Evolution

[Ace of Spades]

Species evolve, organisms don't. Your ability to survive from a genetic standpoint does not change in your life. Traits that are ill-suited to an organism's environment make that organism bad at surviving, thus it will die, and cannot pass on its traits. Those that survive reproduce, and when the genetic material is being copied in the production of sex cells, that's where crossing over happens, which changes the genetic material, and this change is random. It's like spinning the wheel of genetics, and those who get dealt a good set of genes get to pass on what made them good, with some variations in the next generation.

 

[kromify]

Species evolve, organisms don't. Your ability to survive from a genetic standpoint does not change in your life. Traits that are ill-suited to an organism's environment make that organism bad at surviving, thus it will die, and cannot pass on its traits. Those that survive reproduce, and when the genetic material is being copied in the production of sex cells, that's where crossing over happens, which changes the genetic material, and this change is random. It's like spinning the wheel of genetics, and those who get dealt a good set of genes get to pass on what made them good, with some variations in the next generation.

NOT TRUE!!! just look at spiderman. his DNA reacted to a toxic event, and BOOM. parker evolved.

 

[kane.malakos]

Correct me if I'm wrong (or sound stupid) but I think a perfect example of evolution (at least the kind I was taught) is when conceiving a child. It starts as two single cells (or however many cells a sperm and egg have) then it becomes a zygote annnnnd then whatever happens next (I've forgotten most of sex ed, or at least the beginning) and in the end it becomes a human, so yeah, sounds like evolution to me.

That is, in fact, very wrong. An individual organism, like a single human being, cannot "evolve." Only species can evolve.

 

[omega 616]

Are we still seriously arguing about evolution in this day and age? This is 2011 and people still are going WAAAAH WAAAH! I refuse to acknowledge science because of the big invisible man in the sky?!

I can tell you read the OP, you caught me, thats exactly what I was doing. For future referance, read the OP before posting.

I was asking how it works, not if there is such a thing.

So why isn't every animal an omnivore? Yeah plants grow everywhere but so do animals, why not double your chances of living by eating both? While there evolving they can evolve the ability to eat the other thing.

That would be because of niches and habitats.
Say there's a field with two kinds of flowers on it. In this field there are two different species of animal. If both species were to eat both kinds of flowers, they would have to compete with each other to get food, and that makes surviving far harder. Indeed, one of the species might die out.
If each species ate different flowers though, they wouldn't have to compete with each other, and it would be easier for both species to survive.

When different species live together, evolution favours specialization. If there are a lot of different species around, your specie should find a niche for surviving and stick with it.

However, if only one specie lives by itself in this field, those individuals that could eat other things than the rest would have an easier time surviving, and would multiply. Over time, the specie's niche would grow broader. It would become a generalized specie: one that can survive in lots of different conditions, like for example crows can.

Except if your a dear, then you don't develop anything to protect yourself and get eaten by just about eveything.

Thats another thing I don't get, if it's survival of the fittest or most adapted, by aren't things like dears extinct?

Deer are pretty well camouflaged. They are also good at running from predators, and can fight if it comes down to it.

Edit: Funny theory about deer. The irish elk [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Elk] which lived in fields could have antlers as wide as nine feet. When the vegetation started to increase and what was formerly fields became forests, the antlers made it impossible to navigate between the trees, and the irish elk died out.

So the guy is ok shooting dear but not ok stabbing or kicking it? Serves the guy right. I know dear can kick ass against some things (I saw it attack a dog) but against something more serious it's not got alot.

I don't know if I class being brown with a white tail as camo, sure they live in the woods and wood is brown but a white tail? How they aren't the same as a dodo I will never know.

Like I said to somebody else, running isn't that great of a defence either. Elephants and hippos can run at like 30 MPH, so it's not that good. Agility might be a better word but it's not like whatever eats dear isn't agile aswell 'cos otherwise dear would be over populated.

From a survival point of view it just makes sense to expand your eating prefrances. If your a veggie trapped on a desert island (like lost) do you stick hardcore to your veggie diet or do you eat fish with the rest of your party?

What animal can't run? An elephant, even a hippo can run faster than human. Running isn't real a defence, not when comapred to almost every other animal. Other animals have things like camo (moths and stone fish), firing something off (oil or hairs) or snapping off a leg like that lizard.

Even zebras have one up on dears, atleast they camo with themselvs. Being brown isn't really a camo ... especially when your tail is white.

Okay now I'm certain that you are either a troll or a creationist that simply refuses to read what has been typed out right in front of him.

EVOLUTION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Please try to get that through your skull, it is not something that is chosen, it just fucking happens.
And because I am almost positive that my eyes are bugging the fuck out, did you just compare an omnivore making a conciouss choice to not eat meat with a species that has never developed the ability?
Because I'm pretty sure five year olds can comprehend what is wrong with that concept.

Try chasing down a deer sometime, I fucking dare you.

Yes it is, but since you are having such a hard time grasping the concept of evolution being a natural event that in no way is decided concioussly I'm not going to waste my fingers trying to explain the myriad ways that a deer's colour scheme helps it survive.

I know dears are fast, I never said otherwise. I said an elephant and a hippo can run fast so it's not exactly a great defense.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

SNIP

You are right my friend, alone evolution makes no sense! Which is why we have an evolutionary CATALYST! An evolutionary catalyst is a REASON to evolve. AS some scientist put it, there are FAR too many of every animal born than can survive (except in people cus we totally cheat the system and thats eventually gonna crash down on our heads once over population becomes an issue), i mean hey even if an animal DOMINATES a system by being so perfect, it has to compete with its own damn brethren. TOo many of one animal. Thing is that you have 100 giraffes and 1 tree from your example. They all swarm that tree and DECIMATE its bottom branches. Now they have no food. Except mr taller neck. He can reach JUST above his fellows and grab the leaves further up. Maybe theres a drought, maybe the food is scarce, maybe theres TOO MANY GIRAFFES! One of these catalysts FORCES a contest between the giraffes over who can get JUST a little bit more than everyone else. The rest die, or are weak and malnurished. Now females dont care about neck length, but they care about health.

Spider jumping/poison. Here we go again. This requires MUTATION. The female spider, being larger and the carrier of eggs needs a LOT of food. Her venom kills knats as it is, tiny flies. The enzyme inhibitor in there (it stops enzymes from doing stuff in the body) blocks the flies nural enzymes and thus disabbles its nervous system. Now you see the inhibitor isnt that great, it works on everything (thats related a tiny bit or relies on that enzyme) to a TINY degree. This inhibitor changes in shape EVER SO SLIGHTLY. Now it fits better, and works on other animals, in fact, another inhibitor maybe present now, making it a venom mix of inhibitors (all venoms are a mix of shiz that disables a tonne of different stuff to have an effect, im just simplifying it for you). it now works on larger organisms, the inhibitor blocks neural transmission and paralyses larger bugs. It eats well, it survives out of its kin and grows larger. The largest. It mates with any old random male, and its offspring have awesome poison too. They survive better and breed.

Omnivores and why isnt everything one. Tricky.
Ill have a whack at it though, my A level in biology best pull me through this.

Everything was at first a plant. Understand? Algea, plants EVERYTHING used photosynthasis. I mean WHAT could it eat? Theres nothing but rock and shit. This is all dandy. Theres a lot of plants now, all soaking up sunlight slowly, absorbing it, slowly growing larger. They populate. Fast. Nothing eats them, and sun is pretty common. Now we have A LOOOOT of algea, all absorbing sunlight. Heres the thing, whats faster, gathering grass or finding someone whos gathered grass for 10 years, killing him, and taking his grass. Now heres where we get the first carnivores/eaters of other organisms. They all have enzymes to break down nutrients, nutruients that make up their bodies right? This means some of them mutated to be able to break down EACHOTHER and absorb energy/nutrients the faster way. Slowly evolution meant they got rid of their photosynthasis, why bother, this way is MUCH faster. Of course theres so much freakin algea, and SO much sun, that the algea is NEVER hungry, and breeds faster than the more complex eating bacteria, so it all balences out. Thus the first herbivore was born. Techincally, its kinda a carnivore as far as cells go. Repeat for carnivores.

 

[kane.malakos]

I don't know if I class being brown with a white tail as camo, sure they live in the woods and wood is brown but a white tail? How they aren't the same as a dodo I will never know.

Like I said to somebody else, running isn't that great of a defence either. Elephants and hippos can run at like 30 MPH, so it's not that good. Agility might be a better word but it's not like whatever eats dear isn't agile aswell 'cos otherwise dear would be over populated.

I know dears are fast, I never said otherwise. I said an elephant and a hippo can run fast so it's not exactly a great defense.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

The white tails are a defense mechanism. They only show the white when they are scared by something, and it serves to warn the rest of the herd about predators or other danger.

As to your point about herbivorous creatures, you're assuming that they arose in an area with plentiful meat and plants. However, deer evolved in an area where plants were much more prevalent. There was no real advantage to being carnivorous. Think about it this way, the chances of a deer taking down another animal and eating it are low. It might come up occasionally, but not often enough that it means the difference between life and death.

 

[Quiet Stranger]

Correct me if I'm wrong (or sound stupid) but I think a perfect example of evolution (at least the kind I was taught) is when conceiving a child. It starts as two single cells (or however many cells a sperm and egg have) then it becomes a zygote annnnnd then whatever happens next (I've forgotten most of sex ed, or at least the beginning) and in the end it becomes a human, so yeah, sounds like evolution to me.

That is, in fact, very wrong. An individual organism, like a single human being, cannot "evolve." Only species can evolve.

And now I know! And knowing is half the battle!! Gooooooooo JOE!!!

 

[moretimethansense]

I know dears are fast, I never said otherwise. I said an elephant and a hippo can run fast so it's not exactly a great defense.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

You owe me a new desk by the way.

First, Elephants and hippo's are not well known for hunting deer so I have no idea what you are trying to get at with that statement.
And yes, running fast is a very good defences, try escaping a predetor without running, you won't get far.
As I said, get a knife and try killing a deer that has seen you coming, perhaps then you'll have a greater appreciation for running like a ***** as self-defence.

Who said it was the first thing it saw?
It randomly developed over time the ability to absorb sustinance from a source other random protiens floating about in the water, over time they got better at it developed a digestive system and a method to forcefully extract sustinance from plants and/or other life forms.

And NO IT DOES NOT HAVE A CHOICE!

I can't say it any other way so go to your nearest institute of learning that teaches evolutionary theory, ask them these questions and watch as they reach for something to bash your head in.
This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp you know.

 

[teebeeohh]

read Richard Dawkins
or better yet, read him AND Carl Sagan

 

[Jonluw]

I don't know if I class being brown with a white tail as camo, sure they live in the woods and wood is brown but a white tail? How they aren't the same as a dodo I will never know.

Like I said to somebody else, running isn't that great of a defence either. Elephants and hippos can run at like 30 MPH, so it's not that good. Agility might be a better word but it's not like whatever eats dear isn't agile aswell 'cos otherwise dear would be over populated.

Running is a pretty damn good tactic for surviving. And when I was talking about Camo, I mainly referred to does. The little bambi bastards. Their mothers will leave them in the grass to hide and then go off on their own, that's how heavily they rely on their child's camouflage. And it works.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

No. When the first organism developed the ability to consume other organisms, there was no proper distinction between plants and animals. Everything happened on a single-celled level.

"Plants" would be the creatures with clorophyll that fed off the power of the sun, and inorganic material. "Animals" would be the ones that, by endocytosis presumably, consumed other organisms, both plants and other "animals".

The reason some animals eat meat and some eat plants is that it isn't beneficial for everyone to eat the same things.
I explained this a little while back: If everyone can eat everything there'll be a lot of competition between species, and the ones that aren't the best at it will die out or - and here's the clue - evolve to find food in a way that the others don't, so that it can survive with it's own niche and habitat.

Interspecific competition causes smaller niches, while intraspecific competition causes broader niches.
A niche is what you call all the resources an organism consumes and depends on in its habitat.

Edit: I'm beginning to wonder if you're just trolling now dude.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Species evolve, organisms don't. Your ability to survive from a genetic standpoint does not change in your life. Traits that are ill-suited to an organism's environment make that organism bad at surviving, thus it will die, and cannot pass on its traits. Those that survive reproduce, and when the genetic material is being copied in the production of sex cells, that's where crossing over happens, which changes the genetic material, and this change is random. It's like spinning the wheel of genetics, and those who get dealt a good set of genes get to pass on what made them good, with some variations in the next generation.

NOT TRUE!!! just look at spiderman. his DNA reacted to a toxic event, and BOOM. parker evolved.

And I forgot Pokemon too! I'm not doing very well today!

 

[kromify]

oooh reading richard dawkins is enough to put me off evolution. he comes off as such a twazzock

 

[omega 616]

I don't know if I class being brown with a white tail as camo, sure they live in the woods and wood is brown but a white tail? How they aren't the same as a dodo I will never know.

Like I said to somebody else, running isn't that great of a defence either. Elephants and hippos can run at like 30 MPH, so it's not that good. Agility might be a better word but it's not like whatever eats dear isn't agile aswell 'cos otherwise dear would be over populated.

I know dears are fast, I never said otherwise. I said an elephant and a hippo can run fast so it's not exactly a great defense.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

The white tails are a defense mechanism. They only show the white when they are scared by something, and it serves to warn the rest of the herd about predators or other danger.

As to your point about herbivorous creatures, you're assuming that they arose in an area with plentiful meat and plants. However, deer evolved in an area where plants were much more prevalent. There was no real advantage to being carnivorous. Think about it this way, the chances of a deer taking down another animal and eating it are low. It might come up occasionally, but not often enough that it means the difference between life and death.

I am only saying dear so people know I am talking about relativly weak animal, if you think of the thing that started the evolution to a dear, why couldn't it evolve to use it's urine like a skunk? Or instead of ruining it's camo by flashing a white tail make a noise,which is only giving it's rough position away rather than the hunter seeing a flash of white and knowing exactly. There alot better than "I can run fast and I am brown with a white ass".

I know dears are fast, I never said otherwise. I said an elephant and a hippo can run fast so it's not exactly a great defense.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

You owe me a new desk by the way.

First, Elephants and hippo's are not well known for hunting deer so I have no idea what you are trying to get at with that statement.
And yes, running fast is a very good defences, try escaping a predetor without running, you won't get far.
As I said, get a knife and try killing a deer that has seen you coming, perhaps then you'll have a greater appreciation for running like a ***** as self-defence.

Who said it was the first thing it saw?
It randomly developed over time the ability to absorb sustinance from a source other random protiens floating about in the water, over time they got better at it developed a digestive system and a method to forcefully extract sustinance from plants and/or other life forms.

And NO IT DOES NOT HAVE A CHOICE!

I can't say it any other way so go to your nearest institute of learning that teaches evolutionary theory, ask them these questions and watch as they reach for something to bash your head in.
This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp you know.

Yeah, thats what I said elephants and hippos hunt dear ... happens all the time. I said elephants and hippos can run fast, it's not a great defensive measure. Agility might be a better word for it.

Who says you have to escape by running? If a hippo feels threatend it will breath on you, a skunk will spray you, a squid (I think) will leave oil behind, all these are better than "leg it!" so how come it never evolved to have that? Just 'cos isn't a good answer.

I am not 100% on the whole strawman thing but I am guessing your throwing them out there like the straw is on fire.

I am not surprised your on probation so much. I am just generally interested in science and I seem to be struggling getting my head round this. No need for the insults/arrogance/being condescending, if your getting mad at me leave this thread, nobody is forcing you to be here quoting me.

 

[GodofCider]

Animals aren't guaranteed to simply survive - plenty of species simply die out.

My understanding is that the ones that survive have some advantage initially simply by way of luck, and over time the species adapts further to the environment.

I'd rephrase that to: almost all species simply die out.

 

[omega 616]

I don't know if I class being brown with a white tail as camo, sure they live in the woods and wood is brown but a white tail? How they aren't the same as a dodo I will never know.

Like I said to somebody else, running isn't that great of a defence either. Elephants and hippos can run at like 30 MPH, so it's not that good. Agility might be a better word but it's not like whatever eats dear isn't agile aswell 'cos otherwise dear would be over populated.

Running is a pretty damn good tactic for surviving. And when I was talking about Camo, I mainly referred to does. The little bambi bastards. Their mothers will leave them in the grass to hide and then go off on their own, that's how heavily they rely on their child's camouflage. And it works.

Are you saying it was just random chance that the first animal ate the first thing it saw? I would just guess it would just eat anything. If it has no specialized eating system has formed (like sharp teeth to rip flesh or flat teeth to grind leaves) it basically has a choice what to eat, so why not eat everything?

No. When the first organism developed the ability to consume other organisms, there was no proper distinction between plants and animals. Everything happened on a single-celled level.

"Plants" would be the creatures with clorophyll that fed off the power of the sun, and inorganic material. "Animals" would be the ones that, by endocytosis presumably, consumed other organisms, both plants and other "animals".

The reason some animals eat meat and some eat plants is that it isn't beneficial for everyone to eat the same things.
I explained this a little while back: If everyone can eat everything there'll be a lot of competition between species, and the ones that aren't the best at it will die out or - and here's the clue - evolve to find food in a way that the others don't, so that it can survive with it's own niche and habitat.

Interspecific competition causes smaller niches, while intraspecific competition causes broader niches.
A niche is what you call all the resources an organism consumes and depends on in its habitat.

Edit: I'm beginning to wonder if you're just trolling now dude.

Thanks, I think I get it now.

I don't see the point in trolling, seems that ... insult gets throw around alot though. I am/was just having a hard time getting my head round this. People learn at different speeds, what can I say?

 

[Arrogancy]

The key here is time and large populations. Lots of time.

Imagine if there is a race of horse-like creatures living in fields. They do not eat grass, instead they eat the leaves off trees. Now say there are other creatures living with these creatures in their fields, eating from the same trees. Neither of the two species of creatures are tall enough to reach the leaves at the top, so they all have to compete for the leaves at the bottom of the trees.

Now, just like all humans are different, all (advanced) animals are different as well. This means that - just like with humans - some of the creatures that are born will have a longer neck than the others. Reaching leaves that haven't yet been eaten by other creatures will be marginally easier for the taller animals. This means that specimens with a longer neck will have a slightly higher rate of survival, and will therefore have a higher chance of procreating successfully.
Over the course of thousands upon thousands of years, the species as a whole will obviously end up with longer necks, since a long neck is an inheritable trait.

And then you have giraffes.

Thats the bit I am not getting. You have these horsies trying to much on the bottom leaves, they all have necks roughly the same size (your not going to be having one horse with no neck and one 20 foot long), are the females walking round thinking "oooh his neck is 1 mm longer than all the others, I shall mate with him!" and the males are thinking "yeah, shes into me but her neck is short as hell! Now her over there has a really long neck but shes not a looker!".

Say all animals are like that, there are no great or very weak, there just all kind of samey. How does the female spider, with venom so weak a flea wouldn't even get dizzy from it choose a mate with slightly stronger venom, how does she know? Same for the male? How do they know "If only I had more powerful venom I could eat that lizard".

Why did the jumping spider decide to make wasps it's main meal? How did it get the ability to jump so far? Why didn't it stick to building a web? How did it learn how to get hold of the wasp but avoid it's sting?

Your thinking is off. Animals do not decide for themselves to reproduce to make better offspring. It just happens. The gene pool gets limited by natural factors (predators, food scarcity, etc.) those who were too ill-equipped to survive didn't live to pass on their genetic information. Those who were better equipped had that opportunity. The successive generation then shows more of that (or those) gene(s) that allowed the parent to survive. Now, in the hypothetical that you posit, yes, it is possible for two certain traits to negate each other, but that doesn't stop genetic anomalies and variations from cropping up and diversifying the gene pool.

 

[fates_puppet13]

random variations in genetic code build up in organisms making suptle and frequently beneign changes to a species
if it helps them survive then they are more likely to live and reproduce
over very long periouds of time circumnavigating several generations this can result in a new species that is seperate from the original all those generations ago

 

[moretimethansense]

Yeah, thats what I said elephants and hippos hunt dear ... happens all the time. I said elephants and hippos can run fast, it's not a great defensive measure. Agility might be a better word for it.

Who says you have to escape by running? If a hippo feels threatend it will breath on you, a skunk will spray you, a squid (I think) will leave oil behind, all these are better than "leg it!" so how come it never evolved to have that? Just 'cos isn't a good answer.

I am not 100% on the whole strawman thing but I am guessing your throwing them out there like the straw is on fire.

I am not surprised your on probation so much. I am just generally interested in science and I seem to be struggling getting my head round this. No need for the insults/arrogance/being condescending, if your getting mad at me leave this thread, nobody is forcing you to be here quoting me.

For the last time, running IS a great defensive measure, it is in fact one of the most important defensive measures on the planet, if you don't run, you get eaten by things that are bigger than you.

A hippo feeling threatened?
That's a laugh, you realize the reason that hippos don't run is because they are th single most dangerous animal in africa right?
After the skunk has sprayed the predetor, it legs it, a squid's ink is used as cover for legging it.
Running is essential for any species that can cocieveably fit in to another creatures mouth.
And "just cause" IS the fucking awnser, there was no plan, there was no divine hand(probably), shit mutated, what worked, worked, what didn't, died.

Nope no strawman here, you are assuming that creatures plan out their evolutionary paths, I am pointing out that that is fucking stupid.
For future referance, a strawman would mean that I was presenting a weakened and flawed version of your arguement then striking it down without refering to your actual points.
Your points are plenty weak enough that I don't need to do so.

I'm on probation because I have a short fuse and the mods apparantly take blunt speaking to be an insult.
Honestly though, if you are having genuine trouble understanding this and aren't just trolling seek out a natural history museum or something because no matter how ofeten or how elequently it is explained you don't seem to want to get it.

For simplicity's sake:

A multicelular organism randomly mutates, the mutation is passed to its desendents, over time the change becomes more pronounced, if the change is beneficial to the speiceis' continued existance theuy tend to breed more and the change carries on, if not they tend to die out.

That's all there is to it, if you can't understand at this poiunt I think you need a liscensed teacher of the evolutionary theory to explain this to you in the same way you'd explain to young childeren(no offence) because the fact that you don't get it at trhis point indicates that you are either frankly kind of dumb (again, no offence) or are willfully ignoring what is being said to you.

EDIT: Typical,a few posts before I finish typing and he seems to finally get it.

 

[Peteron]

Evolution is determined by many factors...mainly Darwin's theory involving isolation of species, survival of the fittest, and genetic mutations. This process takes huge amounts of time to witness any actual change in most cases. A prime example is the fact that we used to be hairy monkeys and after years of evolution became hairless, bipedal freaks.