocating for my death?

Jacco said:
When the fuck did it become horrible for people to hold different opinions?

Just because YOU disagree with Card's politics doesn't make them wrong. Nor does it make your right. If he gives money to "anti-gay" organizations, then that's his prerogative. Go give your money to pro-gay ones.

I am seriously tired of this way of thinking. For supposedly being the more "open minded," the pro-gay/left/whatever side tends to be very hostile to dissenting opinions.
He is free to give his money to anti-gay groups. And I am free to call him horrible for it and refuse to give him money by seeing this film. And I'm sorry, I am not going to be "open minded" to a dissenting opinion which states that I am less of a person, and that I shouldn't have the ability to potentially marry someone that I love.

It's my choice as a consumer to not support him or his work for views I find abhorrent. The fact this movie evidently sucks has no impact on my decision to not watch it. Just as it is your right to watch it, it's my right to refuse to do so.

Card is a horrible person, and asshole, and many other terms. The fact that worse people exist in this world doesn't lessen Card's actions or mean he's not an asshole.

Will I feel differently at another point? Probably, but that will only come after Card's death and the end of his abilities to donate money to organizations I find repugnant. I am a fan of Lovecraft after all, but I recognize the racist and problematic views his stories have, but I can enjoy them in spite of that, and me buying his books won't contribute to a racist organization.

(Yes I have read Ender's Game, I got it from the library when I was younger and before I knew of Card's views. I enjoyed it, but I agree with Bob's opinion on how the movie was probably not the best way to adapt the material.)
 

Verlander

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Orson Scott Card has terrible opinions, but he's hardly this super villain everyone is trying to make him out to be. There are far worse people out there.

As for Polanski... ugh, same old argument. I don't believe the charges to be more than statutory rape, many people don't believe that stuff. When there are so many sickening people out there, soapboxing about two of the "average dickheads" seems like a waste of time.
 
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Thunderous Cacophony said:
Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
Nah, I'm actually serious.

I'm a big fan of species jingoism in fiction.

If they really didn't think killing humans was bad, they're too stupid to live.

Humanity, Fuck Yeah and such.
In that case, my gift to you: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html?tags=HUMANITY
Ah yes, I know those archives very very well.

Thank you for reminding me of them again.

l3o2828 said:
Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
So it sounds like I'm going to completely adore this movie.

I've always felt that since the twist is one of the most well known in fiction, right up there with The Sixth Sense, the best way to play it would be to make it a surprise for Ender, but not the audience.

And I'm rather happy they got rid of the Earth stuff. His cartoonishly evil brother taking over the world via internet forums was completely silly in the book and it would have been silly on film.

I'm also glad they did away with the majority of the whining after the victory. The dirty xeno insect scum deserved every shot fired and if some humans were lost, so be it. After all, the only good bug is a dead bug.
And then we have some one who OBVIOUSLY did not read the book.

But whatever, I'm still watching this film, simply because the book was really good for me, and i actually read it a few months ago for the first time.
I don't know why you say that.

I did in fact read it and I thought it was mostly great.

What part of my opinion do you find heinous that it could only come from someone ignorant of the source material?
 

spiffleh

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The worst part is that I feel like the people who went to see the movie without reading the book and who got curious enough to read the book will have the written experience ruined for them. This is probably one of the only cases where I would insist someone read the books first. Le sad.