Extra Credits: No Redeeming Value
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Good characters don't need to be philosophical. Some of the best characters out there are completely clueless. And how can you argue that story isn't a selling point when there are plenty of people, on this website and others, who have said that they prefer or want games with a decent story? It?s just not an as big selling point as game play.archont said:
On a different note, the characteristics of a Greek tragedy were a bit off. The character loses his position either by the will of the gods or by hubris or a fatal flaw.
I have a hunch that part of the reason that Kratos was so wonderfully characterized was because he didn't have much of a character behind all of the rage and blood lust. I'm not asking for very deep characters. Just ones that show someone sat down and actually thought about the character's actual personality for more than two minutes.
And to be honest, I feel like they (the writers) missed the point of anti-heroes (in my opinion). Their suppose to despicable, but what makes them interesting isn't just the fact that they are jerks, it?s that they have or had some redeemable or likeable quality. You know you would hate them if you met them in real life, but you can't completely classify them as 'bad' or 'evil'.
opinion [uh-pin-yuhn]MasterV said:
noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second Medical opinion.
4.
Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.
I actually made this point months ago on the boards, but everyone thought I was just "over-analyzing" a game that aspires to be nothing more than "mindless violence."
I'm so glad at the end of the video you articulated what I was then unable to: If we're going to take this stuff seriously, then we HAVE to analyze it. Also, I think it has to be said that at this point in the history of gaming criticism, there is NO SUCH THING as over-analysis. There simply isn't enough being said to qualify as regular analysis, let alone over-analysis. The works of Shakespeare are over-analyzed. Why? Because they've been written about for nigh-on 400 years! Compared with that, gaming criticism hasn't even begun!
I'm so glad at the end of the video you articulated what I was then unable to: If we're going to take this stuff seriously, then we HAVE to analyze it. Also, I think it has to be said that at this point in the history of gaming criticism, there is NO SUCH THING as over-analysis. There simply isn't enough being said to qualify as regular analysis, let alone over-analysis. The works of Shakespeare are over-analyzed. Why? Because they've been written about for nigh-on 400 years! Compared with that, gaming criticism hasn't even begun!
Thats actually a brilliant analogy. And it fits in with the three pillars of tragedy perfectly. GOW1 is the high point, GOW2 is where it succumbs to rage, and GOW3 is where it is left a husk of its original self.rverschoore said:
If there was a reputation meter here, I'd give you bonus points.
Hmm. I see the poor choice of wording on my part now (one important word got omitted in my haste), and I will correct this.Father Time said:
I didn't bother to FINISH the series, because it bored me.
I apologize for the animosity, but I honestly wasn't trying to flame-bait.
I don't know how you guys talked so much about God of War III's ending without acknowledging that he killed himself. Don't get me wrong; you made some good points (I really hated the whole "hope is what makes us strong" thing as well) but Kratos knowing that he is beyond redemption and killing himself for it counts for something.
Also, does anybody think Athena's part in the game was really dumb? I mean, "You killed me, and now I am of a higher existence." What? So wouldn't all of the Gods he killed become of a higher existence? What does that even mean?
Also, does anybody think Athena's part in the game was really dumb? I mean, "You killed me, and now I am of a higher existence." What? So wouldn't all of the Gods he killed become of a higher existence? What does that even mean?
I must say I truly appreciate this series for all that it does for intelligent conversation for my favorite pastime. The well thought out points and meaningful conversation is very refreshing. Having said all of that I was sitting there enjoying all of the well constructed thoughts, and the Matrix "OMG Lag" picture came up and I totally lost it. I didn't hear ANY of the rest of the video because I was laughing so hard. And I had to go back to tell what was said. This in no way distracted from the quality of the video, just though I would mention how well you guys have been illustrating your point.
kratos is still the worst video game protangnist....he killed Hades.....FLIPPIN HADES and all he was trying to do was to put kratos in his place...like did no God or Goddess think "Hey he killed Aries should we do something about it for say uhhh killing him all at once?"
I didn't hold the story against the game so much as this video does considering I just wanted to slay the pantheon and them some.
Does that mean I didn't notice the shifts in narrative? No, I love games with a great narratives but I don't dislike ones that don't either unless the gameplay is up to standard, in God of War's case, it was top-notch.
This must be one of the first videos with a noticeable disagreement from users. Regardless of my views this is still a great and interesting video. Good job.
Does that mean I didn't notice the shifts in narrative? No, I love games with a great narratives but I don't dislike ones that don't either unless the gameplay is up to standard, in God of War's case, it was top-notch.
This must be one of the first videos with a noticeable disagreement from users. Regardless of my views this is still a great and interesting video. Good job.
I agree that GOW could have been an amazing story. It may not be perfect, far from it actually, but I really did like it. I mean, I liked how Kratos totally disregarded the advice and morals every single person tried to force on him. It showed he wasn't just some basic character with a goal so weak a mere plea of forgiveness could turn him around. Most of all I absolutely loved how he killed all those gods. It's the first time I've seen it done in a story but then, i don't read alot of greek god oriented stories so... Still, it usually boils down to "gods are all powerful, know better than we do etc" or "gods are people to, and have their flaws, so we should forgive them, etc". In the end, I appreciate GOW for siding with me in it's idea of how to actually deal with douchebag deities. No forgiveness, no mercy, no awe and worship. Just death.
two things.
1. God of war isn't really a story driven game. It's about playing as a dude that kills gods. I'm pretty sure the story revolves around giving you the opportunity to do so.
2. I would say that Kratos is definitely extremely remorseful at the end of GoW 3. You seem to have left off the fact that
Not that it really takes much away from the argument as a whole, just sort of that one point.
1. God of war isn't really a story driven game. It's about playing as a dude that kills gods. I'm pretty sure the story revolves around giving you the opportunity to do so.
2. I would say that Kratos is definitely extremely remorseful at the end of GoW 3. You seem to have left off the fact that
he kills himself at the end.
I think "God Of War" is pretty much what happens when you have game design dictated by committee and focus groups to be entirely honest. The sad thing is that it sold well, and that is just going to encourage more of the same.
You'll notice that right now a decent number of games try and sell themselves on being banal "meh, who wants to mess around with anything else, when you could be smashing stuff?".
I agree with the general message of this week's "Extra Credit", however I don't think we can entirely blame the industry for this. All the data those people are catering to comes from the gamers themselves, as gaming has become mainstream, the effort spent on the backround, storyline, and similar things has been increasingly wasted and I think game designers are realizing this. As a result you see games actually regressing with each installment like "God Of War" did, another very notable example is Bioware with "Mass Effect 2" rather than making an even deeper RPG experience, they stripped the mechanics way down... granted the storyline remained fairly deep, but the game itself became dumber.
A lot of people tend to view the conflict within the gaming community as between "Hardcore" gamers and "Casual" gamers. I don't see that as being especially accurate, since by definition games like "God Of War" and "Modern Warfare" would fall into many people's definition of hardcore. I think what we're dealing with is a less politically correct seperation between "smart" gamers and "dumb" gamers, with more and more of the latter
coming into the hobby due to the low bar set by the common human denominator as the gaming population increases, and less and less actual intelligence and talent is neeeded to learn how to play.
Before anyone freaks, look at "God Of War". To begin with we started with what can arguably be called a "Greek Tradgedy" as was explained (even if that is not the term I would use). It had a fairly meaningful storyline full of subtext and the development of a one dimensional character. As the new game generation arrived and more people got involved, people cared less about the subtext and just killing stuff, as a result the audience itself turned the series itself into the equivilent of Pro-Wrestling. That is the spectacle of over the top and ridiculous similated violence, held together by a non-plot that exists only to frame and excuse for more violence.... and honestly, people have talked about some of Kratos' dialogue in response to scenes with Athena and the like, if you really think about it both what he says and how he acts is pretty much identical to what one would expect from a pro-wrestler in a "B league" with low standards for everything except the choreography itself.
This is simply my opinion, apologies to those who are offended, but I call it like I see it.
You'll notice that right now a decent number of games try and sell themselves on being banal "meh, who wants to mess around with anything else, when you could be smashing stuff?".
I agree with the general message of this week's "Extra Credit", however I don't think we can entirely blame the industry for this. All the data those people are catering to comes from the gamers themselves, as gaming has become mainstream, the effort spent on the backround, storyline, and similar things has been increasingly wasted and I think game designers are realizing this. As a result you see games actually regressing with each installment like "God Of War" did, another very notable example is Bioware with "Mass Effect 2" rather than making an even deeper RPG experience, they stripped the mechanics way down... granted the storyline remained fairly deep, but the game itself became dumber.
A lot of people tend to view the conflict within the gaming community as between "Hardcore" gamers and "Casual" gamers. I don't see that as being especially accurate, since by definition games like "God Of War" and "Modern Warfare" would fall into many people's definition of hardcore. I think what we're dealing with is a less politically correct seperation between "smart" gamers and "dumb" gamers, with more and more of the latter
coming into the hobby due to the low bar set by the common human denominator as the gaming population increases, and less and less actual intelligence and talent is neeeded to learn how to play.
Before anyone freaks, look at "God Of War". To begin with we started with what can arguably be called a "Greek Tradgedy" as was explained (even if that is not the term I would use). It had a fairly meaningful storyline full of subtext and the development of a one dimensional character. As the new game generation arrived and more people got involved, people cared less about the subtext and just killing stuff, as a result the audience itself turned the series itself into the equivilent of Pro-Wrestling. That is the spectacle of over the top and ridiculous similated violence, held together by a non-plot that exists only to frame and excuse for more violence.... and honestly, people have talked about some of Kratos' dialogue in response to scenes with Athena and the like, if you really think about it both what he says and how he acts is pretty much identical to what one would expect from a pro-wrestler in a "B league" with low standards for everything except the choreography itself.
This is simply my opinion, apologies to those who are offended, but I call it like I see it.
I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I will sit through a game that has some of the worst controls as long as the story is good enough, such as Fragile. I truly do hope that more game developers have an idea of the story they would like to tell when they start down the path of creating a new game otherwise they may as well toss the story out and just make a fun game with graphics and mechanics.MasterV said:
I have played my fair share of marios or sonics etc etc. with little to no story at all other then go here save this. But if I have a choice I will take a game with worse controls and worse graphics that tells a great story. I am pretty sure I am not the only one that feels this way either.
As for playing a game to have fun. Fun is different person to person. My idea of fun is an engaging story that keeps me on the edge of my seat wondering what is going to happen next or how my actions are effecting the outcome.
As for the series being the best on the escapist I would probably agree and disagree to certain degrees. This series best points are that it tosses out ideas that gets many users engaged in discussions. So in that respect I think it is probably the best series. Now while I do find it entertaining I do think some other series may have more humor and such to make them take that category.
Keep it up!
He doesn't kill himself because he is beyond redemption. He kills himself so that mankind can gain the power of hope and grow independent of Gods.Citrus Insanity said:
Which I consider to be very out of character
