Extra Punctuation: Building Sequels Badly

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funguy2121

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Choppaduel said:
funguy2121 said:
Choppaduel said:
Your avatar. "Uncle Grandfather," from the Adult Swim mini Perfect Hair Forever. There may be a small chance I'm wrong and that it's the old dude from Dragon Ball but...excuse me, my dork is showing.

Anyway, in case you can't tell from his name, Uncle Grandfather (yes that implies exactly what you think it does) is a perv.
Actually, my avatar is Coiffio, the Evil Controller of Cats.

this is Uncle Grandfather



I just realized how off topic we are.

uhhhhh... GO YAHTZEE! YAY! you show those fanboys.
Does that include the cat-man (or is it the man-cat)?
 

Dracosage

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2xDouble said:
Case in point: Final Fantasy. Look at what happened when they stopped creating and started polling: Final Fantasy 12, 13, and 14... None of which deserve numerals. (XI doesn't either, but for different reasons. It's pretty good I guess, so I'll let it slide).

EDIT One thing though:
Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any.
MegaMan 2 and 3.
To my knowledge Final Fantasy 12 was the exact opposite of what fans wanted and they completely departed from the usual method of terrible romance and writing.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I think Half-Life 2 is better than Half-Life. Does that count? I think that's the majority opinion there.

I like sequels in general. Finding out what happens next is always fun for me. I will admit though, sometimes they are done rather poorly.
 

BarberToad

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I was actually talking about Portal 3 with a friend yesterday. I argued that the biggest job a "true" fan will do would be to accept that the franchise has ended. Afterwards I was branded a heretic.

Anyways, too tempted to resist, Idea of how Portal 2 story could have been modified:
I never was convinced when I ran through the old test chambers of the Aperture Facility, why didn't they just do a make-over of the old rooms instead of building a whole new complex each time? Perhaps that's why Cave Johnson went bankrupt.
I think it would have been neater if you played as one of these "War heroes" for when aperture science started: you survive the experiments, end up as a hobo, and in a twisted turn of events you end up getting dragged into the aperture labs during the 60's. It would make more sense and provide subtle hints to what led to the creation of glados, without being too over-bearing.

Did I prove your point Yahtzee? :)
 

dfjdejulio

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Oh come on, are you seriously telling me you don't consider "Final Fantasy X-2" to be a masterpiece when held up next to "Final Fantasy X"?
 

Choppaduel

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funguy2121 said:
Choppaduel said:
funguy2121 said:
Choppaduel said:
Your avatar. "Uncle Grandfather," from the Adult Swim mini Perfect Hair Forever. There may be a small chance I'm wrong and that it's the old dude from Dragon Ball but...excuse me, my dork is showing.

Anyway, in case you can't tell from his name, Uncle Grandfather (yes that implies exactly what you think it does) is a perv.
Actually, my avatar is Coiffio, the Evil Controller of Cats.

this is Uncle Grandfather



I just realized how off topic we are.

uhhhhh... GO YAHTZEE! YAY! you show those fanboys.
Does that include the cat-man (or is it the man-cat)?


including but not limited to. Although, Catman does shoot Coiffio in one of the episodes.

hmmm something else on topic.... Yahtzee should have given a spoiler warning for the Portal 2 coop.
 

Outright Villainy

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Woodsey said:
The "surprise!" argument that's supposed to go in Portal's favour (fuck you Chrome, there is a U in there) doesn't really make sense to me - it seems to work on about the same logic as a game being deemed bad because of the unbearable amounts of hype. And as well all know, that's stupid.

As for Glados not being the same in Portal 2, its implied throughout Portal that she did murder everyone in the facility, whilst her methods to psychologically 'undermine' Chell remain about the same.

I can see the argument about story taking over, but I felt they were simply better balanced, and that the moments where the story 'interrupts' are actually moments used to pace the game and ease your puzzle-induced migraine.

And most people and fans are saying its better than the first.

And BioShock 2 is better than BioShock.

*runs away*
Agreed. On all points. Even the Bioshock part.

That's like what, 6 of us?
 

Xanadu84

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Here is my theory on the great coin that is game innovation.

On one side, there is Innovation/Iteration. On the other is Gimmick/Cliche. Or maybe its 2 coins, Innovation/Gimmick, and Iteration/Cliche. Or maybe...whatever, you get the point.

All games have a little bit of all of the above. What games aspire to contain is innovation and iteration. Innovation is new, exciting ideas that havn't been tried before, and give the player a compelling new experience. Iteration is the use of tried and true approaches that give you a reason to expect that an idea will be enjoyable. Any good game will contain both. Lets take Portal, a universally loved game generally agreed upon to be a huge step forward in innovation. Well, there is still a healthy dose of the kind of iteration that makes people hate on sequels. For starters, there is Narbacular Drop. There was a continuation, and evolution, of pre-established ideas that had already been done elsewhere. Not only that, but it's Valve, you know they playtested the shit out of it before its release. In many ways a sequel is just a second draft of a game where the pool of playtesters includes everyone who bought and spoke out on the first game. What seperates the quality of Portal from a sequel that you hate lies in many things, but the virtue of being a sequel is not one of them. And of course, excellent sequels that excel because of the iteration of an idea still contain healthy doses of innovation. Half Life 2 continued the ideas of the original Half Life, and really most of the original pieces were still there. But it added new ideas, like the Gravity gun. The same pattern of mostly honeing a concept with a hint of new ideas is present in the countless excellent sequels that are better then the original, but it's a stickier area because popular sequels tend to be quite polarizing (Halo, Call of Duty, Starcraft, Bioshock...take whatever you like and look for the bits of innovation, and you will find your examples)

Where games fall short is where they become Cliche or Gimmicky. Cliche is where a game repeats what has been done before without adding anything compelling or new, while the gimmick adds in a new idea that just doesn't pass muster. What I need to point out here is that what separates a Gimmick from a true innovation is the spark of Innovations opposite, iteration. A gimmick falls short because it lacks the kind of testing and exploration that characterizes sequels, just as the iteration and polishing of an old idea without a bit of innovation turns into a cliche.

What to take from this? Well, we need to think about the shape of the games industry kind of like a recipe. When your making a cake, you can't say that eggs, milk, flour or sugar are bad. There all essential. In the same way, you need to have a mix of new IPs and ideas, and polished sequels. You need to explore old concepts more fully, and try new ideas. Simply decrying sequels as lazy will ruin one of video games biggest strengths. Yes, we need new IPs and need to explore new ideas, but we also need to remember that the best games out there are sequels.
 

Mangue Surfer

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It's more or less because of this this I like Dragon Age 2 and Final Fantasy 13. And it's because of this that the rest of the world hate them.
 

Dectilon

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I think you could've found a better game than Portal 2 as an example. I see where you're coming from, but for a sequel Portal 2 did treated its characters well I feel. Even if they eventually make a Portal 3 I don't think I'll look back at Portal 2 and say "that's when it started to go downhill", unless there being a sequel at all counts towards that.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Brilliant article with one potential issue: it's important to recognize that "clueless fans" includes the focus groups who shape today's AAA sequels. I know a lot of people will read this Yahtzee piece and think to themselves, "Yeah, all those DA2 haters are a buncha idiots stuck in the past!", but that's definitely not the point here. A sequel that changes radically for the worse, at the behest of one subset of fans, is even worse than a sequel that merely retreads. The only "good" sequel is one that changes the way we think about an IP through quality additions/alterations to play mechanics and/or storytelling.

This is going to sound cruel, but I think videogame designers are a lot like movie directors, musicians, novelists, etc., in that there's no guarantee they will ever duplicate initial success. Sometimes a guy/gal really only has one or two interesting things to say/show/sing/write, and that's okay. It becomes not okay when they think they've got license to ram another half dozen rehashes (or outright turds) down our collective throats. Put another way: god bless the one-hit wonders who walk away.
 

Xanadu84

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Outright Villainy said:
Woodsey said:
The "surprise!" argument that's supposed to go in Portal's favour (fuck you Chrome, there is a U in there) doesn't really make sense to me - it seems to work on about the same logic as a game being deemed bad because of the unbearable amounts of hype. And as well all know, that's stupid.

As for Glados not being the same in Portal 2, its implied throughout Portal that she did murder everyone in the facility, whilst her methods to psychologically 'undermine' Chell remain about the same.

I can see the argument about story taking over, but I felt they were simply better balanced, and that the moments where the story 'interrupts' are actually moments used to pace the game and ease your puzzle-induced migraine.

And most people and fans are saying its better than the first.

And BioShock 2 is better than BioShock.

*runs away*
Agreed. On all points. Even the Bioshock part.

That's like what, 6 of us?
7. Bioshock 2 was definitely better gameplay, and the story was a natural expansion of the original. The problem was that better or not, the type of people who put Bioshock on a pedestal generally did so because it was so different, and that type of person wasn't so willing to appreciate the polishing of an old idea as opposed to the exploration of a completely new one. I think that basically, though Bioshock 2 was better, it simply wasn't better enough for many people.
 

LostAlone

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Sniper Team 4 said:
I think Half-Life 2 is better than Half-Life. Does that count? I think that's the majority opinion there.

I like sequels in general. Finding out what happens next is always fun for me. I will admit though, sometimes they are done rather poorly.
To say HL2 was 'better' I think is a stretch (they are equally good for different reasons IMO) but it pretty much proves that to make a genuinely great sequel you need to do something different.

The original HL was wonderful for too many reasons to go into, and to put it bluntly HL2 has nothing to do with the original besides some returning cast. Much as I think the plot of the second is a butt load weaker, moving to a completely new and different setting was the best possible move, introducing a completely new set of enemies, weapons and mechanics. In essence it's only a equal because they said it was. If it had been a completely new property it would be equally good tbh. Personally, I think it would have been better in places. The dialogue about the amazing world saving destiny driven Freeman felt comedically over-done and totally not in the spirit of the thing.

I'm not saying HL2 is bad at all. All the awesome new stuff in it made it an amazing game.

And that's how you need to build a sequel. Start off like your making a new game and judge it by those terms. If you were making a new game and ended up thinking 'But they did EXACTLY THAT in game x' then you need to put more in, and thats the same in a sequel. Yes its ok to keep a theme or style, but you must must must have something fresh.

Too many people think that a sequel should exclusively be more of the same, and they are bad people who should be ashamed.

You wanna know one of the best sequels ever made ? System shock 2. Why ? Because its one of the best games ever made.

A sequel should be just as awesome to people who never played the original as to people who did, and that means new unconnected story, fresh new weapons and enemies and new interesting setting. You nod to the first one, and then make your own game the way you wanted to make it anyway.
 

blackdwarf

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"Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any."

proffesor layton.
phoenix wright, ace attorney.
and like some said, there are some of those games.

there are games who succeed to make a better story with the same characters and story idea. but they are with few. usely it are games which are heavily story-based.
 

Dfskelleton

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Jedi Sasquatch said:
Hooray for Animal Farm reference!
"FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAD!" is still one of my favorite quotes to this day.

OT: Once again, I agree with Yahtzee. however, there is one game, however, that has proven to me that fan pleasing can really make a good game: Mortal Kombat (2011).
For years, fans have been asking for Mortal Kombat to return to the 2D fighting plane, alongside asking seperately for a bunch of things that made the series great so long ago. Finally, Ed Boon and Co. agreed, and made the new Mortal Kombat.
Honestly, I've never had this much fun with a Mortal Kombat game.
 

Doomcat

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I enjoy both portal 1 and portal 2....but....

Portal 2 was fun for me, the co-op was something i really liked. the SP was enjoyable but what ruined it for me was one developer commentary box in chapter 9.

note: this is not an exact quote, but this is what they said: "We found that players at this point, would use the excursion funnel and then shoot the wrong portal at the panel, thus causing them to fall and die. we found players got frustrated at this, thinking they had shot the right portal. we made this foolproof by MAKING THE PORTAL SWITCH IF THEY SHOOT THE WRONG ONE thus making it so no matter what, they can't die"

WHAT THE FUCK! If you mess up and shoot the wrong portal ITS YOU'RE OWN DAMN FAULT, don't take this the wrong way but the game shouldn't be like "oh, you did something that would kill you? here let me just fix that, all better? here have a kiss on that booboo.." I don't want to be babied by the game because some people got frustrated.

Not that it should be overly punishing but i mean, come on. it's like if someone shot themselves in the head but the game fixed it by emptying the gun just before you pull the trigger...

its not like i want to die, quite the contrary, but if theres no way to fail whats the point of even playing? i did enjoy the game, yes, but after going through the dev commentary the single player was just ruined for me. i literally can't go play that again because of that.
 

kodra

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Ironically, this post seems to be mostly comprised of nerdrage fueled by a fanboy's massively unrealistic expectations being unmet.
 

LostAlone

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Xanadu84 said:
Outright Villainy said:
Woodsey said:
The "surprise!" argument that's supposed to go in Portal's favour (fuck you Chrome, there is a U in there) doesn't really make sense to me - it seems to work on about the same logic as a game being deemed bad because of the unbearable amounts of hype. And as well all know, that's stupid.

As for Glados not being the same in Portal 2, its implied throughout Portal that she did murder everyone in the facility, whilst her methods to psychologically 'undermine' Chell remain about the same.

I can see the argument about story taking over, but I felt they were simply better balanced, and that the moments where the story 'interrupts' are actually moments used to pace the game and ease your puzzle-induced migraine.

And most people and fans are saying its better than the first.

And BioShock 2 is better than BioShock.

*runs away*
Agreed. On all points. Even the Bioshock part.

That's like what, 6 of us?
7. Bioshock 2 was definitely better gameplay, and the story was a natural expansion of the original. The problem was that better or not, the type of people who put Bioshock on a pedestal generally did so because it was so different, and that type of person wasn't so willing to appreciate the polishing of an old idea as opposed to the exploration of a completely new one. I think that basically, though Bioshock 2 was better, it simply wasn't better enough for many people.
You are wrong and you should be ashamed. Bioshock was a good game because it was a fresh take on the DeusEx/System Shock approach to action RPGs. It had a good plot and lots of cool stuff to offer. Bioshock 2 was just more of the same. And that means it has no good ideas of its own.

If you came to Bioshock having never played its parents, then I can see why more of the same would work for you, because the shooter market is so generic and uninterested. If you have played interesting deeply involving games in the past, and Bioshock was just another installment, then tbh Bioshock came very close to not delivering (lack of balance, irritating scavenger hunts, stupid thing with photos etc) and stole a lot of its good parts and just added a new paint scheme. And that's why Bioshock 2 was dreadful. Because if Bioshock was stealing, number 2 was ram raiding.
 

hyker

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The reason glados changed was because most of the behaviour-controlling sphere's died after you murdered them, plus because of
Caroline

and I don't agree with you on some points, I had million times as much fun with portal 2 once than playing portal 1 ten times
 

barrelroll37

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That is up for debate. While the game has stronger mechanics in some areas, some have argued that it is so easy that compared to the first game its just a button masher. And that it has QTEs that are more stupid than the average ones since it involves only the triangle button, which makes it more button mashing.And as for the story, while u have a valid point others can say that sora has no real character growth compared to the first one. And that goofy and donald feel more like they're just along for the ride than the first one, which had at least a few moments here and there (i.e donald arguing with sora in deep jungle, donald and goofy defending sora at hollow bastion) so its a matter of perspective on that one.