Excluding Women From E-Sports Does Not Legitimize It

[Daaaah Whoosh]

Time and again, I've been baffled by how many 'manly' things women can be really good at. Every time, I'm filled with shame at the realization that I've been made to believe by society that women are inferior; it's not true now, and it never has been, but in the back of my mind I have these hard-coded predispositions that keep trying to push me ever closer to misogyny. And I really think it has to do with this kind of thing. It's not just women who are negatively affected by this kind of segregation; our whole race suffers when one group is excluded.
All I can really say is that this kind of thing can't last. After all, we're starting to accept different definitions for what it means to be male and female; I could say tomorrow that I was a woman, and most people would just have to go with it. In such a world where people get to choose who and what they are, who can tell the difference enough to exclude anyone?

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Oh for crying out loud this is ridiculous. I get it that they are a private organization and can set whatever parameters they choose, but pretending like men and women need to be separated for a video game competition so it seems more like a "real sport" is just insane.

In actual physically competitive sports the separation makes sense, but let's be blunt here: trying to pretend that a video game competition requires the same level of athletic ability as football, basketball, hockey etc. is just ridiculous. You could be the best StarCraft 2 or CoD player in the world and be a paraplegic.

 

[AmberSword]

From what I read, the IeSF is based in South Korea (Asia). Now I completely understand this behaviour.
In my country, my neighbour Singapore, and I dare say many if not all countries in Asia, there exists this very traditional, misogynistic and sexist way of thinking, mostly possessed by the "old guard" or older generation.

I won't delve into what caused this, where it originated from, religion in play or politics, but what I will say is, women who play video games are often heavily looked down upon, this IeSF is probably just conforming to the cultural norms here.

I am by no means condoning such behaviour, it makes me very sick. In South East Asia there are tournaments for Dota 2 exclusively for women, I am not sure about the selection criteria, but from the entire team roster you can see that only "pleasant" looking teams have a chance to participate, and then you get the casters saying stuff like "oh come on really? She missed that? I guess this is what happens when you put a woman behind the mouse and keyboard"

I've had enough of this, the only way this is going to change is if we somehow manage to change this draconic mindset.

 

[UltimatheChosen]

tl;dr

It's, (from my understanding) a private thing; Meaning they can do whatever they damn well please. That said, if you're going to complain about this complain about the, for example purposes only, Boyscouts. That's stuff a girl could do, but they can't. Why? Because it's a private organization that along with women bans homosexuals.

You can believe what you want about it, but they don't need to change for you. You can make your own tournament if you want to put your own rules or lack there of on it.



Tl:dr: All I hear is "wah". They can do what they want. Make your own to set your own rules/regulations.

Someone else has pointed out this tournament policy on women participants conflicts with Blizzard's EULA agreement.

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/eula.html

Game and Service Features.
ii.Game Features:
2. Community Tournaments: In order to support local e-sports tournament activities, Blizzard hereby grants you a limited, revocable license and right to organize and host small, community tournaments, or a series of tournaments utilizing certain Games ("Community Tournaments") subject to your compliance with the following conditions:
f.The rules of the Community Tournament must promote fairness such that skill in playing the Game is what determines who will win or lose a match in the Community Tournament.

I'm not so sure that clause actually helps in this situation, because that refers to winning or losing specific matches.

In this case, it's not that the rules are set up in a way that women are more likely to lose matches-- it's that they can't compete in the first place, so they can't win or lose.

Blizzard can (and probably should) take a stand on this, though. They might also want to update that EULA.

 

[Bke]

I must say this is incredibly worrying, so my main question is: what can we as the average gamer do about it? I suppose the most obvious option would be to deny personal recognition to this IeSF as a legitimate esports body, however I don't see how else we could change this attitude since, as has been mentioned, they are a private institution.

Also, a point of order, western culture is just as sexist, even today. And it was only through decades (technically centuries cause french revolution spawned the movement) of effort that we've come to /begin/ dismantling archaic social values. and even then its still not perfect, we still have vast degrees of sexism in places where it really counts e.g. the workplace. So it is poor philosophical practice to exclaim how sexist these Asian cultures are compared to our own from a "traditional" standpoint when we too are at fault.

*Edit*

I have emailed (opened a support ticket under account issues) Blizzard and requested they consider adding a gender based discrimination clause to their EULA. I suggest we all do the same

 

[Stu35]

Most hilarious excuse I've ever seen.

Segregating actual sports (and nothing anybody says will ever convince me that eSports are sports, in the same way that Darts, Poker, Pool, Association Football, American Football, Golf, and a whole bunch of other shit, aren't real sports as far as I'm concerned) happens because if you had mixed (for example) 100 metre sprinting, then there'd just be no women competing in 100 metre sprinting - not because they didn't want to, but because the fastest ever woman on earth at 100m (Florence Griffith-Joyner, holds the womens 100m record 10.49 seconds) would not have made it out of the heats at a mens Olympic event.

That's not sexism, that's pure and simple fairness - let them compete in their own events so that they actually get to win something.

You can't claim the same thing with video games.

 

[Ragnar47183]

Ok but do we really need 2 different threads about the exact same thing?

 

[Majinash]

If it were up to me, I'd have it all of "e-sports" removed. But that's wishful thinking.

Is there a reason for this? I'm curious because yours doesn't seem to be the only post with this sentiment.

 

[Geisterkarle]

Update:

The gender restriction rule has been removed, we thank everyone who took part in this process.

http://tournaments.peliliiga.fi/summer14/tournaments/view/asms14-hsquali
IeSF stepped back quite fast!

 

[Deadcyde]

[quote/] A culture that finds this acceptable but not the respectful competition between men, women, and people of all genders should never be seen as legitimate.[/quote]

Agreed, besides, are they afraid to be beaten by a girl? I'm not. When i play against the best i expect them to be the best. Not the best guy or girl, the best. I don't care if they're lvl 12 gender fluid dragon bunny of the 9th dimension. If they are the best i want to play against them (or watch them play at least)

but the flaw here is you're treating these aberrations as the norm. Picking a few examples and calling it a culture reeks of petty generalization.

[quote/] Maleness exists as a default in gaming. When you look at the wall of games in a brick-and-mortar store or a digital storefront, the protagonists staring back at you are overwhelmingly in that same male 18- to 34-year-old demographic. When the only chance for women to compete is in women-only competitions, it's the equivalent of forcing women to shop only in "the pink section" of entertainment.[/quote]

Sure, clearly you've looked at google play or xbla or steam. I'm beginning to sense this as a personal rant rather then an actual commentary. Also you're mistaking anti consumer marketing for abject sexism. Then blaming it on men.

So thanks for taking an article that could have been a wake up call about how women are treated in e-sports and turning it into a soap box that all professional gamers are evil. /s

Seriously, it's shit like this that sets back any actual solution or even dialogue upon actual problems.

And on a personal note, i always get the sense that these "equality crusaders" don't actually care about gaming. Because in the end, that's what i'm worried about.... Gaming.

 

[owbu]

Is this going to happen? Nope. Too much money on the line to risk by doing the right thing.

Blizzard has been in contact with the organization about the segregation imposed upon tournaments of its card game Hearthstone and understood that it updated the rules "to make it clear that their Hearthstone tournament will be open to all players."

"One of our goals with eSports is to ensure that there's a vibrant and also inclusive community around our games," Blizzard said in a statement provided to Polygon. "We do not allow the use of our games in tournaments that do not support this, and are working with our partners to ensure they share the same goal."

 

[RA92]

tl;dr

It's, (from my understanding) a private thing; Meaning they can do whatever they damn well please. That said, if you're going to complain about this complain about the, for example purposes only, Boyscouts. That's stuff a girl could do, but they can't. Why? Because it's a private organization that along with women bans homosexuals.

You can believe what you want about it, but they don't need to change for you. You can make your own tournament if you want to put your own rules or lack there of on it.



Tl:dr: All I hear is "wah". They can do what they want. Make your own to set your own rules/regulations.

Grow up. It's not 'wah'. It's called feedback and constructive criticism. A private organization doesn't exist in a vacuum, it needs to take into consideration of the society surrounding it. And it looks like IeSF thinks as much too, seeing them peddling back.

 

[NoeL]

Also:

Women only tournaments are okay because... reasons... but male only tournaments are BS (*hinthint* both are BS). Equality much? Either we have limited tournaments or we have free for alls. You cant rip into people for having male only tournaments while at the same time standing there proclaiming that women only tournaments are fine. Makes you look like a hypocrit.

Those "reasons" you speak of were clearly articulated in the article and are perfectly reasonable. By all means argue against those reasons if you disagree, but don't just ignore them for the sake of hearing your own voice.

OT: Great article, though you quote-mined Kim "Eve" Shee-Yoon's manager to prove your point. The article you linked seemed to imply that many, if not most players - male players included - are selected for their "skills and looks." Pro gamers are marketed as rockstars more than athletes, where style and finesse is just as important as raw skill. They also stated their intentions for picking Eve as a protege was to encourage more women to play the game. So while her manager did say that, your article seems to imply that having something pretty to look at was a primary reason for her inclusion in the team. And that doesn't appear to be the case.

Sure, clearly you've looked at google play or xbla or steam. I'm beginning to sense this as a personal rant rather then an actual commentary. Also you're mistaking anti consumer marketing for abject sexism. Then blaming it on men.

So thanks for taking an article that could have been a wake up call about how women are treated in e-sports and turning it into a soap box that all professional gamers are evil. /s

Seriously, it's shit like this that sets back any actual solution or even dialogue upon actual problems.

And on a personal note, i always get the sense that these "equality crusaders" don't actually care about gaming. Because in the end, that's what i'm worried about.... Gaming.

Serious questions here: what part of the article gave you the impression that she was blaming the state of game marketing on "men"? When did she espouse that all professional gamers are evil? You're obviously seeing something that I'm not.

 

[RA92]

[quote/] Maleness exists as a default in gaming. When you look at the wall of games in a brick-and-mortar store or a digital storefront, the protagonists staring back at you are overwhelmingly in that same male 18- to 34-year-old demographic. When the only chance for women to compete is in women-only competitions, it's the equivalent of forcing women to shop only in "the pink section" of entertainment.

Sure, clearly you've looked at google play or xbla or steam. I'm beginning to sense this as a personal rant rather then an actual commentary. Also you're mistaking anti consumer marketing for abject sexism. Then blaming it on men.

So thanks for taking an article that could have been a wake up call about how women are treated in e-sports and turning it into a soap box that all professional gamers are evil. /s



I'm not quite sure where you got that she's blaming all men/professional gamers for the situation. The article was against the establishment only pandering to men, not men themselves, other than those who are sexually harassing female gamers.



And on a personal note, i always get the sense that these "equality crusaders" don't actually care about gaming.[/quote]

Ironically, you accuse her of generalizing and then dabble into it yourself.

Because in the end, that's what i'm worried about.... Gaming.

Don't worry, <url=http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/shitty-toys>no-one is coming to take away your shitty toys.

 

[Lieju]

Women only tournaments are okay because... reasons... but male only tournaments are BS (*hinthint* both are BS). Equality much? Either we have limited tournaments or we have free for alls. You cant rip into people for having male only tournaments while at the same time standing there proclaiming that women only tournaments are fine. Makes you look like a hypocrit.

That's because we are talking about a sport that's traditionally masculine and where women face more scrutiny and hardships in the first place.

If the situation isn't equal in the first place, tournaments where women can feel safer and actually focus on the game are a countermeasure for the inequality in the sport.

They'd get more women in the sport, and can act as a stepping stone to the mixed league.

Ideally, there would be no need for them, but also ideally women would be treated the same by the community.

 

[Mangue Surfer]

I'm confused: There is a "female chess league"? Championship, some extra titles, sure, but league...? I thought there was only one international ranking in chess. Also, IeSF do know that there is no age restriction either? Ranking (aka skill) is the only limiting factor.

There is a female chess league because the average women performance in chess is poor. Last time that I check, the only women capable of compete equally with men are Canadians.
You know what this means? If you do, please post it here. I'm curious.

 

[Blaze the Dragon]

I don't really understand the idea behind segregated chess tournaments either. When it comes to physical sports, I get it. All you have to do is read that story of the top female Tennis player challenging a male tennis player ranked 200th or something, and losing... while the guy was supposedly drunk as well.

There are physical differences between men and women, and ignoring those differences would be unfair, however I see no reason to segregate mental sports like Chess, Poker, and of course eSports.

 

[melkior]

Due the successful lobby of Finnish e-sports Federation and Assembly organizers with other nordic and european e-sports federations, the International e-Sports federation has withdrawn the Gender rule.

http://www.assembly.org/summer14/news/iesf-rule-change

 

[zerabp]

deleted because of the post above me.

 

[mindfaQ]

I don't think it is a thing in eSports. In Dota 2 you very well could become part of a pro team as woman. It just doesn't happen because the numbers of very good female players are comparatively small and they probably have a harder time finding and fitting into a competitive team.