Escorts Aren't Free
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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If time has taught us anything, it's that escort missions are a very fine line to dice, and basing a whole game around them will probably be a failure. Basing a mission around them is often bad enough.
Can it be done? Yeah, but to mirror Yahtzee's sentiment on Duke Nukem Forever, it's not so much it can't be done as it probably shouldn't.
Now, Amy looked like an idea I'd like to try, until I saw how poorly executed it was. But that was really no surprise, and there should be little surprise to anyone with pattern recognition.
Can it be done? Yeah, but to mirror Yahtzee's sentiment on Duke Nukem Forever, it's not so much it can't be done as it probably shouldn't.
Now, Amy looked like an idea I'd like to try, until I saw how poorly executed it was. But that was really no surprise, and there should be little surprise to anyone with pattern recognition.
Does anyone remember an escort quest in the original Fable? It involved a boy lost in a cave. You only had to pass through like three small areas to leave but even that was tough. If you've played it, you know what I mean. RAGE QUIT!
She's also pretty capable with a gun but she can die as well. Although you have to be pretty bad at the game or incredibly negligent of her wellbeing for this to happen.
In fact that mechanic would probably work for an entire game. Gives a nice way for the otherwise silent protagonist to have a voice of sorts. You could drop the kid to go scrabbling about for ammo and what-not in a kind of risk/reward sort of thing. Kinda like Bioshock 2 then I guess.
Damn, now I want to go play Metro 2033!
Alyx is a very good example actually. I got so used to her being with me in Episode 1 that hated the parts in Episodes 1 and 2 when she wasn't around! Much like Yorda in Ico, she gave me a reason to move forward in the game because I actually cared about her. Then again, I cared about pretty much every damn NPC in those games!UnrealCanine said:
She's also pretty capable with a gun but she can die as well. Although you have to be pretty bad at the game or incredibly negligent of her wellbeing for this to happen.
Wow, yeah I'd forgotten all about that! That kind of threw me when it popped up because it was so different from the rest of the game. The kid could have easily been annoying but I found his cheery attitude quite refreshing considering all the shit that was going on around him.Susurrus said:
In fact that mechanic would probably work for an entire game. Gives a nice way for the otherwise silent protagonist to have a voice of sorts. You could drop the kid to go scrabbling about for ammo and what-not in a kind of risk/reward sort of thing. Kinda like Bioshock 2 then I guess.
Damn, now I want to go play Metro 2033!
I have to agree with RE4's Ashley being a good example of an escort mission. She was roughly as vulnerable as you were, but was smart enough to let you take the hits for the most part. And the "shoving her in a garbage bin mechanic" is oddly brilliant, and makes sense for that sort of game. The yelling was annoying, but she had the decency to be captured on several occasions to free you from the task for awhile (she's worse than Princess Peach).
I have to also second Alyx Vance. The only time she will ever die is if you legitimately try to get her killed or do nothing at all. You could accidentally toss explosives at her and she would probably survive. She was still able to be killed though, so she doesn't totally clean the battlefield on her own at least.
Sheva of RE5 was terrible, much more of a liability than even Ashley was. It didn't help that the inventory system was legitimately broken.
I have to also second Alyx Vance. The only time she will ever die is if you legitimately try to get her killed or do nothing at all. You could accidentally toss explosives at her and she would probably survive. She was still able to be killed though, so she doesn't totally clean the battlefield on her own at least.
Sheva of RE5 was terrible, much more of a liability than even Ashley was. It didn't help that the inventory system was legitimately broken.
About Alyx Vance...
Remember that bit in episode 2, where she had just been brought back from the brink of death and you had to cross an antlion-infested plains area?
Valve changed Alyx's behaviour during that part, while in development, because she originally dragged herself along at a pace that you would expect from somebody who sports a fresh perforated line across their torso and this apparently aggravated playtesters to the point they developed a sense of disdain for the character.
Seems incredibly unfair, I feel -- I'd like to see /their/ performance under the same circumstances and there is something mismatched about having healthy distance to the story and holding gameplay above characters, yet projecting gameplay quibbles onto said characters.
Anyway; A change for the better was made and in the final product Alyx will rest at each safe spot, but steel herself for a determined sprint to the next one.
Of course; This is a developer who playtests to a fault and is not squeamish about tearing out their most precious ideas, even rather late in development, if they can not get them to do well in testing.
Remember that bit in episode 2, where she had just been brought back from the brink of death and you had to cross an antlion-infested plains area?
Valve changed Alyx's behaviour during that part, while in development, because she originally dragged herself along at a pace that you would expect from somebody who sports a fresh perforated line across their torso and this apparently aggravated playtesters to the point they developed a sense of disdain for the character.
Seems incredibly unfair, I feel -- I'd like to see /their/ performance under the same circumstances and there is something mismatched about having healthy distance to the story and holding gameplay above characters, yet projecting gameplay quibbles onto said characters.
Anyway; A change for the better was made and in the final product Alyx will rest at each safe spot, but steel herself for a determined sprint to the next one.
Of course; This is a developer who playtests to a fault and is not squeamish about tearing out their most precious ideas, even rather late in development, if they can not get them to do well in testing.
Akalabeth said:
I agree with these two mentions.UnrealCanine said:
Trip adds a lot to Enslaved, without being overtly whiny (ok maybe a little bit, but that's part of her personality). The sections where you have to come to her rescue are important and well done.
I don't know if Alyx technically qualifies as "escort" because she's nigh invincible and there isn't really any point where you have to protect/save her (that I remember at least). But yes, she's definitely one of the best examples of companion to date.
Well as long as the one I'm supposed doesn't do anything stupid. Like "help" me shoot bad guys by walking in front of me whilst I'm shooting... Or set up a surprise mess for me to clean up. Or die when I don't know where they are. Or worst of all when they are "hard" an pushes you around bu you can't make them move...
Had to many times where I'm in cover and then a friendly NPC I'm supposed to escort gets up to my cover and pushes me out in the free where, well I usually die... A big thank you to the game studios makes those "it can push you around, bu you can no push them around" NPC by he way....
Didn't really consider the companion cube an escort mission but now when I read it yea that was a escort mission. But if you somehow manged to screw up it was your own fault and not that some programmer made a "bad" NPC so it's hard to get annoyed at anything else than your self...
And can Alyx in HL2 actually die? I haven't managed to get her killed so far...(that I can remember anyhow)
Had to many times where I'm in cover and then a friendly NPC I'm supposed to escort gets up to my cover and pushes me out in the free where, well I usually die... A big thank you to the game studios makes those "it can push you around, bu you can no push them around" NPC by he way....
Didn't really consider the companion cube an escort mission but now when I read it yea that was a escort mission. But if you somehow manged to screw up it was your own fault and not that some programmer made a "bad" NPC so it's hard to get annoyed at anything else than your self...
And can Alyx in HL2 actually die? I haven't managed to get her killed so far...(that I can remember anyhow)
"... I realized that in a lot of cases there wouldn't be a game at all, not when escorts are supposed to be one of the central challenges."
Okay, Yatzee, WHAT IS A GAME TO YOU? You hint at a game needing some challenge or goal or whatever, but it's confusing. To me, a video game is a projection (usually on an electronic screen) of some plane of existence that is influenced by the player's/players' movements. Therefore, Minecraft is a game under my definition, even without The End and its ending text and credits.
Okay, Yatzee, WHAT IS A GAME TO YOU? You hint at a game needing some challenge or goal or whatever, but it's confusing. To me, a video game is a projection (usually on an electronic screen) of some plane of existence that is influenced by the player's/players' movements. Therefore, Minecraft is a game under my definition, even without The End and its ending text and credits.
That's my thinking as well. Considering how much people complain about escort missions, I suspect developers' main reason for continuing to make them is that they believe it can be done right, and they want to challenge themselves. Thing is, though, most developers today have a hard enough time getting the tried-and-true game mechanics to work properly, so they probably shouldn't be pushing themselves for its own sake.Zachary Amaranth said:
I'd like to note, yet again, Alyx from Half-Life. I think she had a shitton of health but she was still killable, if you just kind of stood around like an idiot. But she was a pretty good shot on her own, though she was only half-an-escort. It's been a while, but I think if anything she escorts -you- to a couple of places.
It's been a while >_<
It's been a while >_<
Mass Effect 1 & 2 deserve special mention I think. You are constantly escorting two of the stupidest (meatshields have different personalities but the same combat training) A.Is I have ever seen. They will fire at the ground hoping to hit an enemy on a different level, they will stand in the open getting shredded by enemy fire waiting for someone hiding behind a crate to stand up and they always break my line of fire when I am about to knock off an enemy with my sniper rifle.
And they wonder why I only use the medi-gel when my own health is at critical levels.
And they wonder why I only use the medi-gel when my own health is at critical levels.
Alyx does NOT qualify as an escort if she is incredibly hard to kill, otherwise most of Metro 2033's companiosn count (as most pf them are actually killable, it's just incredibly hard to do so).
Which leaves Valve with L4D and the 'companions'. Dear christ, they are the worst I have ever seen, their only redeeming traits are infinite ammo, and aimbotting occasionally.
Which leaves Valve with L4D and the 'companions'. Dear christ, they are the worst I have ever seen, their only redeeming traits are infinite ammo, and aimbotting occasionally.
I think the ultimate in perfect escort quest is Abe's Odyssee/Exoddus. There was something very satisfying about sneaking up to those mudokens, whispering 'Follow me' and having them tiptoe after you in synchrony - and the satisfaction of chanting, opening a portal, and having the whole bunch of them jump in, was perfect. In general, I think Abe's Odyssee remains the greatest game I've ever played, the perfect mix of story, character and gameplay.
[Edit]I said 'perfect' a lot there, didn't I? My English teacher would've given me a slap for that.
[Edit]I said 'perfect' a lot there, didn't I? My English teacher would've given me a slap for that.
In all fairness, I think its lazy programming as well. I find it annoying that you/your escort/your NPC support can run out of ammo but the enemy seems to magically have infinite ammo. What the fuck is that all about? I realize that increasing difficulty is most easily done through enemies being bullet sponges and you taking greater damage and being limited in terms of weapons but I still think its a cop out. In this day and age, they should spend more on good AI and less on pretty graphics.hermes200 said:
Here is a case of AI done tooooo well. We (a friend of mine and myself) tested this theory. The game will actually complete itself if you die at the end. Say what?Hat Man said:
Personally I hate many escort missions. Dead Rising (the first one) was terrible. They acted dumb and got killed and wouldn't stay put.
In actuality, the concept is good but the AI has to be able to match up with the skill of the person playing the game. If the person you are escorting is too dumb or too good then the challenge of the scenario is rendered moot.
Seriously, no mention of Yoshi's Island? That game was made up entirely of one escort mission. It was well designed so it only punished you if you screwed up, and even then you had some time to correct your mistake before you got the game over. Plus, it was the last game in the Mario franchise that actually felt new and interesting.
Metro 2033
the majority of it is an escort quest (there is an NPC who, if killed, causes game over). But more often than not, they have better equipment and experience. They rarely die, and it drives home the point that you are a rookie in this world, not an experience veteran. When you are alone, you feel the need for another gun to help you, but it isn't there. It works to improve the setting, instead of focusing on keeping the companion alive.
the majority of it is an escort quest (there is an NPC who, if killed, causes game over). But more often than not, they have better equipment and experience. They rarely die, and it drives home the point that you are a rookie in this world, not an experience veteran. When you are alone, you feel the need for another gun to help you, but it isn't there. It works to improve the setting, instead of focusing on keeping the companion alive.