Explain to me how concealed carry protects against a mugging

[eels05]

I've got to say this is one aspect of life in your country I cant wrap my head around.Everyone demanding the right to carry arms in public or at all.

At the end of the day its ironic that the reason you'd need a gun is to protect you from your fellow citizens with guns,and going by your account of the law,you cant even legally protect yourself in a real life situation anyway.

 

[2fish]

Spoiler

While i do think it works off the idea that it will scare muggers away, I often wonder if it doesn't make the muggers move to easier targets aka places where one cannot carry a gun in that city. See schools and the like, these place have big signs saying no guns.

Also if I was a mugger as my job in a gun heavy area I would shoot you then rob you, one more step less risk of you shooting me.

And that's where you would fail. If you're just going to mug someone, you just want them to feel threatened. You don't actually want to kill them. If you shot every person you mugged there's a chance that you would kill one of them. Even if you didn't, you would be an incredibly high priority for the police. They can't have a proven violent criminal on the streets. As a mugger, you would live or die based on anonymity. Or end up in jail.

You don't think I would make a good mugger

Well you are probably right, it isn't my style.

In the end I don't think there is a good answer criminals are good at find loopholes and breaking the law. More guns gives people ability to defend themselves but also more guns for criminals. Fewer guns means less self defense for civilians but harder to get guns for criminals.

I prefer a middle ground people can get guns but must have a background check and take the idiot classes erm gun saftey so they don't end up shooting themselves or leaving the gun where their kid will shoot themself. Better safe than sorry right?

Sorry. I know you really wanted to be a mugger, but I just didn't see it happening.

Exactly. It is illegal for a criminal to own a gun. Even in states with concealed carry, a violent criminal can not buy or own a gun. So where do they get them? Loopholes. Crooked store owners, friends without a criminal record, steal one, the black market. Take your pick.

I'm for background checks and concealed carry permits. Gun safety courses should also be readily available for people to partake in, if not mandatory to purchase guns. We need a reasonable balance. Too bad extremists tend to control the argument.

Incidentally, I went out and shot a friends gun with him once. He was amazed at how careful I was with the gun. Even asked if I ever took a course on gun safety, to which I replied that it was all common sense.

Three basic rules to handling a gun.

1) Always keep the safety on unless you are firing it.
2) Never put your finger on the trigger unless you plan to shoot it.
3) Always keep it pointed at the ground, as though it could go off at any time.

Well we can agree that the extremists on both sides ruin this debate, people who want no guns and people who want the newest military grade weapons to be available to everyone. Why would you need armor piercing bullets?

 

[lostzombies.com]

My roommate carries everywhere he goes except class, citing the high frequency of robberies and muggings of students around our college campus (we get emails about 4-5 incidents a month). But I don't see how carrying a gun in a holster under your jacket is going to help you:

1) You can't legally draw your gun on someone first unless they pose legitimate threat to you or a third party. For example, if my roommate sees three young men walking behind him at night on his way home, and he whips out his gun, he can get arrested and lose his CC license

2) The mugger has the element of surprise. So long as he has a firearm and pulls it on you first, you're screwed. The average person cannot outdraw someone who has the jump on them, and any idiot who thinks he's John Wayne will likely end up on the pavement bleeding out.

3) Once the mugger takes your stuff and leaves the immediate area, you cannot follow him and legally shoot him. At this point, he is no longer a threat to your safety and you could be charged with second-degree murder.

So at what point in this crime is a CCW going to help you? If anything, its more likely to be taken from you along with your wallet and other valuables. CCWs are useful in that they could stop a mass shooting attempt where the shooter has many targets, but I don't see how they are useful in common street robberies or carjackings, unless someone with experience otherwise can enlighten me.

Muggers target the weak and those who look like easy prey. Guns give little people big egos and fake confidence so they walk tall and act hard. A mugger won't normally go for those who look confident.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Anything which encourages people to carry (and justify it by using) weapons is unwise in my opinion... I think it's a case where ends just doesn't justify the means. In the UK, when people get mugged the chances are extremely small that the assailant will pull a gun on you (though I know someone it has happened to). In most cases of common mugging weapons aren't used or even shown. If people were allowed to conceal carry knives then I don't think it would remain that way. Casualties from violent crime would probably increase on both sides, assailants and victims alike.

This might just be me but I also don't believe someone deserves death for robbing or attempting a wallet. I think the average person, in that position, would be more likely to kill or seriously injure their would be attacker accidentally if they were to attempt to use a gun or knife to defend themselves. Plus having a legal opportunity to carry weapons around is just an invitation for more feral youth gangs to openly carry weapons, this is the last thing the UK needs.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

My roommate carries everywhere he goes except class, citing the high frequency of robberies and muggings of students around our college campus (we get emails about 4-5 incidents a month). But I don't see how carrying a gun in a holster under your jacket is going to help you:

1) You can't legally draw your gun on someone first unless they pose legitimate threat to you or a third party. For example, if my roommate sees three young men walking behind him at night on his way home, and he whips out his gun, he can get arrested and lose his CC license

2) The mugger has the element of surprise. So long as he has a firearm and pulls it on you first, you're screwed. The average person cannot outdraw someone who has the jump on them, and any idiot who thinks he's John Wayne will likely end up on the pavement bleeding out.

3) Once the mugger takes your stuff and leaves the immediate area, you cannot follow him and legally shoot him. At this point, he is no longer a threat to your safety and you could be charged with second-degree murder.

So at what point in this crime is a CCW going to help you? If anything, its more likely to be taken from you along with your wallet and other valuables. CCWs are useful in that they could stop a mass shooting attempt where the shooter has many targets, but I don't see how they are useful in common street robberies or carjackings, unless someone with experience otherwise can enlighten me.

I don't know why you want it explained to you when you clearly already understand that they don't.

As to why people THINK concealed carry protects them, it gives people a comforting false sense of security is why they do it. But that doesn't mean they're actually more secure. For the reasons you mentioned, they're probably less secure.

Also, if you pull a gun on a person who's mugging you and they get caught, they will virtually always bring it up -- even if it's pretty clear that you were within your rights to do so. Even if statutes make it impossible to profit from crime by countersuing (not always the case), you look like the victim, which is good for both judges and juries.

 

[DarkRyter]

Gunfights are cool, man.

The more badass ************ survives. Whether it be the mugger or muggee depends on the inherent badass within them.

 

[WolfThomas]

I live in Australia so I don't much about the issue. But I'd assume that a gun would be a good deterrent for muggers with knives and or that are just a group of people.

I also read something where a guy said when he was walking on the streets he usually removed the gun from the holster and kept it in his coat pocket with his hand on it, in that case he could shoot the mugger through the coat while pretending to get his wallet.

 

[Saltyk]

It does seem like it could be useful on occasion, but I think his points are fairly valid, and it does seem like it'd just exacerbate the situation most of the time.

Guns are illegal here but god knows if I were in a country like America where any twit can carry, I'd prefer to have a gun than not, if they come at me with intent to kill I'd rather have a slim chance than none.

I'm not pointing fingers at you, but rather I'm just using your comment as an example...

Does anyone else feel like some people seem to be under the impression that America is gun-crazy and filled with violence? I have NEVER seen a gun outside of a police officer's holster and then I've only seen it recently with a police officer friend of my brother and before that in elementary school at an assembly (which was a nice while ago, I'm in college now). My point is, except possibly for certain areas, America is one of the safest countries in the world. WE ARE NOT GUN-CRAZY, please listen to me.

Thank you for reading, please go on.

I never claimed that everybody in America is a gun crazy loon, but any twit CAN in fact buy a gun, here in England it takes a special kind of criminal to have one (one that pl;ans to use it), in America anyone can own a gun, anyone, here you might get mugged at knife point or even bare hands, wheras in america any low class filth can pull a gun on you if they want your money.

America is one of the safest countries in the world

That is a damn lie and you know it, check just how often someone is killed or injured by gunfire in your country, it really is absurdly high for a country that isn't an active warzone.

Now obviously most places aren't that bad in America, but there are parts where walking down the street wearing the wrong shirt WILL get you killed.

Not just anyone can walk off the street and buy a gun. Legally. I'm sure there are places you could, but any store that wants to keep it's license to sell guns (also avoid fines, jail time, etc) will require a background check. That's the law of the land. Not even gun rights advocates have a problem with that law.

As for those places where wearing the wrong shirt will get you killed, that's not entirely fair. Even we gun crazy loons think that is bad. But that's what happens in areas with high gang crime. I believe you are thinking of the Crips and the Bloods specifically, but that might happen in other gangs as well. How do you prevent that? I don't know. But I do know that killing people over perceived differences is dumb as hell.

snip
And, this may come as no surprise, but I support Castle Doctrines. Why should I have to run in my own home?

snip

I too support Castle Doctrines. I say this because some may not know what that means.

"To a Man/Woman, his house is a Castle. He/she rules all he/she surveys in their Castle."

In short, I heard of a story out of Britain where a burglar was tripped by a home owner IN HIS OWN HOME and the robber sued and won. If you can escape YOUR OWN HOME THAT IS BEING ROBBED you legally have to. In most parts of America (with sensible (meaning follows the constitution) gun laws) , I can legally shoot a person breaking into my home, even if later they find out the robber was unarmed I still would not be in trouble for defending my Castle. In Kansas, I believe (need to look it up again), I can shoot trespassers under certain circumstances (not just for trespassing but like if they do have a weapon or make threats, again I have not looked up the statute since I moved home).

Wait. That's the Castle doctrine? I just thought it meant we had to have one giant sand castle on a beach...

It's funny, a friend of mine said that if I found a guy stealing my TV, I would just look at him and say, "Really, man? Come on..." Generally just making him feel bad.

I heard of a case that was almost that bad. A woman saw some teens in her back yard. They weren't suppose to be there and she was washing dishes, so she tapped on the window with a knife and they all ran off. Somehow the police got involved (she might have called them) and they told her that she could have gotten in trouble for that. Apparently, tapping the window with a knife was threatening or something along those lines.

But it wasn't that long ago that we were like that in America. That's why the Castle Doctrine has spread so much. There's not a person alive who doesn't think it is dumb that defending yourself in your own home can make you a criminal.

 

[DTWolfwood]

so long as you are trained to draw the weapon effectively. Otherwise it is completely pointless to carry a concealed gun.

 

[Saltyk]

Spoiler: SNIP

While i do think it works off the idea that it will scare muggers away, I often wonder if it doesn't make the muggers move to easier targets aka places where one cannot carry a gun in that city. See schools and the like, these place have big signs saying no guns.

Also if I was a mugger as my job in a gun heavy area I would shoot you then rob you, one more step less risk of you shooting me.

And that's where you would fail. If you're just going to mug someone, you just want them to feel threatened. You don't actually want to kill them. If you shot every person you mugged there's a chance that you would kill one of them. Even if you didn't, you would be an incredibly high priority for the police. They can't have a proven violent criminal on the streets. As a mugger, you would live or die based on anonymity. Or end up in jail.

You don't think I would make a good mugger

Well you are probably right, it isn't my style.

In the end I don't think there is a good answer criminals are good at find loopholes and breaking the law. More guns gives people ability to defend themselves but also more guns for criminals. Fewer guns means less self defense for civilians but harder to get guns for criminals.

I prefer a middle ground people can get guns but must have a background check and take the idiot classes erm gun saftey so they don't end up shooting themselves or leaving the gun where their kid will shoot themself. Better safe than sorry right?

Sorry. I know you really wanted to be a mugger, but I just didn't see it happening.

Exactly. It is illegal for a criminal to own a gun. Even in states with concealed carry, a violent criminal can not buy or own a gun. So where do they get them? Loopholes. Crooked store owners, friends without a criminal record, steal one, the black market. Take your pick.

I'm for background checks and concealed carry permits. Gun safety courses should also be readily available for people to partake in, if not mandatory to purchase guns. We need a reasonable balance. Too bad extremists tend to control the argument.

Incidentally, I went out and shot a friends gun with him once. He was amazed at how careful I was with the gun. Even asked if I ever took a course on gun safety, to which I replied that it was all common sense.

Three basic rules to handling a gun.

1) Always keep the safety on unless you are firing it.
2) Never put your finger on the trigger unless you plan to shoot it.
3) Always keep it pointed at the ground, as though it could go off at any time.

Well we can agree that the extremists on both sides ruin this debate, people who want no guns and people who want the newest military grade weapons to be available to everyone. Why would you need armor piercing bullets?

It's those damn deer. They started buying bullet proof vests and stockpiling weapons. It's a war-zone out there in the forest. I heard the President is considering sending troops to deal with the problem, but it's not a very popular idea. We haven't had military operation on our soil since the Civil War. Few are willing to change that. In the meantime, those brave hunters are our only hope.

Seriously, I don't know. Some might argue that we need the ability top "topple our government" if the need should ever arise. I find that less than realistic. Even with armor piercing bullets, they would still have stealth bombers and the like. Though, it would be awesome to own a tank... At it would rush hour so much easier.
A man can dream.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

It does seem like it could be useful on occasion, but I think his points are fairly valid, and it does seem like it'd just exacerbate the situation most of the time.

Guns are illegal here but god knows if I were in a country like America where any twit can carry, I'd prefer to have a gun than not, if they come at me with intent to kill I'd rather have a slim chance than none.

I'm not pointing fingers at you, but rather I'm just using your comment as an example...

Does anyone else feel like some people seem to be under the impression that America is gun-crazy and filled with violence? I have NEVER seen a gun outside of a police officer's holster and then I've only seen it recently with a police officer friend of my brother and before that in elementary school at an assembly (which was a nice while ago, I'm in college now). My point is, except possibly for certain areas, America is one of the safest countries in the world. WE ARE NOT GUN-CRAZY, please listen to me.

Thank you for reading, please go on.

I never claimed that everybody in America is a gun crazy loon, but any twit CAN in fact buy a gun, here in England it takes a special kind of criminal to have one (one that pl;ans to use it), in America anyone can own a gun, anyone, here you might get mugged at knife point or even bare hands, wheras in america any low class filth can pull a gun on you if they want your money.

As I've already stated, I was using your comment as an example, I've got to think of a different way to state this, this is the 50,000th time someone has gotten defensive when I said I wasn't referring to them specifically... anyways.

"in america any low class filth can pull a gun on you if they want your money." You are emphasizing my point by stating that you consider America to be a violent place when it really isn't.

America is one of the safest countries in the world

That is a damn lie and you know it, check just how often someone is killed or injured by gunfire in your country, it really is absurdly high for a country that isn't an active warzone.

Now obviously most places aren't that bad in America, but there are parts where walking down the street wearing the wrong shirt WILL get you killed.

It isn't a 'damn lie', spaz, you are just exaggerating because you hear about it more often. The media loves making things out to be worse than they are. Have you ever even been to America? Please stop makings assumptions.

 

[Dags90]

First, nobody said Americans are gun-crazy.

I'm saying Americans are gun crazy. I mean, we're the number one per capita owner of guns with almost 90 per 100 people.[footnote]http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/publications/by-type/yearbook/small-arms-survey-2007.html[/footnote] That's a lot of guns.

 

[Gahars]

I think the idea is that if everyone, or just a lot of people, carry concealed weapons, it'll make would be muggers and other criminals more apprehensive, since anybody they attack, including sweet, innocent granny, could be packing heat and shoot them in the face.

Paranoia's a powerful weapon, after all.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

It does seem like it could be useful on occasion, but I think his points are fairly valid, and it does seem like it'd just exacerbate the situation most of the time.

Guns are illegal here but god knows if I were in a country like America where any twit can carry, I'd prefer to have a gun than not, if they come at me with intent to kill I'd rather have a slim chance than none.

I'm not pointing fingers at you, but rather I'm just using your comment as an example...

Does anyone else feel like some people seem to be under the impression that America is gun-crazy and filled with violence? I have NEVER seen a gun outside of a police officer's holster and then I've only seen it recently with a police officer friend of my brother and before that in elementary school at an assembly (which was a nice while ago, I'm in college now). My point is, except possibly for certain areas, America is one of the safest countries in the world. WE ARE NOT GUN-CRAZY, please listen to me.

Thank you for reading, please go on.

First, nobody said Americans are gun-crazy. But there isn't anywhere in America where you can't have a gun, provided it's licensed and registered. We have tons of hunters. We also have tons of guns. You're right in saying that not all of us are gun nuts, but there are a fair number of people with guns who can and will use them. Maybe you just live in a relatively secure area, but a lot of places aren't like that.

I am American. I've seen some guns. Held a few before. Haven't shot one yet, but I need to learn soon. My dad has a Ruger in excellent condition, sights are straight and everything.

No offense, but you stating that I live in a relatively secure area emphasizes that you perhaps don't and thus you don't see that in most places getting mugged at gunpoint isn't an issue. Yes, some places have groups of people who hunt, but so do European countries.

I don't understand why everyone singles out America so much, it isn't a dangerous violent country and if you disagree then you are either misinformed or should consider moving.

 

[TonyVonTonyus]

But I don't see how carrying a gun in a holster under your jacket is going to help you

Even if it doesn't help in any way it still gives him a feeling of security. I would feel safer if I had a gun on me all the time. Also if a mugger knows that a lot of people in the area carry guns on them he'll be less prone to mug there. If I were a mugger I'd want to rob people who don't have guns, no matter what the law about them are.

You could probably tell if he had a gun holstered to his waist under his jacket, too. People who have guns concealed are like undercover cops. They always have an odd way of walking because they have holsters and usually those large belts.

 

[Double A]

True, they will pull first.

You give them your wallet and anything valuable you have on you. And when they have their back turned, you whip out your pistol and get them to drop their weapon. Or, you could just shoot him dead. It's not like he's gonna be able to testify against you, and you can just say you drew first.

 

[Sacman]

It's even stupider here in California where you can only use a weapon that is considered an equal threat to what the other person is using... like if they have a knife you can't use a sword you have to use a knife...<.<