Extra Credits: No Redeeming Value

[ayanematrix]

My only problem with this theory is that the story was always meant to show that Kratos was not redeemable; at least, not truly (which is why I wasn't fond og GoW III's ending). In Jaffe's original idea for the series (which he revelaed in an interview), Kraots was basically going to become the "God-Killer," and was going to proceed on a rampage through the rest of the Mythologies of the world, starting with Norse mythology, if I remember correctly. Basically, he would have become so far removed from his original "Trying to be redeemed" self, but the concept of a truly evil character, one who gives no thought to his actions, and only does them because he deems it necessary to make himself feel better, would have, in a way, worked. It would have shown, instead, that one evil is less than another evil, and that the lesser of those two is the best choice.

Or it would have been a muderous muscley man running around comitting deicide. Either, really.


Now, for GoW II, Barlog had a different idea. In Barlog's God of War, at the end of the series, Kratos was to become Death personified; he was to become the Grim Reaper, with his Blades becoming sickles chained to his arms. Essentially, it would be (from what I can tell), both a reward and punishment: He has achieved a feat so great that reality itself made him into an absolute being (Death personified, something no-one, excluding him, can escape), but it is also a punishment, as he is now forever bound to this duty of being the Reaper, and can never find peace with himself. He would be bound to the chaotic nature that drove him to this in the first place, but would be undefeatable.

Neither ending inspires much in the way of empathy from the players, and the one from GoW III, well, "Critical Miss" did a comic about it which stated it better that I ever could.

No matter what, though, I still think the idea works; Kratos, from what I can tell, wasn't supposed to be redeemable. He was supposed to be on the right path in game 1, but by game 2, his insanity was supposed to be taking over; basically, because the gods didn't take away the memories. In GoW II, Kratos is to have snapped completely, not because he didn't get what he wanted, but because he no longer had, as you said, a goal. It was the goal that kept him sane, and without it, he fell to madness.

Simply put, in GoW 1 we control a sane, extraordinarily desperate, and unstable man. After that, we control a psychopath, one who has fallen into the depths of a broken psyche, and one who can never escape.

At least, that's how I see it.


I did enjoy the video though, else I wouldn't have written such a long response to it.

^^ This pretty much sums up what I thought of the series and it's storytelling in general.

Also, if you notice, nearly any sequel, good or bad, tends to follow this sort of progression. Thinking back, the same thing is currently happening with the horror game genre, which the previous Extra Credits talked about.

 

[JamesStone]

Yes, it`s true: Kratos is a murderer and a prick, but that`s what makes the story special: a anti-hero with a infinite amount of rage. I tought that you would talk about the ending in GOW 3, that I personally think that is touching.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Having only ever heard about the GoW storyline from other people, I have to say I don't feel like playing the games anymore. That sort of potential lost in order to strengthen the combat of the game play and the craziness of the main character is mildly depressing.

Really strange to think about in such detail.

Been following you guys since the first screwattack video, love it!

Which was called what, exactly? I searched "Extra Credits" and variations thereof on ScrewAttack, but I didn't find any of James Portnow or Daniel Floyds' work. :/

http://screwattack.com/user/Daniel-Floyd/videos

BOOM!

 

[PrimaVita]

I have thoroughly enjoy your video game critics. Keep at it.

 

[squid5580]

Wow...people actually play God of War for the storytelling...Seriously?

Every game I play I play for the story. Every single one.

That is just sooo wrong. Every game should be just start it up and let the slaughter begin until you hit the 10 hour mark and then it is over. How could that not be fun?

You better be joking, or I'm just going to facepalm.

I hope so too. Otherwise I am going to get brain damage facepalming myself.

 

[chaos order]

to be honest i didnt like GOW. ive tried on multiple occasions to beat it, but i dont even make it out of athens before i go IM BORED.

 

[MarsProbe]

Wow...people actually play God of War for the storytelling...Seriously?

Every game I play I play for the story. Every single one.

That is just sooo wrong. Every game should be just start it up and let the slaughter begin until you hit the 10 hour mark and then it is over. How could that not be fun?

You better be joking, or I'm just going to facepalm.

Indeed. If this was the template for all games in existence, there wouldn't be much variety. Consider the people who like, for example, golf or football sims - they won't be playing those games through any desire to participate in 10 hours of slaughter.

Then, even in those games that are composed mainly of ending the life of other living things, you can bet there will always be a reason you are doing so. While there as some games where the story isn't quite as important, you still need something there to drive you forward. The "story" of Bayonetta was hardly a masterpiece of narrative, but without any reason to be doing what you're doing, the cutting through of countless "angels" would soon have likely ended up being a rather directionless enterprise.

 

[RowdyRodimus]

No offence intended but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Not everything is made with a deep message, sometimes something is done just because it looks cool and is fun. Now, I'm not saying that works with a deep meaning aren't important but a work without a deeper meaning than have fun being a god killer can be just as valid.

It's almost as if we are so upset that games might not be accepted by certain segments of the media as art that we try to make every game into something that it might not be intended to be so we can say "look at this, this is classical storytelling so it is art".

 

[Michael Jaynes]

Wow...people actually play God of War for the storytelling...Seriously?

Every game I play I play for the story. Every single one.

Go watch a movie then, read a book. They tell better stories, 100% of the time. Whenever games try to tell stories, they fail spectacularly or, at the very best of cases, deliver a story that's passable enough to swallow. There ARE exceptions but that's what they are. Exceptions to the RULE. Disagree? Watch out for Other M, soon...very soon.

Did you pay any attention to the video? That's the point - there is potential for games to tell equal if not better stories than film and literature. I can think of several games off the top of my head whose stories I still remember more vividly than most of the films I've seen this year, with the exception of Scott Pilgrim and Inception. For example, Bioshock, Morrowind, Final Fantasy VI and VII, the first God of War (even before watching this video), Star Ocean II, etc. Because I was involved with the storyline on a more intrinsic level than simply reading or watching it unfold, it was more meaningful to me and has stuck with me.

I can only hope that developers don't have this same attitude of "let's never even bother with storylines in our games because what's the fucking point". If there's no point in attempting to have decent storytelling in your game, every game in each genre might as well be identical.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I really should play GoW 1 at some point; It's PS2, correct?

Your description of Greek tragedy was pretty much spot on. I'd also point out the links between Kratos and Heracles, who was arguably a rising hero (through his tasks) and then forced to kill his family by Hera. Ajax works just as well though, as you pointed out.

I would say that entering the head of Kratos is meant to show us how viseral his rage is against Zeus, but that's about the only defense I can come up with to defend it. You shouldn't really enter the head of a Greek hero, as half of what they serve is to teach us the faults of man. After all, there's usually a demigod of some kind, so if they can make those mistake, we bloody well better not!

Another good discription of Greek tragedy is that every mortal man lives at the whim of the Gods. If Zeus, Apollo or Athena decided to fuck around with you, then there wasn't a damn thing you could do about it. Wich was basically the situation Kratos was in in the first game.

Kratos is very much a mad dog. The only difference is that in the first game he had a master - he actually respected the Gods and only hated Ares - and in the sequels he was a mad dog without a master.

This could've worked as a narritive if it was well handled.

 

[WanderingFool]

My thoughts on the matter are that Kratos was seeking not so much redemption, but peace of mind. He thought the gods would remove the memories of him killing his family once he accomplished his task, but once he found out they wouldnt (or couldnt), he lost all hope, and attempted suicide. Now I think had they let Kratos just die there, it would have been the perfect end to the Greek Tragedy. But because they (and I should point out im talking about the devlopers) decided to instead have the gods save him and turn him into a god, they prevented the Tragedy's completetion.

Now because Kratos would never have the memories of killing his family erased, he had to try and distract himself, and because the gods were foolish (or stupid) enough to make him a god, he than abused his power. One way to look at it is that he is detroying and conquring the other god's worshipers because he is seeking some kind of retubution for them not helping him (by removing the memories). Another could be that he really doesnt care about anyone else, anymore. So when his powers are taken away, Kratos seeks revenge because A) he was taking a passive form of vengence against the other gods, by instead of killing them, taking their cities and worshipers B) seeking Zues' death because of some weird plot envolving a cycle where son kills father, and Kratos turns out to be Zues' son, and wants revenge for that reason C) because he is a mindless killing machine with little disregard for anyone but himself or his people (he still consideres the Spartan people his people).

And of course, GOW3 was just the part 2 to the GOW2 story of revenge, but they now allow Kratos some form of inner peace by the Muffin that was Pandora. So finally obtaining peace from the memories of killing his family, he kills himself so hope would leave his body and go to the world... or something like that.

So, Im not sure what the last two paragraphs contributed to what I was getting at, but basically, You say there is no redeeming qualities about Kratos or the story of God of War from 2 on, and that they fail to be a true Greek Tragedy. I think that GOW was the only one made for Greek Tragedy, and 2 & 3 were just sequals made for money, not say that they are bad, or that thats a bad thing. But I think its apparent to anybody who simply watches Kratos, to realize that after GOW1, he became a soulless husk, fueled by rage and hatred, and that the last bit in GOW3 where you are inside Kratos' mind and you find him inner peace, was just an awful bit, as its like saying everything Kratos did after becoming a god up until that point, is forgiven and everything is better now.

Lets just make it clear, After GOW1, Kratos is a Jerk. An awesome bloody badass jerk, but a jerk none of the less. Hell, Kratos was a jerk before GOW1 even started, ask the captain.

[sub]cookie if you get that last part![/sub]

 

[Atmos Duality]

The whole reason I didn't bother with finishing the series boiled down to 8 minutes. Bravo Extra Credits.

I've played better spectacle combat games (that don't rely so extensively on those fucking worthless QTEs) and shit better stories out on Word Perfect when I was in grade school.

Violence for the sake of violence justifies many a character's actions, but that will in no way add depth to a story.
If developers are ever going to improve, they need to learn that in order to tell a GOOD COMPELLING STORY, they need to stop relying so heavily on the action movie cliche's and one-liners.

The ending for God of War 3 sounds like it was trying to pin the blame for Kratos's psychotic killing spree squarely on the players, but I could be reading too deeply into that.

EDIT: Forget one important word, take the heat.
Don't my mistake kids, pre-read your posts before posting them!

 

[Flac00]

Good video man, keep it up. Your arguments seem much more levelheaded and thought out then most. Still gotta compete with the "Fatantisocialguy" or whatever he is called on Youtube. That guy has some prowess. Though Video games wont become art until maybe 2020, if not later. Too early to be counted as it then. All mediums had to go through the stage of standing up and yelling "WE ARE TO BE TAKEN SERIOSLY". Good video.

 

[Blackpapa]

The first game was supposed to be great, the second two were follow-ups that were supposed to sell good.

Games are a unique media because they combine so many aspects of other media in one. A book would pretty obviously fail without a decent story, but a game has redeeming value in gameplay, graphics and other aspects. In addition, let's be honest, publishers consider gamers to be full-out retards. The people who read ancient drama are DEFINITELY NOT the same people who play god of war.

Sure, YOU may appreciate the skillful analogy and a well-crafted story, but for (partly wild guess, partly research) 80% of the players the shortcomings of the storyline don't matter if there's a lot of splattery gore and fun gameplay.

Also, it's not a surprise publishers want to milk the franchise as much as they can. When they get to make the decisions, they NEVER, EVER, ABSOLUTELY NEVER stress that the game has to have a rich, intelligent and well-written storyline. It's simply not a selling point. You can't show off your philosophical bastard and nietzsche wannabe character, however well written, on a magazine ad. The fact that the story is hard to market and can only be appreciated AFTER buying the game contributes to the current situation of retard-friendly games.

In addition, storylines are very subjective things. You can give a coder a checklist and, even if he hates the job so much he'd rather experience prison rape for the duration of his work day, he will still create code that does indeed do those features. On the other hand a writer has to WANT to create a good storyline. If he creates a sub-standard piece of poo like most games have, he won't get paid less or more than if he'd write a magnificent, book-worthy script that would put Planescape Torment to shame. In fact, if he'd do the ambitious option he'd probably spend less time with the kids at home. Why bother, gamers being retards?

 

[Blackpapa]

<double post. blame my browser>

 

[Aisaku]

"No Redeeming Value"

For a moment I thought the video's title "No Redeeming Value" referred to the lack of continuity, payoff between sequels in a franchise. Like how Resident Evil 4-5 have been basically 'flavor of the week' with no real relevance to the story's overarching plot save for the characters. Then again RE is another franchise in which storytelling isn't its selling point.

On God of War:

I know full well I'm not in the demographic for GoW 3 but really, the time I picked it up at at a demo station in a store, I couldn't help feel queasy at the amount of unmitigated violence it delivers. Mind you, I'd see a gory movie just fine. But doing it myself... ewww.

 

[squid5580]

Wow...people actually play God of War for the storytelling...Seriously?

Every game I play I play for the story. Every single one.

That is just sooo wrong. Every game should be just start it up and let the slaughter begin until you hit the 10 hour mark and then it is over. How could that not be fun?

Try going on a rampage in GTA for 10 hours. No missions just start killing civilians and cops and running around the map killing people for 10 hours. It will get boring long before the ten hour mark

Or just play Crackdown 2 offline for 10 hours lol.

 

[KO4U]

Still feels like you're preaching to the choir, but your argument is cool headed and thoughtful-just what is lacking from most who promote games as art.

 

[DamienHell]

Best series on the escapist.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

It's the curse of Popularity though. Happens in most art-forms.
(Yes, Gaming is an Art, shush)
Alien - Alien 4 shows it, as does most sequels.

Even, and it's rare you'll get to hear me say this, but Doctor Who does it.

The Weeping Angels in Blink were so Greek, even resembling the Furies that they HAD TO RETURN. PEOPLE DEMANDED IT.

Not realising that by bringing them back, they were automatically setting them up for a fall.

See, The Time of Angels couldn't have been scarier than {i]Blink[/i] any more than Species 8472 could be scarier than the Borg. In fact Trek is one of the worst at this with each series turning the old series bad guys into pussies.

Did Shakespear ever write Romeo and Juliet 2? Dickens write The Ballad of Fagin?

Stories/Games/Pictures are self-contained works of art. You can't just revisit them.

Unless you change both them and the original. Wicked and Return To Oz work because it's just another view away from Dorothy. American Mcgee's Alice works because it reverses the innocence of Alice.

With GoW ending as it did, one of the only way it could have successfully returned would have been through Kratos's son, who ultimately would have killed Kratos.

But that's not "Test Audience Friendly".

And Test Audience's generally don't know anything because they're specifically brought in not to know anything.

So...

Be original. And please, for God (of war)'s sake, stop pillaging our shrines to nostalgia. Because all you end up doing is desecrating them.