Evidence for evolution

[thraza]

if you want to figure out how to argue with a creationist check out zaunstar video (there mostly for creationist on the internet but most still applys to conversations in real life

 

[michael87cn]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.

I agree with your dad personally. I mean, if everything just randomly evolved, why is everything but humanity so perfect? We're supposedly more intelligent too. It all simply fits with Biblical records much more than man-devised theories.

Religion is bad, but the Bible isn't in my opinion. Many people don't seem to understand that you can believe in God in different ways than assembling in a building and believing what every random guy teaches.

That also said, I simply don't trust people enough to believe that they know the truth. I don't believe in the 'potential for humanity' to be superior to everything else, much to disagree with Gene Roddenberry (might have spelled his name wrong lol). People are flawed, egotistical beings that have to explain away everything and prove to themselves that they are the masters of whatever they wish. But time and time again... we learn how wrong we are and that we are NOT superior and that we do NOT have everything correct or explained. Decade after decade passes and what was 'fact' becomes 'fiction'. We have no more 'figured out' anything than our ancestors have, comparing the years 1012 to 2012. We are just as much in the dark as they. But much like they we think we are 'modern' 'civilized' and most sadly 'superior'. The truth is we are not.

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.

.....what? I hope I'm not being rude when I ask you this but, are you protestant? I didn't think that people still believe in that, because last I checked Catholicism has declared that evolution is real [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution#Pope_Benedict_XVI_and_today]

 

[thraza]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Zaunstar?blend=1&ob=video-mustangbase#p/u/107/S3Ip_vNt8sc
link to zaunstar video (forgot it in original post

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".

I think my brain just exploded. And then imploded.

Science is NOT a religion.

See here the main difference between science and religion.

The thing about religions is they are mortal. A thousand religions have come and died in the history of mankind, and so will yours. Science, by which i mean drawing conclusions from observation evidence and logic, has been around as long as man has reasoned. It is older than the oldest living religion and it isnt going anywhere. Because even if the entire world believes a crazy purple lampshade is the reason electricity works SOMEONE will ask "why", seems to me to be electrons. And THAT. Is science. Question EVERYTHING. Ask why, demand to see evidence. Do things breath? Require oxygen? How, look inside, test never take an answer without asking WHY or knowing or testing it.

Faith is thinking you know something without any proof by definition

Science is thinking something BECAUSE of proof by definition.

Science is the gateway to understanding and unwrapping our entire universe and why everything moves the way it does. If you argue all science is a lie then jump out your window, developed by guesswork, and land using gravity, developed by notscience apparently.

Science is NOT a religion because it requires NO faith. No suspencion of disbelief. Science will NEVER ask you to believe at all. Science asks you to look with your EYES at the test and say what you can see, then do it yourself and see if you can see the same thing. Religion is telling you the test shows god and to shut up and sit down.

Science is saying the wall to be left is white. Which it is. Because i just looked.

Religion asks me to believe a wall 2000 miles away is orange and purple. Which i dont know. Because no ones looked.

The bible has NO evidence. At all. Tell me WHAT fits with the bible exactly? The bit where all dinosaurs are lies, all cavemen are lies, all cave drawings are lies, the bit where the world is apparently only 3000 years old? These are all wrong. And yet the bible says them. My theory of evolution allows for them all perfectly, and i have fossels, DNA tracing, observation, tests on microbes, MRSA, finches, bone records, biological testing on mutation and genetics.

You have a book and a shit tonne of people desperately hunting for evidence for it.

I have a shit tonne of people gathering evidence and trying to decide what it means.

I think i know which one makes the most sense.

Citing the bible as evidence for anything is shakey because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

I mean as a moral compass, its a tad shakey, citing for the explanation of real world phenomina? Its so contradictory its impossible.

Religion has nothing to do with evolution anyway. Science isnt a religion, nor is evolution. Its just an observation. The bible can be teaching a good story without being a creationist.

 

[Nudu]

Well, natural selection is almost self-evident. Does he believe that offspring have traits similar to their parents? Does he believe that dead animals can't have children? There you go. As for evolution, I think among the more compelling evidence is to look at genes and see that they fold out pretty neatly in a family tree with animals closer to each other (such as chimpanzees and humans, horses and donkeys or lions and tigers) having a more similar DNA sequence than for example dolphins and scorpions.

I also wonder whether he understands evolution. If he was introduced to the concept by some religious authority with an agenda he may think of evolution as a duck evolving into a crocodile in tree generations with a crocoduck inbetween.

 

[Muspelheim]

Indeed, science is not a religion. It is not a spiritual institution, it's simply a way through which facts are collected, studied and the conclusions drawn thereof, before submitting them to be scrutinized and analyzed by other scientists. People don't gather together on a particular weekday to sing praise for Darwin or Einstein or other held in great reguard. There is no ancient texts containing any rules by which to live, filled with old tales that the reader is demanded to reguard as absolute truths.

It's actually rather telling that certain people wish for science, the accumulated knowledge thereof and the scientific method, to be downgraded into a religion...

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

You know, I remember some thread that someone mentioned "Escapist members are more open-minded and accepting then other communities". Man, was that utterly wrong. At least in this thread.

Ive discussed this topic quite a darn bit with a friend who heavily studies evolutionary theory. And the multiple times of 3+ hours that we have discussed this, neither of us have come to believe the other.

The only reason I can put out for that is whats been said a few times in this thread. Both are on shaky ground on being expressly PROVEN scientifically(And depending on what side your on, one more than the other).

Ive also learned not to even try to discuss this issue with anyone other than close friends(FYI here, I am a believer in Creationism), especially with most of the people in this thread, because they have the mentality of "if you don't believe, your an ignorant, stupid, bone headed, idiot human being because you don't believe the theory that I believe". And don't try to get me about the 'theory' part, because when it boils down to it, it is a theory (even in Psychology, which is what I heavily study), not expressly proven(Who has looked over the earth the last 2 billion years(using science's time here, which I dont have a problem with, nor believe)and seen all this in person? Come forward an ill change my views).

So, anyone who believes in evolution, great, im glad you believe in something, even though I dont believe in it. I may have problems with it, but I dont have problems with you. If you believe in Creationism, great, I do to.

I don't believe in evolution. I accept it as fact.

 

[Burs]

There was an interesting mass experiment in the UK where we had to count how many common snails we found, where we found them and how many stripes they had on their shells, the results proved that the common snail species had a specialised shell pattern for the immediate area where they where in and was in effect Evolution in action ^.^

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well look Evolution is a theory but does not mean it isn't true. It isn't absolute fact as in Evolution is this completely unchanging thing and we have it 100% correct as we are still learning some of the ins and outs of it but we have a general idea. That is what a scientific fact is.

We take evolution as true until we find something better that proves it wrong but sometimes scientists do get in the way of scientific progress by trying to hold on to out dated and antiquated theories. Although this only happens if there is something that seems wild and out there but they do come to be accepted in time. Although that is not an issue with evolution.

Also I think if Catholicism accepts Evolution(granted not the same as Scientific Evolution) I think your Dad can.

 

[DaJoW]

Here [http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=20262] is a thread on a forum of a game I used to play which goes into a fair bit of detail about the evidence for evolution. It's not complete, but it is quite extensive (note: I did not write this).

 

[vivster]

ask him when he thinks this intelligent design took place
then present to him evidence that there were creatures on earth long before the date he named

the theory of intelligent design always crumbles when it's correlated with time

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.

I agree with your dad personally. I mean, if everything just randomly evolved, why is everything but humanity so perfect? We're supposedly more intelligent too. It all simply fits with Biblical records much more than man-devised theories.

Religion is bad, but the Bible isn't in my opinion. Many people don't seem to understand that you can believe in God in different ways than assembling in a building and believing what every random guy teaches.

That also said, I simply don't trust people enough to believe that they know the truth. I don't believe in the 'potential for humanity' to be superior to everything else, much to disagree with Gene Roddenberry (might have spelled his name wrong lol). People are flawed, egotistical beings that have to explain away everything and prove to themselves that they are the masters of whatever they wish. But time and time again... we learn how wrong we are and that we are NOT superior and that we do NOT have everything correct or explained. Decade after decade passes and what was 'fact' becomes 'fiction'. We have no more 'figured out' anything than our ancestors have, comparing the years 1012 to 2012. We are just as much in the dark as they. But much like they we think we are 'modern' 'civilized' and most sadly 'superior'. The truth is we are not.

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".

Evolution isn't random, it is a very deliberate process that has taken place over millions of years. And science is not a religion. That statement is....to put it politely, you are very wrong.

 

[breaddough]

Hmm... well, is it absolutely vital that he believe the same thing as you? Voltaire said "I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." If you can't even respect each others views, you can avoid the topic entirely. Unless he is directly involved with evolutionary research, I don't see how it could negatively affect him if he continues believing otherwise.

If he wants to understand it, but just can't grasp it right now, he needs to start from the basics. Explain the scientific method, through which the conclusions on evolution have sprung. It is the reason why the theory of evolution has any weight at all, and everyone should appreciate how careful scientists are about accepting something as a theory, and how quick they are to dismiss anything that is proven incorrect.

 

[Macrobstar]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"

I'll let everyone else here handle the evidence portion because it's late and I'm tired, but your dad, assuming he was being sincere, has a severe lack of understanding of:

A) what constitutes scientific evidence, and;
B) what the term theory, as used in scientific study means.

Honestly, I'd say it's not even worth arguing with him. Explore the topic to expand your own understanding by all means, but anyone who so much as says there's more evidence for intelligent design than evolution has their head so far up their ass that you're only risking your continued relationship with them by trying to pull it out. And I say this because there has to be a tremendous amount of willful blindness going on to even say that intelligent design has any evidence in it's favour at all, let alone more than evolution.

I don't want to offend him or risk our relationship, but I don't want to just have to agree with him constantly.
He's a smart man, he studies and takes a great interest in astronomy, its just when he was in school evolution wasn't taught, at least not properly, and he still believes it shouldn't be

 

[Macrobstar]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.

For one, gravity is "just a theory," but it certainly exists. A scientific theory is just a model used to explain phenomena. The existence of gravity, evolution, germs, electrons, etc are not in doubt whatsoever. They exist, period, but gravitational theory, evolutionary theory, germ theory, and electron theory are all our explanations, backed up by MOUNTAINS of scientific evidence, to explain how/why these things exist and work.

Next, ask him to point out JUST ONE piece of "evidence" for "intelligent design," and we will summarily destroy it. There is no evidence for intelligent design.

Anyway, to answer your question, appendixes, tailbones, and other vestigial organs/etc, are all evidence for evolution, since plenty of other animals have them as still-functional organs/etc.

Helpful link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigial

Actually, shit, I just searched for "evidence for evolution" expecting the Wiki article but ended up with this next link, which practically mirrors my first paragraph, hah. This is pretty useful, as well as the link afterward:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_for_evolution

*EDIT EDIT* This channel has some of the best evidence, explained in very layman's terms, that I have ever seen, and argued in a very well-formulated way:

http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007

All his evidence just shows his lack of understanding of the burden of proof, which I tried explaining to him
When asked for evidence for ID his usual response is "Well how did we get here" Or some sort of vague impossible to answer question
Also thank you, those links where helpful

 

[renegade7]

Religion is not based in logic, so you can't use logic when arguing with a religious person =/

 

[Jegsimmons]

My argument, its cooler to think we fought dinosaurs at one point.

 

[Jegsimmons]

Religion is not based in logic, so you can't use logic when arguing with a religious person =/

uh, not sure if being funny, or if i should feel insulted.

 

[spartan231490]

Evolution as a theory actually has a lot of flaws with it, and it really doesn't explain what happened very well. It works pretty well in recent history, but darwinian evolution can't explain a lot of early jumps in the evolution of life.

Now that that's out of the way, you're dad is kinda right. There really isn't any super-compelling evidence out there for evolution. It's more of a collection of small bits of evidence and a complete lack of evidence against it that makes it a good theory. And really, intelligent design has a lot of "evidence" going for it because the presupposition of an all-powerful creator means that any evidence you find to the contrary could have been fabricated to "test your faith."

However, if you want to convince your dad in evolution, you're probably going to need to do some actual research into it on your own. Truth is, school doesn't really teach us much about evolution, they basically say that it exists, and what it does, but they don't go into much if any detail about the basis behind the theory. Look into Darwin's actual research notes, it's actually very interesting. Then you'll prolly want to look into genetics. Genetic drift is a decent place to start, but there is a crap-ton of stuff about evolution in genetics. I only took an intro class so I don't even know what you should google, but there is a lot out there.