Evidence for evolution

Dec 27, 2010
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michael87cn said:
Macrobstar said:
So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.
I agree with your dad personally. I mean, if everything just randomly evolved, why is everything but humanity so perfect? We're supposedly more intelligent too. It all simply fits with Biblical records much more than man-devised theories.

Religion is bad, but the Bible isn't in my opinion. Many people don't seem to understand that you can believe in God in different ways than assembling in a building and believing what every random guy teaches.

That also said, I simply don't trust people enough to believe that they know the truth. I don't believe in the 'potential for humanity' to be superior to everything else, much to disagree with Gene Roddenberry (might have spelled his name wrong lol). People are flawed, egotistical beings that have to explain away everything and prove to themselves that they are the masters of whatever they wish. But time and time again... we learn how wrong we are and that we are NOT superior and that we do NOT have everything correct or explained. Decade after decade passes and what was 'fact' becomes 'fiction'. We have no more 'figured out' anything than our ancestors have, comparing the years 1012 to 2012. We are just as much in the dark as they. But much like they we think we are 'modern' 'civilized' and most sadly 'superior'. The truth is we are not.

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".
My mind... the idiocy of this has just blown it...

Seriously, you show very little understanding of Darwinian theory, science and indeed, reality. It shows such incredible lunacy to suggest that because humans have misunderstood the world in the past, nothing can ever be considered true, despite over-whelming evidence, and yet you still think that a book that says that there was light before the stars, plants before the sun and an arc capable of holding 2-7 of every species of animal on earth makes more sense than Darwinian evolution, an idea that has in essence been indisputably proven. I genuinely advise that you actually read up on both the scientific method and the historicity of the Bible before you decide to discuss it again, or perhaps just hold your tongue next time.
 

Frostwhisper21

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Stagnant said:
michael87cn said:
I agree with your dad personally. I mean, if everything just randomly evolved, why is everything but humanity so perfect? We're supposedly more intelligent too.
Evolution is not random. Genetic mutations over time would be random if it weren't for the selective processes: natural selection. Evolution has a random element, to be sure, but what happens is, among these mutations, the beneficial ones are selected by nature.

Furthermore, everything but humanity so perfect? Despite the background extinction rate [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_extinction_rate]? Even then, to a large extent, you'd expect animals to have adapted to their environments ? that's how evolution works: only those fit to reproduce within their environment in the first place will have viable offspring.

It all simply fits with Biblical records much more than man-devised theories.
The Biblical records? You mean like how the earth was created in six days 6000 years ago, with the night and day independent from the sun and stars? Or how Noah crafted an ark which, with the technologies available to him, would have fallen apart as soon as it hit the water (look up Itsthesuperfly's vids on it for details)? Or how a man rose from the dead?

The bible contains many things that fly directly in the face of logic, reason, and history. We know that the genesis account is wrong. We know that Noah's Ark is a childish story that is impossible in many ways. And we know that the bible was not written by god, but rather by men.

That also said, I simply don't trust people enough to believe that they know the truth. I don't believe in the 'potential for humanity' to be superior to everything else, much to disagree with Gene Roddenberry (might have spelled his name wrong lol). People are flawed, egotistical beings that have to explain away everything and prove to themselves that they are the masters of whatever they wish. But time and time again... we learn how wrong we are and that we are NOT superior and that we do NOT have everything correct or explained. Decade after decade passes and what was 'fact' becomes 'fiction'. We have no more 'figured out' anything than our ancestors have, comparing the years 1012 to 2012. We are just as much in the dark as they. But much like they we think we are 'modern' 'civilized' and most sadly 'superior'. The truth is we are not.
Huh. Speaking of man-made things that have been exposed as lies... There's this great book I've heard of, it's called "The Bible". A long time ago, most humans in Europe and the Americas believed in it. But recently, it has been conclusively proven that it is:
A) Written by humans
B) Logically inconsistent
C) Contextually incoherent

Seriously, apply this line of reasoning to your bible and it falls apart. Apply it to science... And science stands strong. Why? Because science asks you to take nothing on faith, but rather to examine the available facts and data and draw your own conclusions. Science merely assumes that humans are able to use their senses and brains. Nothing more.

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".
"Just another religion"?

All right. I'd like you to do me a favor. I'd like you, who would denounce science, to do away with everything scientific in your life. Everything that science has offered you. Just... cut it right out of your life. This includes your computer, phone, and any other electrical devices. Without science, we wouldn't have any electronics. Our understanding of technology comes directly from application of the scientific method. This includes anything you own that uses aluminum, both metallic alloys developed with the scientific method. This includes your car, as the internal combustion engine would have been impossible without application of the scientific method.

Once you've done that, feel free to come back and post here about how great life is without science ? oh wait, you can't, because the software behind this forum was developed with Information Theory, which was developed by the scientific method. And because every device that would allow you to do so would have been completely impossible without various scientific breakthroughs.

Even if science was "just a religion", it would be the religion that comes closest to proving its validity. But it's not. You have a completely and utterly flawed view of what science actually is. Science, at its most basic, is nothing more than "The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment". That's... pretty much it. It does not disprove god. It does not replace god with man. It simply gives us the tools to look at the world rationally. To deny science is to deny your own senses and our understanding of the world, and to reject science is to reject all of the progress of the last 300 years.

I suggest just posting the Skeptics annotated bible at this point. It's amazing how the people who make religion look bad know almost nothing about the Bible's own faults.
 

Al-Bundy-da-G

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Do you have similar features as your father? Same colored eyes, hair, skin, nose shape? That's proof of evolution, the passing of traits from one generation to the next. Btw, don't feel bad my brother doesn't think evolution exists either.
 

Frostwhisper21

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Stagnant said:
Frostwhisper21 said:
I suggest just posting the Skeptics annotated bible at this point. It's amazing how the people who make religion look bad know almost nothing about the Bible's own faults.
...What, exactly, in my post do you disagree with?
Nothing, but it tends to be much more effective to use the bible to show how flawed a fundamentalist's logic is. No matter how logical this was, the guy you quoted was either a troll or a bible-thumper, so it seems more effective to just give up and give him a bible to read.
 

Something Amyss

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michael87cn said:
I agree with your dad personally. I mean, if everything just randomly evolved, why is everything but humanity so perfect?
lol what? What particularly is so perfect?

It all simply fits with Biblical records much more than man-devised theories.
The same Bible that has two different accounts for creation which differ from one another?

I'm not really sure what fits together better, anyway. Age of the Earth? No. Creation of man? No.

Religion is bad, but the Bible isn't in my opinion.
Right. Religion is bad, but a religious handbook isn't.

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".
Ah, now I get it. You seem to be woefully misinformed about science. No wonder you feel the Bible offers a better explanation.
 

n00beffect

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spartan231490 said:
Hammeroj said:
spartan231490 said:
Monoochrom said:
Jegsimmons said:
renegade7 said:
Religion is not based in logic, so you can't use logic when arguing with a religious person =/
uh, not sure if being funny, or if i should feel insulted.
Uh, neither? Religion isn't based in logic, so that's correct, no joke hidden there. And about it being insulting...well, I really don't see how that is insulting, you can't bring up logic in a discussion with a religious person about religion seeing as their religion defies logic. They will just ignore it, in fact, thats what always happens.
Religion doesn't defy logic. Fundamentalists often twist religion to defy logic, but that isn't how religion is supposed to be. Religion exists outside the purview of logic. It is about having faith in times when logic doesn't have an answer.
I love how you know what religion is supposed to be. I also love the way you call the people who believe their good books the most the people who twist religion into something.

Outside of logic is not logic by definition. Illogical. Don't even try to spin this shit with your pseudo-intellectual rhetoric.
Bit over-aggressive don't you think? Someone's a little defensive me thinks.

I never said religion was logical, I said that it exists outside the realm of logic, and therefore can't be thought of in terms of logical or illogical. Further, I didn't say that all fundamentalists did that, I said that some do. And I suppose i misspoke myself, I meant radicals, but the two are so often synonymous I misspoke myself.

Sorry to bud in like that, on your conversation, but what you're saying is in and of itself illogical. There can be nothing that 'exists outside of logic', for logic isn't some sort of realm, for which you can be either inside, or outside of it. Logic is our way of understanding common day phenomena, and explaining them. It corresponds directly with our way of reasoning; ergo, saying that 'God exists outside of logic', is the same as saying that God exists outside of reason, which would mean what? Precisely: that God is UNREASONABLE, and, quite honestly, I couldn't agree with you more!

The following is directed towards everyone:

Oh, and in terms of 'faith'... Well, let me just tell you that any belief or notion, based entirely on faith, just like religion, can never hold to scrutiny. Let me give you an example: Say I write a book, in which I depict the creation of man, by and extraterrestrial life form, called INYOBUTT (stay with me, please), from some far away, invisible, undetectable planet, which cannot be touched by anything, ever. These aliens, you see, spoke to me in my sleep, telling me everything I need to know about them, and instructing me to write it down. This book, they seem to tell me, contains information of how we should live our lives, explaining that after we die, we go to their magical invisible planet where we spend eternity with them in glorious pleasures and such and such; however, if we anger them, then they'll send us to the opposite invisible magical planet, where their biggest enemies reside, called INYOFACE, who will, and I paraphrase, fuck your shit-up if you're naughty or something (although why they would want to punish you for defying THEIR enemies, I don't know, but whatever, let's just leave it at that); also, in the book there are some rules, by which we must all abide and live our lives, so that we can go to the INYOBUTT planet. Next thing you know, I die of a heart attack, but before that I bury the book in my backyard, for some arbitrary reason. 2000 years afterwards, some bloke finds it, and claims he now knows the origin of the world, and how it all came to be, and approaches YOU, and tells you all this fascinating stuff he found, in this book, and how many people believed him, and how monuments and buildings are being raised as we speak, in the name of the great alien race INYOBUTT, and as evidence he gives you:

a. The book itself

b. Tells you that the only thing you need to do, to become a part of the club, is to believe in it

c. Tells you about the INYOFACE planet, which will fuck your shit up etc.

Now, say this happens TODAY, so riddle me this: Would you believe it? And Why/Why not?

Oh, and just to list some answers that wouldn't be very appropriate, and will not count as credible answers:

1. My parents/friends don't believe it; therefore I don't / I wasn't raised with it.
2. I wasn't born in the region, in which it originated. (which is the reason you believe in a specific religion, and not in any other)
3. I don't have faith in it (that one wouldn't count, unless you explain why you don't believe it. If so, then please do)
4. Sounds silly (so does yours, and everybody else's...)
5. The Bible/Qurran/etc. show more evidence (no they don't. They show more testimonies, but certainly not evidence)
6. Some authority figure tells me it's bull****, like a pastor or something (still doesn't count, and still not evidence)
7. Everyone around me believes [THIS] religion; therefore I do.
8. [Such and Such god] told me so in my dreams, or something of the sort. (if that's the case, go see a shrink, please)

Appropriate answer:
1. Because there's no empirical evidence to back it up; however if you chose that one, then you must apply it to every religion in the world, including yours.
 

Olas

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Dec 24, 2011
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It's a common misconception that most christians believe in creationism. The vast majority of Christians are Catholic (like me) and catholics accept evolution. So believing in creationism puts you in the minority even among cristians.

I personally like to believe that science helps explain god's methods rather than refuting him. The idea that God would have to intervene with the natural workings of his own creations would imply that he made them flawed from the start, which doesn't fit well with him being all powerful.

That's why if you really want to learn about the divine creator, you should study the universe not the bible, because god actually created the universe.
 

KingofallCosmos

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He will see, once we've evolved into brains with giant thumbs.

PS I had to post, they told me I made a panda cry...
 

BiscuitTrouser

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OlasDAlmighty said:
It's a common misconception that most christians believe in creationism. The vast majority of Christians are Catholic (like me) and catholics accept evolution. So believing in creationism puts you in the minority even among cristians.

I personally like to believe that science helps explain god's methods rather than refuting him. The idea that God would have to intervene with the natural workings of his own creations would imply that he made them flawed from the start, which doesn't fit well with him being all powerful.

That's why if you really want to learn about the divine creator, you should study the universe not the bible, because god actually created the universe.
As an atheist let me extend my hand and say you and your beliefs are awesome. THIS is the kind of religious outlook i can love. Im awesome with the idea of god, and i think jesus was one of the greatest men to ever live and in my view this is awesome. I might not agree with you but im impressed by this. I think some religious sects are detrimental to society, but this outlook here is actually the first ive heard to put it so eloquently.

I see it like this, imagine you are an artist and you slave for years on a sculpture, some people you know write a few notes about what they thought you meant and put it next to the sculpture. You show your art to the world and to your surprise a lot of people start reading the notes, then arguing about them. They cant decide what the notes mean, a few people wrote them, and they dont understand what your art means now, the notes just dont help them enough.
None of them ever took the time to even look at your sculpture.

Now as an artist id be gorram annoyed by this.

Religious people from every religion need to realise that while your books might offer insight to your religion, men wrote them. And while men wrote your books, god created the universe with all its rules and secrets. If i was religious i know which one id trust in terms of understanding the art.
 

Kyrinn

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May 10, 2011
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Ask your Dad for evidence supporting Intelligent Design Theory.
When he says "The Bible", just say "no" and laugh.

Also there is tons of research out there on all kinds of evolution. From molecular to the large scale stuff. Books, published articles and all that; all peer-reviewed. What do creationists have that scientifically supports their "theory"? A thrice (or however many times it really is) translated collection of writings and letters from 2000+ years ago.
Faith is not evidence
 

Weentastic

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Stagnant said:
Weentastic said:
I'm really confused by this. I'm not a particularly philosophical person so maybe I just can't penetrate your language. I don't like it when Christians fight with atheists and I thought they should stop. I think Christians should stop trying to prove everyone else wrong and live the way they were supposed to. We are supposed to be a light unto the world, but its not talking about our argumentative skills. I guess I just don't understand what exactly about this makes you so angry.
What bugs me is, simply put, this idea that your religion should be separated from your cognitive reasoning. That you can't apply logic or evidence to your god, and that's supposed to be a good thing?
Perhaps I misspoke. Logic isn't and deduction and all that isn't the only thing you are supposed to apply to God. His purpose isn't to answer all of our questions. There are parts of him that do make sense to us, and there are parts of him that don't. The parts that are confusing are only confusing because we aren't God and we are fallible. But enough on that as that only seems to get you riled up.
The reason I originally posted is to make the point that since you can only show that it could have happened a certain way and not that it DID happen a certain way, then you aren't going to convince them. I think its a better alternative to start with a very small definition of evolution, one that doesn't interfere with their beliefs at all (evolution: change in alleles over time) and get them warmed up to it over time, rather than try and topple them over with a tidal wave of arguing.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Humans have little muscles behind our ears that allow us to wiggle them slightly, for no reason whatsoever. Because we do not rely on our hearing that much, they are completely redundant to us. However, in animals such as lions, these muscles are used to manipulate the direction of the ears to improve detection. If someone intelligent enough to design a human being had in fact done so, they would not have included a useless muscle just for the lulz (especially if they were God, they'd have much more important things to do).

EDIT: Also, as for Intelligent Design, just because some part of an organism is too complex to function at a more basic level does not mean that it was vital to the organism while it was being developed. Moreover, organisms do not simply build on systems, occasionally they also remove redundancies, resulting in a seemingly impossible complex system that may just have eliminated its primitive roots.
 

Furioso

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Macrobstar said:
Vegosiux said:
Macrobstar said:
So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
Tell them that in science "theory" means something else than it means in CSI and that in science, a "theory" isn't a "wild guess" and that it most definitely is not "just a".

If they still resist direct them to an armed nuke IN SPACE! and tell them to sit on it while you hit the trigger. After all, it's "just" the atomic "theory" behind it.
So what does an idea have to do to be labelled a theory? I need it to be put so he can understand that there is evidence behind it. He thinks that its just wild speculation being taught in schools
It's a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory, in that we are not sure, 100% positive on exactly how every single tiny detail of gravity works, but we still know it works and have a pretty good idea on how it works

As for my point, the founder of the "theory," Charles Darwin, used evolution to actually explain the existence of God, saying something about how only God would have had the foresight to give life the ability to adapt to it's ever changing surroundings and survive (paraphrasing of course)
 

Lucane

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Macrobstar said:
So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.
You could say religion's intelligent design doesn't really have proof either and is just a theory that has a faith behind it but that might go over so well in that most people say you're meant to have "faith" in a religion to follow it properly.