Extra Punctuation: Building Sequels Badly

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Dr Spaceman

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It appears to me that at the moment the Deus Ex: Human Revolution guys are doing the right amount of fan service. They're listening to fans on superficial things, things that would immediately turn off an obstinate gamer unwilling to change. The controls are basically the same as they were in the first game. They've given players the option to remove the yellow highlighting of objects. Basically, they're succumbing to the fans on things that don't matter. I haven't heard if JC Denton's going to be in the game, but it seems to me like anything beyond a nod (as Yahtzee says) would be too much considering the timeline of the game.

Take these comments with careful optimism since the game hasn't been released though.
 

HeroKing89

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The Legend of Zelda (GBA)
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (GBA)
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (SNES)
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (GB)-
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (N64)
The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons (GBC)
The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages (GBC)
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past & Four Swords (GBA)
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (GC)
The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures (GC)
The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (GBA)
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (GC)
The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass (NDS)
The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks (NDS)
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

most of those games work more like remakes than sequels
No, no they don't. The atmosphere is different for most of those games, and many of them tell a completely different story then the game that game before it... mostly.

I SAID "each sequel works more like a remake than a continuation or a separate story."

taking the LoZ series as whole, this makes sense.

Next time, think before you post.

TL;DR
link -> get maguffin -> defeat evil/recue princess
I SAID LIKE, NOT IS.
Yes they are similar but that is because it is a long running franchise but they all have different atmosphere and most of them have a different narrative style as well which sets them all apart even if the gameplay is essentially the same. By your logic Silent Hill is all the same because it is essentially

Normal Person >> Collect keys >> Learn dark secret

Silent Hill's gameplay hardly budged an inch in all the years with the exception of SH4 and we all know how that turned out.


That isn't to say trying new things is bad but it is like arguing with final fantasy fans as well who said the series is going downhill since 6 and we all know there are plenty of people who liked the games after. It was another astonishing point that Yahtzee said it was universally agreed that the series got worse but in truth, the games got better. Silent Hill Homecoming and Origins for instance was a far better game then SH4.
 

Dr Spaceman

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Worr Monger said:
Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any.
Personally, I think it's safe to assume Yahtzee himself would say Half Life 2 is better than the first...

I would completely disagree, but that's just me. I'm just hear to point out the contradiction.
I feel like there was an opening at the end of Half-Life for a sequel, one that seems fairly clearly referenced at the beginning of Half-Life 2. (You know, G-Man whisking Gordon away for further adventures at the end of Half-Life). I'd agree it's way more tenuous than the connection in most sequels though.
 

camazotz

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SirBryghtside said:
Um... I preferred Portal 2?

You seem to have missed the point a little bit on the GLaDOS thing, which led to a couple of contradictions. You say that she's changed, which was bad. The reason she's changed is pretty obviously because of Caroline's influence - and yet you then complain that she was in the game, and therefore too similar?

Anyway, that wasn't the main point of the article. But still, I don't see the problem in continuing a story, gameplay idea, whatever, that people liked.

Sequels aren't a bad thing - sure, in movies they're often a little pathetic, but with games, they're a great way to expand on the original's mechanics. Half-Life, Mass Effect, TES - all great games with great sequels, that are often better than the originals.
I don't know what TES is, but Mass Effect and Half-Life were both designed with sequels in mind, so they don't really fit what Yatzhee is talking about. Yahtzee's saying, essentially, that Portal 2 which did not focus on elements of the first game's plot would have had greater potential than to revive and recycle said elements. Put another way: the Portal world might be quite large, but we continue to obsess over one single corner of it.

In a way, what Yahtzee is saying is (I think) true of Portal the First. It does, after all, appear to be an event in the Half-Life universe, a chance to see a completely unrelated tale with nary a Gordon Freeman in sight, showcasing events that take place far, far away from the Combine and all that stuff. Hell, we don't even know the exact time it takes place. Anyway, that analogy seems to be pretty close to the Silent Hill 1/2 example he provides: the point being that you can tell more than one story without having to make the tales in question "continuations" of one another.
 

Angrywyvern

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I agree, only maintaining that a sequel shouldn't lose the spirit and game play of the original in a general sense, especially if there was nothing wrong with it.
I'm fine with things being added on, but practically changing sub-genre to cater to a completely different audience doesn't usually go over well.

Just look at Supreme Commander 2.
 

Neferius

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Yahtzee Croshaw said:
Why not click on the comments for this article and watch my point being proved?
Ahh, Yahtzee... what a masochistic relationship we have.
You keep flailing at us, yet we still keep coming back for more :p
 

FallenMessiah88

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Yeah fans are, for the most part, pretty unreasonable when it comes to dealing with these kinds of things. Hell, I've been the same way too, *cough* Resident Evil 5 *cough*.

At the end of the day, its best for the makers to just do what they wanna do and then let the fantards whine.
 

camazotz

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Dr Spaceman said:
Worr Monger said:
Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any.
Personally, I think it's safe to assume Yahtzee himself would say Half Life 2 is better than the first...

I would completely disagree, but that's just me. I'm just hear to point out the contradiction.
I feel like there was an opening at the end of Half-Life for a sequel, one that seems fairly clearly referenced at the beginning of Half-Life 2. (You know, G-Man whisking Gordon away for further adventures at the end of Half-Life). I'd agree it's way more tenuous than the connection in most sequels though.
Yeah, the first thing that came to mind when I finished Half Life one was "Crap, now I gotta wait for a sequel to see what that's all about."
 

Kurt Horsting

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I'd say that a case of where a sequel is held up in higher regard then the original while using the same characters from the previous title, having the same premise, and gameplay would be things like Marvel vs Capcom 3, Super Street Fighter 4, or StarCraft 2. But competitive games are a whole different beast then story based games. Also I don't think Yahtzee counts those as games anyway.
 

Kimosaber

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Zechnophobe said:
Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any.
I find it interesting how many people have responded to this quote, and then give bad examples! Look at the various points:

1) Wasn't left open for a sequel.
2) The same main characters
3) Story is regarded as better
Duke Nukem 3D. Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Trilby's Notes.
 

AyreonMaiden

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It depends. Sometimes all I want is the same mechanics with a new story. Other times I wanna see a complete revamp. Depends on the game, honestly, and how much I liked about the original. I definitely agree with the fact that games that aren't open for sequels shouldn't get sequels, but then again, what do I know about the true intentions of a developer? Maybe the devs DO have a series planned, but don't know what's gonna happen to their first game, so they make games that end neatly in case they don't get to make sequels for whatever reason.

At any rate, I'd rather deal with an unnecessary Bioshock 2 and maybe be pleasantly surprised than be promised an epic trilogy like Too Human or Advent Rising and watch as it falls flat with the first game.

But what would I know? I'm just a stupid fan. I mean, do critics really think they'll quit bitching when all their complaints are met? They're fans too. Fandoms may not know what they want and they ***** a lot, but I don't think critics truly do either.

This just feels like such a non-issue. People need to get over the fact that Portal is one good game in a world of so fucking many. Why should every game be like Portal?
 

hargablarga

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I don't know about Half-Life, but Mass Effect was definitely a planned series. He is talking about a game that comes out meant to stand on it's own, but is hugely successful, so the creators feel obligated to make a sequel. Case in point, Bioshock 1 and 2. Bioshock came out and was not expected to be the hit that it was, so it ended. You killed the bad guy, the city was saved/destroyed, and it was over. There was no opening for a sequel, but because the game was so successful, they decided to try and expand on something that wasn't really there to begin with.
 

iamultraman

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Well I thought of the Assassin's Creed and Uncharted franchises as counterarguments by the end of your article, but, to be clear, those two are unspectacular in their own regard. When it comes to great, singular achievements, Croshaw makes a good point: never bother making a sequel; and, if such an endeavor is necessary, never listen to the fans. His supporting evidence, in that context, is appropriate. Bioshock 2, in appealing to the fans and their stimuli, simply had more philosophy and more Big Daddies, which is, by face value, precisely what people thought they wanted. But, evidently, that was not true; instead, what was learned from all of this is that deconstructing a great thing into smaller, simpler components--and subsequently using those components to create a piece altogether new--is folly. The whole tryptich--words, emotions, and drama--is instead mutilated and pieced together like a serial killer's ultimatum. There is no one leg of a game that holds it. There is no one brick that holds the entirety of a building, no one root that holds the tree, no one nail on the bedroom floor; it is the whole which shines, which is brilliant, which we cherish. Yet the fans, those removed from the creativities and artistry behind the achievement, focus their attentions on a single aspect that is the most noticeable. In the case of Portal, it was GLaDOS and the companion cube, and the portals itself. And such items clamored for, returned. Perhaps the result is not so bad. Perhaps, in plausible persistence, that this return is satisfactory, and, lacking this, the game would not be satisfactory. Well all in a pig's ear, I say. No new thing was learned by this; the game industry did not improve upon its release; the critics learned no new gesticulations from this; the artists found no new styles from this. All it does is simply exist, and in art simply existing is existence, but not at all. In books, we have likely came onto the last renaissance of technical innovation, after the modernist movement died out; the only frontier left is how much emotion we can tease from human hearts into the words. But games are not quite as developed, and we do not have the same privileges in such experimentation. We still have to push the technical boundaries of games: what we can create, how we develop them through our machinations, and, in the culmination of this, how we will make the system so perfect that every action, every scene becomes purposeful and unwasted, with the audience laughing, or crying at curtain call. We have not achieved this--our precision is too wide--but we can achieve this. So we cannot afford to continue with fluff, if we know all too well that the fluff is insubstantial; if we've resources, we must use them for the benefit of the medium. I could have let Portal 2--and all misfits like it--go, because it amuses, because it amazes, but the spark, the Promothean flame behind its human inspiration, is gone. Art is indeed individualistic passion and derives from no source, except in how we dress and carry it, but other than that its spirit is singular. I think it is time to move away from Aperture Science, and into the vast expanse with a stronger, surer vigor. Often, the only way for art to develop is to rebel against the work of old and to find greater beauty in a different attempt. Sequels, which dwell on the past, improve nothing.

Edit: Man I have no life. But I am utterly convicted that this is true. The only way that this medium will get anywhere is if we allow the game writers creative freedom. Putting on them restrictions, or allowing themselves to restrict their writing in a crazy shoot-the-hostages psychosis, is detrimental to what we can accomplish. Also, this is probably why Melville went insane over the demands of the writing industry: creative restrictions.
 

VondeVon

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Yeah, sequels that expand the world are awesome things. But if I can't have that then I really am very happy to splash about in the same world from a slightly different viewpoint. It's the same reason people buy skins for their phones, I think. It lets them enjoy the old in a new way, if only for a little while.

My only points against Portal 2 (excluding the loading screens, which was just criminal) were the length (I think it was about the second time I had to backtrack because a stupid elevator was closed. Just smash a window and portal up, dammit!) and Wheatley. I only realised his name was Wheatley right towards the end because prior to that he just reminded me so strongly of Bioshock's 'Atlas'. Friendly, helpful and sort-of soothing.

And although obviously a sequel could never have the punch of the original, Portal 2 still gave me quite a few emotional punches. When GLaDOS
broke Wheatley and tossed him aside, only for him to appear later and continue helping me
I finally accepted it as a character 'on my side' instead of an Atlas. Stupid, not sinister.

And oh man, the bit at the end with the elevator? Heh. :D Awesome.

Portal 2 was fun and I'm really glad they made it. So there. :p
 

The Random One

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Still sore about the chase sequences in 7 Days a Skeptic, Yahtzee?

You're right, though. People don't know what they want, and so you need to beat then over the head with it.

Captcha: coronal icysag. N-No, you are a coronal icysag! Jerk.
 

cornmancer

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Godfather part II. Picked up where the previous left off, and where it started, and was infinitely better.

Also, I love Portal 1 to death, but Portal 2 is probably the best game I've ever played.
 

DeliciousCake

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Yahtzee said:
Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any.
Easy:

Just Cause 2
Dead Space 2
Portal 2 :)

Just Cause barely had a plot and did not leave itself open for a sequel whatsoever. It just ended with you killing the bad guy THE END. JC2 has the same main character, Rico "God King" Rodriquez and the story, though not too good, was much better than the original. Bam.

Dead Space 1 had a nice plot, but it didn't feel as expansive and enveloping as DS2. For all we knew, DS1 ended ambiguously: Isaac Clarke could have easily just died of starvation in the cold depths of space or fallen victim to those crazy hallucinations. It didn't seem to have much of a sequel hook at all, except the whole RAWR ZOMBIE SEX thing, which I don't consider a hook. Isaac Clarke is the main character in both. Boom.

Apparently I'm the only person who thought that Chell died or was unconscious at the end of Portal. I thought that with all that high speed shrapnel flying around she died and that was the reason the camera was still at the end. A bit of a tragic ending, Chell only escapes in death, but still. So Portal wasn't exactly open for a sequel. Say what you want, but the story in Portal 2 is far more expansive and interesting than it was in the first game. Sure, you uncover some things about Aperture Science and GLaDOS, but still some things remain mysterious...
(If the company was on the decline, how did they make the money for the NEW Aperture Science after Cave Johnson died? Was it Caroline's Doing? Who was in control while they were putting caroline into an AI? Why did they make GLaDOS into a testing machine rather than copy caroline completely to show the world that immortality was possible? What was the role of the Borealis? Why did they build a giant neurotoxin generator?)
Chell in the main character in both. Booyakasha.

Also, just wanna point out GLaDOS isn't all powerful.
She didn't know (or couldn't stop you) that you were fucking with the neurotoxin or the Sentry production line

Kimosaber said:
Zechnophobe said:
Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any.
I find it interesting how many people have responded to this quote, and then give bad examples! Look at the various points:

1) Wasn't left open for a sequel.
2) The same main characters
3) Story is regarded as better
Duke Nukem 3D. Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Trilby's Notes.
Sweet cow of Moscow, I hope with all my soul that this is indeed true.
 

LobsterFeng

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So I've noticed that you still haven't talked about Wheatley? How do you feel about him? (Yes I know you'll never read this.)

EDIT: Also I just realized that the same thing can be implied to Resident Evil 4, and how so many fans freaked out because they changed it so much, yet they couldn't see that it made the series so much better.