Everything You Know about Anime Is Wrong

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Otaku World Order

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FireAza said:
secretsantaone said:
Live action film is better used as a medium for more serious topics because, to be honest, people relate more to a human face that a stylised one.
To quote Don Hertzfeldt (Rejected, Bitter Films, Everything Will Be OK):
Don Hertzfeldt said:
You could make a cartoon in crayons about a red square that falls in unrequited love with a blue circle, and there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house if you know how to tell a story.
secretsantaone said:
Also you forgot Pixar.
No, I didn't forget Pixar. In my opinion, they make fancy tech demos, while the stories are not too different from all the many other family films that have been made before. A controversial position perhaps, since Pixar films are beloved by many, but I don't really see them pushing the medium and trying something really different.

Perhaps that's just bitterness at them being almost solely responsible for the popularity of 3D CG animation, which has caused all other American animation studios to abandon 2D in favour of the more popular 3D. Personally, I feel 3D has little artistry compared to 2D, where you have to do everything by hand instead of a computer doing all the art. And I'm saying that as someone who studied 3D animation.
I do love the artisty and craft of 2D animation, especially Sudio Ghibli's work.

That being said, Pixar did bring a lot to the table and it helped that when they first came onto the scene Disney's 2D animated features had been in a slump for some time and people were more open to the newer 3D animation.

And let's face it, there was some pretty half-assed 2D animation going around at the time. Quest for Camelot, I'm looking at you.
 

FireAza

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secretsantaone said:
And how many stories do you know where an old man flies his house to South America with a young boy scout?
Ah, I thought you'd bring up, uh, Up. I haven't actually seen it, but from the looks of things, the concept is unique, but the story itself will probably run the same moral lesson tropes that most Pixar movies have. But it would be rather hypocritical of me to judge without actually seeing it, wouldn't it? Although I would be able to speak with some authority, since I've seen every Pixar movie except for Up, WALL-E and Ratatouille (yes, this means I've seen Cars 2). Either way, I've got a Blu-ray copy of Up right here, shall watch it now. At the very least, I know it will look pretty ;)

Otaku World Order said:
I do love the artisty and craft of 2D animation, especially Sudio Ghibli's work.

That being said, Pixar did bring a lot to the table and it helped that when they first came onto the scene Disney's 2D animated features had been in a slump for some time and people were more open to the newer 3D animation.

And let's face it, there was some pretty half-assed 2D animation going around at the time. Quest for Camelot, I'm looking at you.
I just think it's sad that studios would completely abandon 2D animation simply because the general public likes 3D better. Especially in the case of Disney, since they practically INVENTED 2D animation.
 

MaxwellEdison

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So, nothing I knew was disproven :p

I think the internet, *especially* this site, knows anime isn't for pedophiles. The strongest I've ever seen a non-troll on this site come out against anime is just "I don't like the art style.", and on the internet, "Wait, only little girls like that."

The dangerous/really stupid stereotypes only exist in the minds of people who, most likely, have never seen a picture of an anime character (except the loli they've watched, cuz, y'know, social conservatives. I'm contractually obliged to make a hypocrite joke.)
 

MammothBlade

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Great article, but nothing I didn't know already.


FireAza said:
That being said, Pixar did bring a lot to the table and it helped that when they first came onto the scene Disney's 2D animated features had been in a slump for some time and people were more open to the newer 3D animation.

And let's face it, there was some pretty half-assed 2D animation going around at the time. Quest for Camelot, I'm looking at you.
I just think it's sad that studios would completely abandon 2D animation simply because the general public likes 3D better. Especially in the case of Disney, since they practically INVENTED 2D animation.[/quote]

Yeah, it is tragic. 2D animation is timeless, it will never become "obsolete". Maybe less popular with the so-called mainstream Western market, but there are still plenty of people who will watch it. Thankfully, Disney has pledged to release a traditional animated film every two years, since the release of the Princess and the Frog, so at least that talent base will not die out. Of course, this does not compare to the availability and diverse variety of anime. Though I think there would be a market for more serious western animation if studios but tried to break the mould.
 

secretsantaone

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FireAza said:
secretsantaone said:
And how many stories do you know where an old man flies his house to South America with a young boy scout?
Ah, I thought you'd bring up, uh, Up. I haven't actually seen it, but from the looks of things, the concept is unique, but the story itself will probably run the same moral lesson tropes that most Pixar movies have. But it would be rather hypocritical of me to judge without actually seeing it, wouldn't it? Although I would be able to speak with some authority, since I've seen every Pixar movie except for Up, WALL-E and Ratatouille (yes, this means I've seen Cars 2). Either way, I've got a Blu-ray copy of Up right here, shall watch it now. At the very least, I know it will look pretty ;)
WALL-E is another great one, the protagonist barely speaks and most of his emotions and thoughts are shown through his gestures and expressions.
 

FireAza

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Well, I've just finished watching Up. I really liked the movie at the beginning when it was the life story of the old guy, it was quite touching. But then it turned into the usual Pixar wacky adventure and cartoony villains. Ah well, can't win 'em all. Still, SQUIRREL! Also amusing that the Doberman with the broken translator sounded like Foamy, who is a squirrel :p

MaxwellEdison said:
So, nothing I knew was disproven :p

I think the internet, *especially* this site, knows anime isn't for pedophiles. The strongest I've ever seen a non-troll on this site come out against anime is just "I don't like the art style.", and on the internet, "Wait, only little girls like that."

The dangerous/really stupid stereotypes only exist in the minds of people who, most likely, have never seen a picture of an anime character (except the loli they've watched, cuz, y'know, social conservatives. I'm contractually obliged to make a hypocrite joke.)
Thankfully, I haven't heard the paedophile joke come up very often on this forum, but many times I've seen threads on anime posted in this forum where the core topic is pretty damned inaccurate and ignorant to boot.
 

UberNoodle

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I see a lot of posts here dragging the same old 'anime is pedo' line. Are there some anime which have actually underage kids in sexual situations? Yes. Are they a mainstay of the medium? No. Are they even all that well known in Japan? No.

What is happening though, with alarming ignorance and double standards, are accusations of 'phantom pedophilia', ie, assumptions that a girl drawn without large breasts and a (Western-centric) ideal of adultness, is somehow a ersatz for pedophilia.

As a decade long resident of Japan, I can tell you that I STILL cannot estimate a woman's age here. I have met 25 year olds who could easily be highschool girls after school. It's not about festishism. It's just a very typical combination of common body types, shapes and fashion. Japanese woman generally heap more care on their skin and hair than I have seen any other nationality of women do. They even go so far as to avoid the sun so as to be pretty wrinkle free at even 30 years old.

When I see a cherubic female character in anime or manga, I don't see undercover jailbait. I see half the young women on the train, in the street and in my place of work. Honestly, the ignorance and arrogance by so many people online today astounds me. When did the young of the English speaking world because so incredibly insular and sometimes, downright xenophobic?

Has anyone stopped to consider that perhaps small breasted women with no curves and puppy fat (which is a very large percentage of Japan's human population) 'look like kids' to you simply because that's not how women look or are idealised in YOUR country, and in YOUR country, probably all your comic heroines have breasts the size of watermelons and wear swimsuits everywhere they go. Is THAT a healthy outlook on women?

As for the large eyes, I reject the assertion that this is *because of* Disney art. I reject it as very hopeful America-centrism. Large eyes in Japanese art have existed before Atom graced his first cover, before Mickey Mouse set out to conquer the world. Large eyes in Japan is part of a cultural ideal of the following:

1) YOUTH (Kids here have such bright and wide eyes.)
2) INNOCENCE (NO, stop those dirty thoughts. WIDE EYES to better see the world.)
3) BEAUTY (you want what you can't have.)
4) SELF-EXPRESSION (With large eyes, emotions and inner processes can be shown.)
5) CUTENESS (Big eyes are KAWAII! Puppies have them, cats have them. Why not human characters?)

Even if early artists saw Disney's work and the eyes just clicked for them, the concept itself was not at all culturally alien. In fact, I am certain that the large eyes would have been just as logical to those artists as it was logical to Walt. Perhaps more so, due to the aforementioned deep cultural attitudes.

Are these eyes too big, though? And if they are, is that some offense to the rest of us real people with small, regular sized eyes?

Well, it amuses me that while anime art cops constant disparaging remarks from those aforementioned ignoramuses and xenophobes, Disney and the wealth of American animation which contains the same tradition, do not. Additionally, why is the size of the eyes so important when in the Japanese art, a face can suddenly transform into geometric shapes or just a couple of lines! Besides, who is offended by American artists drawing every hero and heroine with impossibly mascuine and feminine proportions and qualities respectively?

I don't know it became uncool to enjoy foreign animation, or rather *cool* to hate it, but the commentary and diatribes surrounding its almost constant disparagement are quite often to be filed in that box labeled 'Irrational', along with 'Mac vs PC', Iphone vs Android', Ps3 vs Xbox 360' and 'PC gaming vs the World*'

*I'm a PC gamer, incidentally. I don't agree with that attitude.

TheRightToArmBears said:
Anime is not a medium.

Animation is a medium.

A medium is a category of a work of art, as determined by its materials and methods of production. There is nothing to distinguish anime from other hand-drawn or computer animated animation. As far as I can tell anime is a group of genres that are actually fairly diverse that all originate in (or are influenced by) Japan.
Casual Shinji said:
Animation is a medium, anime is a genre within that medium. I'm sorry, but it simply is.
Actually you're only half right and only in a non-Japanese context. Here in Japan, people can and do refer to ALL TV and movie animation as 'anime' because the word is simply a contraction of the word 'animation'. The language is full of contractions. It's common practice. The only reason you three and everybody else it seems, think that 'anime' is a genre is *because* of what the OP was trying to say:

In the West, only a miniscule selection of the total output of animated content in Japan is ever released or represented there. Because 'amime' and 'manga' were turned into marketable labels and even brands, licensees certainly limit their acquisitions to suit the general public perception of what Japanese animation is. The thing is, here in Japan, whether it's TinTin or the new Hack movie; whether it's Dark Horse or Jump, its common for the terms 'anime' and 'manga' to apply, respectively.
 

Casual Shinji

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UberNoodle said:
Casual Shinji said:
Animation is a medium, anime is a genre within that medium. I'm sorry, but it simply is.
Actually you're only half right and only in a non-Japanese context. Here in Japan, people can and do refer to ALL TV and movie animation as 'anime' because the word is simply a contraction of the word 'animation'. The language is full of contractions. It's common practice. The only reason you three and everybody else it seems, think that 'anime' is a genre is *because* of what the OP was trying to say:

In the West, only a miniscule selection of the total output of animated content in Japan is ever released or represented there. Because 'amime' and 'manga' were turned into marketable labels and even brands, licensees certainly limit their acquisitions to suit the general public perception of what Japanese animation is. The thing is, here in Japan, whether it's TinTin or the new Hack movie; whether it's Dark Horse or Jump, its common for the terms 'anime' and 'manga' to apply, respectively.
Well, when people talk about "anime" 99,99% of the time they mean "animation originated from Japan".

And in that regard it definately has become a genre, and a terrible one at that.
 

Swiftkillz

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"Everything You Know about Anime Is Wrong"

No i know plenty and most of it is crap. Recycled regurgitated crap, seen one you have seen em all.


There are a handful of good and decent ones but it is not worth wading through all the crap to find them.
 

TheRightToArmBears

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UberNoodle said:
TheRightToArmBears said:
Anime is not a medium.

Animation is a medium.

A medium is a category of a work of art, as determined by its materials and methods of production. There is nothing to distinguish anime from other hand-drawn or computer animated animation. As far as I can tell anime is a group of genres that are actually fairly diverse that all originate in (or are influenced by) Japan.
The only reason you three and everybody else it seems, think that 'anime' is a genre is *because* of what the OP was trying to say:

In the West, only a miniscule selection of the total output of animated content in Japan is ever released or represented there. Because 'amime' and 'manga' were turned into marketable labels and even brands, licensees certainly limit their acquisitions to suit the general public perception of what Japanese animation is. The thing is, here in Japan, whether it's TinTin or the new Hack movie; whether it's Dark Horse or Jump, its common for the terms 'anime' and 'manga' to apply, respectively.
I think you missed part of my post. I didn't call anime a genre, I called it a collection of genres. To the wider world (or, at least, the west), 'anime' seems to be a collection of genres that are at least influenced by Japan. I guess what I'm trying to say is that anime basically doesn't exist. It's certainly not a medium separate from animation, and it's too broad to be a genre. A lot of people defending anime here are saying it must be a medium because it's not a genre, which simply isn't true.
 

FireAza

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UberNoodle said:
LOTS of great stuff there Noodle, great to hear someone who's lived in Japan for a long time chime in on the matter (why I never thought to go "hey guys! Maybe the reason why you guys think all anime characters look like little girls is because the standards of beauty for women is different from those in America?" I have no clue).

Going to disagree with you that Osamu Tezuka's style had no influence from America though (also, I'm not American, so there's no "very hopeful America-centrism" in my case :p). I've read multiple times that he was influenced by the cartoons of the time (Mickey Mouse, Betty Boop etc) and he apparently was a big fan of Duckberg comic book artist Carl Barks. In fact, he even wrote a postcard to him


But yeah, big eyes also have the qualities you mentioned that Japan adores. But it took a guy from Osaka with a medical degree for Japanese comics to go from this:


To this:
 

Samuel Goodall

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The Walking Dead has a child in it and I doubt very very much it is aimed at children... I rest my case good sir.
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Axolotl said:
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
ElPatron said:
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
By the way, 8 of the 13 images you posted picture little kids. Way to go.
Cartoons can't have kids in them?

wthamireading.jpg

EDIT: dont get me wrong, I'm not a fan of anime or manga either
Wait, I thought anime is not cartoon? Isnt that what the OP is arguing?

And yeah, a lot of western cartoons feature kids, but they are marketed to kids. With anime... Not so much. Lots of kids (or adults with childish proportion, as the OP put it) in animes aimed at men. Huh.
There's lots of kids in Live Action TV aimed at adults in the west, are you saying there shouldn't be or what exactly?
Name one Live Action TV series aimed at adults starring a child or an adult with extremely childish proportions in the main character role. Go.
 

Aeroastrix

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I can admit that BLEACH was the anime thaat hot me interested in the whole anime 'culture'
Though i can also agree that the fact that a lot of people associate anime as 'cheesy kiddy cartoons with squeeky voices and gigantic eyes' but those are only a sub-genre of animation that has been dubbed as the face of anime

The sad part is that many people can't look past that to see that there are some amazing anime's (most of them based off of mangas) that have amazing storylines that can rival a hollywood production
Both the original ghost in the shell movie and akira have mind blowing plots and were in a class all their ow, yet so many people don't watch these amazing pieces of ART, because, in their words, "Its anime"

Miyazaki's films also have such a great artistic value to them, going farther than the average cookie cutter cartoon formula

And as far as american animation being second to japanese animation
FALSE
I love many american animations just as much as I love japanese animation
The Boondocks
Archer
Family Guy/American Dad
Adventure Time (yeah I enjoy it)

So I can say I am an otaku, even though I already know that it has negative connotaion in japan (over there it means someone who is obsessed with a certain subject I.e. military otaku, car otaku)
But I applaud this post because this just might be the most straightforward, clear, rational, and even educational article, and if the 'sheep' read this, they might just change their minds

Btw: I hate naruto and if they do make a live akira movie, id probably go see it but it can't beat the original.....ever
 

Element Zero

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I, admittedly, fall victim to generalizations of anime. In general, I do not like it. I don't find the humor appealing, I don't like the art in most cases, it's just not my think.

What I -hate- are the things that actually -do- fall into the stereotypes, which I think is probably a much smaller percentage than I'm even aware of.

Not to say I have -never- liked -any- anime. I'm a huge fan of Paranoia Agent, and I enjoyed Akira. But saying that makes me feel like I'm saying something along the lines of, "I'm not racist because I have a black friend."
 

FireAza

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Aeroastrix said:
But I applaud this post because this just might be the most straightforward, clear, rational, and even educational article, and if the 'sheep' read this, they might just change their minds
Thanks for your kind words! I just hope that non anime fans also find it straight-forward, clear, rational and educational!

Aeroastrix said:
Adventure Time (yeah I enjoy it)
C'mon, EVERYONE loves Adventure Time :D

Element Zero said:
I, admittedly, fall victim to generalizations of anime. In general, I do not like it. I don't find the humor appealing, I don't like the art in most cases, it's just not my think.

What I -hate- are the things that actually -do- fall into the stereotypes, which I think is probably a much smaller percentage than I'm even aware of.

Not to say I have -never- liked -any- anime. I'm a huge fan of Paranoia Agent, and I enjoyed Akira. But saying that makes me feel like I'm saying something along the lines of, "I'm not racist because I have a black friend."
Well, as I've already said, not all anime share the same style of humor, or the same style of art.

Also, since you said you liked Paranoia Agent, for the love of God, go watch all of Satoshi Kon's other films, the man was a genius who was taken well before his time. In order, that's:
Perfect Blue
Millennium Actress
Tokyo Godfathers
Paprika


He also wrote the Magnetic Rose short in the Memories film, so watch that too. Tokyo Godfathers isn't psychological like the rest of his works, but it's probably one of my favourites since the story is so touching and the characters are very likeable, and it's funny to boot! Also, Paprika and Perfect Blue where part of the inspiration for the films Inception and Black Swan, so that's cool too.
 

Theo Rob

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Watch it, read it and like it, show it to me and I might like it to and if I don't that means its just not my thing.
That is one of my laws in life and it apply's to everything. just because I don't like the idea of high school of the dead doesn't mean I hate it but people are under the impression that when something is not your preference means you think its shit

This is just me though, Iv'e made it a thing of mine to not hate till I see it/play it/whatever. (despite the negeative vibes things like twilight and the forbidden skirim joke give out

that said i was unsure about most anime but Iv'e seen some personal gems:



 

FireAza

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Theo Rob said:
Samurai Champloo was stylish as hell, and Welcome to the N.H.K! had a great story, good choices :D

William Fleming said:
How are you not a featured writer on this site yet. Brilliant read.
Thanks a bunch! :D Do forum posts count for "featured writer" or do you actually need to be a writer for the site itself?
 

UberNoodle

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FireAza said:
UberNoodle said:
Going to disagree with you that Osamu Tezuka's style had no influence from America though (also, I'm not American, so there's no "very hopeful America-centrism" in my case :p). I've read multiple times that he was influenced by the cartoons of the time (Mickey Mouse, Betty Boop etc) and he apparently was a big fan of Duckberg comic book artist Carl Barks.
Thanks for the nice reply. I was expecting to meet with angry retorts from whoever bothered to reply. Is there a type of PTSD for forum users? I have it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that Tezuka wasn't inspired by Walt. What I was trying to say was that the large eyes were logical to Walt, not because he was some genius, but because he was a great, thoughtful and innovative artist. I guess that in today's Net world, people (and by that I mean the whole anti-anime/manga crusaders, many of whom probably giggle daily at the Encyclopedia Dramatica's entries for 'weaboo') tend to use that noted influence from Walt to Tezuka (and thereby Japanese comics and animation as a whole) as a means to diminish just how much Japan has completely personalised, innovated and OWNED their comic and animation production from the get go. On this very site, there's an article with the sensationalist and entirely disingenuous title, "How Walt Disney invented Anime". That's like saying, Jean Luc Goddard invented Japanese cinema. Granted, many of the greats from Japan were fans of French cinema, and the classic Japanese cinema aesthetic is in many ways closest to French than any other country, it also draws so much more from traditional theatre ideals and general cultural sensibilities towards emotional expression, Wabi-Sabi and what have you.

Anyway, I've enjoyed this thread! To celebrate, I rewatched Tokyo Godfathers. RIP Mr. Kon.

BTW, the DVD of Tezuka's Metropolis (as adapted and directed by Rintaro, one of the Old School, Tezuka Studios artists and animators) in your region may have an entertaining interview with Rintaro. He talks about how artists from his generation have a pencil in one hand and an eraser in the other, yet the 'young kids today' just churn out the art flawlessly, like aliens.

Interesting. A few of my students here in Japan are the same.
 

Primus1985

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Informative article, I who've been watching anime since the 1990's, already knew most of this but its good for the newbs ;)

I actually have something to say with reguards to anime being a medium, of course it is for one any one thats watched a few know that their are many genres in anime. However, maybe its just me, maybe im a bit jaded who knows, but its seems that many new(or just arriving) anime fall into the same category EX: Magical spirit school whose students are in the low teens(hell any school/academy setting) where the supporting cast shines but the lead is kinda dull.

Well I do like mostly action, sci-fi, and supernatural stuff but Ive expected more. Ive been wondering what anime thats come out in the past year that is worth watching over some of my favorites(Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Rorouni Kenshin, G Gundam, Wolfs Rain, Outlaw Star, Eureka Seven, EVA, xxxHolic etc...) and I cant think of anything recent that I can put as "Must watch, instant classic" The last new anime I watched was "Tiger&Bunny", a sci-fi superhero anime, it was the first in a long time that I thought had a unique twist on it.

Now I do like somewhat "normal" anime like Beck, but only if its done right and makes me laugh.

Am I wrong? Has anime decended into only a few genres or are their still many unique stories out there?